[TEPaul]

"In contrast, I abhor paying the dissheveled degenerate...honestly, in the latter case, I feel like an accomplice."


David Schmidt:

You know, that remark really does identify you as one of these modern people who have basically turned the realities of life squarely on its head. You people wrap yourselves up in guilt assuaging blankets with such words and concepts as "Enabler" or even "Co-Dependency" or "Tough-Love" solutions!

It's all bullshit Mr. Schmidt. Even disshelved degenerate caddies have to eat AND DRINK too, you know? Have you forgotten this?

Furthermore, the dissheveled degenerate caddy-type is very much part of the rich history and glorious tapestry of the game of golf!!

If you don't support it you are nothing more than a anti-purist and a murderer of the TRADITIONS of golf and you should be made to be damned ashamed of your own self-----you, you....self-righteous prig-meister!!

However, the ultimate question of this post is does it or doesn't it need some kind of emoticom like a little round smiley face?

[Sam Maryland]

Any good caddy program will need an appropriate mix of caddies.  You need the pro-jocks for the times in Spring and Fall when the high school and college kids are back in school, and the kids to fill the demand during the peak summer months.  A good program will constantly need to replenish the pool with good young kids as the honor caddies move on.  

Like any business, if the customers, golfers, recognize and appreciate the value of the services provided, they will pay an amount sufficient to bring a quality supply of those services.  Good caddies, like good anything, are not cheap.

Paul O'Connor

Paul - If customers appreciated and valued the service sufficient to bring in a supply of caddies, mandatory caddie rules would be unnecessary.  What is your stance on such programs?

so you are suggesting that we let the laws of good ol' supply-and-demand take over and let the chips fall where they may?  what a novel concept!

Tom Doak, it's always all about the Benjamin's - period.  and mandatory use of caddies is subsidization in its starkest form.  maybe if a club did the opposite, capped the rate at say $35, then the pro's would go elsewhere and the kids would have an opportunity to fill the void.

as for pace of play, all the clubs in our area that have a significant caddy presence also are VERY aggressive about pace of play...it's a non-issue (meaning pace of play with caddies is as fast as any other form).

 

[Kenny Baer]

Kenny, would you feel a little bit better about the caddie fee if you were paying it to a 14 year old who was showing some work ethic and initiative and energy, rather than some dissheveled loser degenerate lush/career caddy?

Personally, I don't mind paying the kid.  In fact, I rather revel in it. 

In contrast, I abhor paying the dissheveled degenerate...honestly, in the latter case, I feel like an accomplice.


[/quote]

I would; but only as long as it was around $30 per bag, my problem is the cost and the fact that unless I pay $50 minimum then I can't play the way I enjoy playing, which is on foot.

[Bill_McBride]

Has anybody talked on this thread about the harsh realities of modern employment law and regulations?

i.e. you can no longer just pay the kid the $50 and he stuffs it in his pocket and heads out back of the caddy shack to lose it in a crap game.

No, there has to be an employer who withholds (and hopefully pays) income tax, federal and state unemployment, FICA, and then pays the employer's half of the total 15.3% FICA, files quarterly and annual tax returns, etc etc.  All of this on pain of severe penalties if not performed.

The employer is also required to provide workers compensation insurance in most states, and most likely general liability insurance as well.

I think there is an industry, or at least a few companies, that have sprung up to handle these details on behalf of clubs, but of course there is another fee for their services.  At my construction company we pay 3% for this service and it is well worth the cost.

[JMEvensky]

Has anybody talked on this thread about the harsh realities of modern employment law and regulations?

i.e. you can no longer just pay the kid the $50 and he stuffs it in his pocket and heads out back of the caddy shack to lose it in a crap game.

No, there has to be an employer who withholds (and hopefully pays) income tax, federal and state unemployment, FICA, and then pays the employer's half of the total 15.3% FICA, files quarterly and annual tax returns, etc etc.  All of this on pain of severe penalties if not performed.

The employer is also required to provide workers compensation insurance in most states, and most likely general liability insurance as well.

I think there is an industry, or at least a few companies, that have sprung up to handle these details on behalf of clubs, but of course there is another fee for their services.  At my construction company we pay 3% for this service and it is well worth the cost.

I've been trying.

Is there any club out there allowing 15 year old non-employee caddies to work without being under the aegis of something like the Evans program?If so,how do you verify that they're complying with independent contractor rules?

[Rick Sides]

I have played a few rounds with a caddy and each time it has been a lot of fun.  Having someone carry your bag, help read putts, and bantering back and forth is a blast.  However, I think the days of most clubs having a  caddies are gone.  Back in the early 1900's when clubs had kids caddy for a quarter a loop are over.  Most clubs now have grown men caddy and it's how they make a living.  Most clubs charge at least 50 to 100 dollars for a caddy and tip which is a cost today that most people can't fork over every round.  I also agree that a lot of people are too lazy to walk and think a cart is much faster- a product of our society "speeding up."   I wish in the future they could use kids again because it gave kids a chance to make some money and learn the game.

[archie_struthers]

 


Sean....I appreciate your thoughtful posts but either I'm off base or not getting thru...

the forecaddies don't have to be mandatory , they are elective but available .....they'll pretty soon know when the players who want them are going to be around...

 even at a club that might not appear wealthy or opulent there's always somebody who's pretty free with their money.  I can assure you that there's more action at the mid-range clubs than in the high end , as gamblling is typically frowned on at Bushwood , but revered at Old Lincoln Muny LOL!   

Like I said , it starts with renewed revereence and respect for the golf professional, and I truly believe we are in a metamorphasis where the game, and playing the game are going to be back in vogue.

I'll  repeat myself again, the forecaddies will not be mandatory.  Some wil take them , some won't. But , without the golf pro getting back in the game so to speak this will not happen.  We have to have less management and more reverence for history and tradition, certainly those that share this treehouse should have a nodding acquaintence with same

 My   first job at Woodcrest CC  (a nice Flynn by the way) started at 11  ended up getting me part time work parking cars at parties in high school , working part time on the greens crew and all sorts of odd jobs for the wealthier members. Actually one of the members let me borrow a vintage jaguar to go to my prom, and we are still friends today .  So, if we find some industrious young kids, they'll find a way to make more of the job than just the $5 mandatory tip for forecaddying.

Methinks many of thou  "dost protest too much " about the cost of  a caddy,  I think Tom D is right on about tipping the guy who brings the clubs to the car ....and don't you think some of the caddies will gravitate to this job , which last  I looked  pays pretty well....perhaps two to three days of mandatory looping would put you first up for the bag drop.

There are ways to do it, and it's not all about carrying at Pine Valley or Seminole for $100 a bag, maybe these places will get a couple great loopers if we teach the kids and give them a shot. I know the college kids we had when I caddied there were very good, having learned at the local clubs how to be seen and not heard from an early age. I'm guessing they aren't quite as good today , or as plentiful ...

For me it's a lot like the no - tipping policy , which I abhor .  But let's not go down that road ...let's stick to TEP's query. 

[JESII]

I know the college kids at Pine Valley were great while I was caddying there...



It sure would be a sad thing to learn that caddying is dead...best job I could imagine a kid having from about 12 years old though high school or even college.

I don't the ranks of caddies would diminish all that much if rates dropped 40%...and it could only help usage at Huntingdon Valley.

[Peter Pallotta]

I've been reading this thread with interest, but no experience whatsoever from either side of the equation.  But it seems to me that if caddying is to be rejuvenated, golfers will need to become as concerned about brightening the day of some 12 year old gap-toothed kid as they are about being expertly guided around a golf course as if they were touring pros. We won't be paying for the latter, so we'll have to be content with the former -- a good kid carrying a golf bag.

Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

We have a good mix of both and I think you're right...the rejuvenation would start with giving the 12 year old a reason to want to be there...

[Sean_A]

Sean....I appreciate your thoughtful posts but either I'm off base or not getting thru...

the forecaddies don't have to be mandatory , they are elective but available .....they'll pretty soon know when the players who want them are going to be around...

 even at a club that might not appear wealthy or opulent there's always somebody who's pretty free with their money.  I can assure you that there's more action at the mid-range clubs than in the high end , as gamblling is typically frowned on at Bushwood , but revered at Old Lincoln Muny LOL!   

Like I said , it starts with renewed revereence and respect for the golf professional, and I truly believe we are in a metamorphasis where the game, and playing the game are going to be back in vogue.

I'll  repeat myself again, the forecaddies will not be mandatory.  Some wil take them , some won't. But , without the golf pro getting back in the game so to speak this will not happen.  We have to have less management and more reverence for history and tradition, certainly those that share this treehouse should have a nodding acquaintence with same

 My   first job at Woodcrest CC  (a nice Flynn by the way) started at 11  ended up getting me part time work parking cars at parties in high school , working part time on the greens crew and all sorts of odd jobs for the wealthier members. Actually one of the members let me borrow a vintage jaguar to go to my prom, and we are still friends today .  So, if we find some industrious young kids, they'll find a way to make more of the job than just the $5 mandatory tip for forecaddying.

Methinks many of thou  "dost protest too much " about the cost of  a caddy,  I think Tom D is right on about tipping the guy who brings the clubs to the car ....and don't you think some of the caddies will gravitate to this job , which last  I looked  pays pretty well....perhaps two to three days of mandatory looping would put you first up for the bag drop.

There are ways to do it, and it's not all about carrying at Pine Valley or Seminole for $100 a bag, maybe these places will get a couple great loopers if we teach the kids and give them a shot. I know the college kids we had when I caddied there were very good, having learned at the local clubs how to be seen and not heard from an early age. I'm guessing they aren't quite as good today , or as plentiful ...

For me it's a lot like the no - tipping policy , which I abhor .  But let's not go down that road ...let's stick to TEP's query. 

Archie

I don't usually presume to think of my posts as thoughtful, but I don't see any other Seans between our posts - tee hee.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't have anything against caddies or caddying and I would most certainly welcome caddies of all classes being available at the clubs I play.  I do use them perhaps once or twice a year if the situation makes sense, just like I use carts once or twice a year.  I could see using caddies more often if they were cheaper especially if the course in question has rules about carts or caddies.  You seem to be talking about private clubs where members nearly always have more money or are willing to set aside more of their money for golf than folks who play public golf.  So long as caddies are the domain of private clubs the idea will never really amount to much except to a significant minority of golfers.  Whether or not you believe folks have the money for caddies is largely irrelevant.  There must be a willingness on the part of golfers to part with their money for caddies.  Inherent in this issue is that caddies have to be seen as good value.  Perhaps I am wrong, but a great many folks don't consider caddies (or fore caddies) to be good value.  Other folks like me might think that they don't want the help of a caddie in terms of figuring out how to play.  That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice.  I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice.  So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.  

Ciao

[C. Squier]

 That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice.  I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice.  So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.  

Ciao

Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....

Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that.  Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round. 

Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream.  That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag.  Same for forecaddying.  Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy. 

[Lou_Duran]

Not broadly.  Too many of us either don't have the money or choose to spend it differently.  A considerable number do not feel comfortable with the servitude aspects of caddying, as employers and employees.  Labor laws make it unattractive for clubs (though some high-end clubs manage around it by using firms who provide "independent contractors").  A large majority of golfers here prefer riding.  Carts make a significant contribution to a club's finances; caddies, typically, do not.

[Sean_A]

 That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice.  I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice.  So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.  

Ciao

Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....

Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that.  Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round. 

Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream.  That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag.  Same for forecaddying.  Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy. 

Clint

Minors and tipped employees don't have to be paid the minimum wage of something like $7.50 this year - though many states have higher minimum wages.  Regardless, I agree that anything consistently less than $40 is a pipe dream and therefore caddying has no chance to become anything like wide spread.  It would be very interesting to ascertain what the average public course green fee in the States so a $40 caddie fee can be put into proper perspective. 

Ciao

Ciao

[Sam Maryland]

 That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice.  I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice.  So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.  

Ciao

Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....

Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that.  Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round. 

Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream.  That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag.  Same for forecaddying.  Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy. 

last time I was at CC of Darien it was $35/bag all-in, kid was probably in 9th grade.  he carried a double.  had no idea what he was doing, but was able to keep up and rake bunkers, that's all we needed.

$70/4hours = $17.50/hr cash on the hip.  no forms to fill out, show up when you want.  pretty sure he was the son of a member.

seemed to work for all involved parties and was one of the few times using a caddy where I felt like I got a reasonable service for the $$ paid.

[John Burzynski]

 That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice.  I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice.  So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.  

Ciao

Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....

Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that.  Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round. 

Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream.  That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag.  Same for forecaddying.  Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy. 

last time I was at CC of Darien it was $35/bag all-in, kid was probably in 9th grade.  he carried a double.  had no idea what he was doing, but was able to keep up and rake bunkers, that's all we needed.

$70/4hours = $17.50/hr cash on the hip.  no forms to fill out, show up when you want.  pretty sure he was the son of a member.

seemed to work for all involved parties and was one of the few times using a caddy where I felt like I got a reasonable service for the $$ paid.

My only question is how consistent is the work?  Are there days when you arrive and have no bags to carry?  Is it typically all 7 days or just weekend / peak times or the occasional big club event?  Does the caddy keep all $35/bag, or does a portion go to the course?

I think that the take caddying is probably up and down over a long period, so the income might not be as large or consistent as it is portrayed here.  I certainly think that if the work was that well-paying, there would be high demand by kids to caddy, they will work about any job if the money is perceived as anywhere near decent. 

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm getting really frustrated here and need help from above.....TEP  ...Cirba >>>Doak >>>>sullivan ....Shivas....Naccarato ....

Of course caddies will typically be at private clubs ...although there are publics that have them...do I hear Pebble Beach ?

For Sean to say whether I think people will pay for them is irrelevant is pretty bold, even if I have been accused of having a room temperature IQ on occasion...for what it's worth this is a discussion group last time I looked.....and the crux of this discussion, the yin and the yang, unfortunately revolves around the economic realities of the equation.

I think Tom asked us    Can American caddying be rejuvenuted??


I've made multiple points on what to do, and done some  extrapolation on on golf's future to some extent in analysing his query.....that being said my vitae as to caddying and the motivatons of kids is pretty extensive, and might  merit a modicum of  courtesy and consideration

ciao   archie

 

[Tim Gavrich]

A friend who's on the golf team with me at W&L runs a little caddy service that is used by a few clubs in and around Louisville, KY, where he lives.  Maybe a model like this could get caddying back on track:

http://gottacaddie.com/

[archie_struthers]

 

Dont think I've ever been too argumentative on site , other than objecting to sticking a big bunker in the middle of the 18th at Twisted Dune .... but  yes  we can what  Joel ?    Tell me that my opinion has no relevance because of your experiences in  the midwest? 

[Mike Sweeney]

even if I have been accused of having a room temperature IQ on occasion...

Archie,

That would mean that you had the highest IQ in the history of The Bongo Room!



Like many things in life, times change. The Bongo room is gone and I think the era of kid caddies is gone except in specific situations. Love the concept, just not sure about practicality.

PS. Don't worry about Sean, he is a Detroit guy living in England speaking Italian. 

[JESII]

Makes me scratch my head when Mike says he thinks the era of kid caddies is gone. I wonder why a kid doesn't need an extra couple hundred bucks in their pocket each summer week anymore...

Match cart and caddy fees somehow and you'll see a great increase in demand...

Re: The Forecaddy - The very small percentage of times I play in a cart with a forcaddy, I see much more value than any caddy carrying my bag, trying to keep up.

[archie_struthers]

 


I guess my beef is that you think the whole world works the same and Seans' daft remark that what anyone , evne me , thinks is immaterial  on a  site like this.....!

...forecaddying  will have to work to promote caddying on a larger scale,  IMHO....I can tell you unequivically that :

!) the average JOe golfer doesn't wnt to walk

2) golf course owners , already reeling from the economy and the failure of  the "Tiger effect "  to  grow participation , need more not  less revenue sources

3)  finances will mandate more  not less cart usage....unfortunately this may spread to private clubs and affect their more liberal walking poliices

4)   Golfer are getting much older....and need the "buggies" to get around
      
5)   the poor will need work ....caddying has always been a haven for same but this has to be viewed with todays economic realities


6) do you really begrudge an old looper his money ?

ps  


by the way ...I hate carts so much that I built a golf course where we discounted the rate 35% if you walked , and couldn't get any traction
from the $$$$$ savings ....how much have you put on the line for same


  

[Mike Sweeney]

Archie, are you in Europe and is it late in the evening there by chance?

Yes, he is eating Italian tonight at Somers Point Pizza.

Sorry Archie, I couldn't resist! 

[archie_struthers]

 


You know, if I knew what TEP called you  meant, I might use it also ...a prig -mesiter eh  !  sounds pretty good

I'm with Sully ,   some of the best caddy experiences are with an active ...sharp forecaddy who can give you yardage ....tend the flag and bunkers...

which many prig-meisters  LOL  neglect

  most importantly a forecaddy finds the golf ball   ...nothing worse for a half decent player than losing a ball that's eminently playable when located....we are talking both pace of play  and  happiness here


also he can keep up  ....right on Sully   ..even a youngster that weighs 95 lbs. soaking wet

ultimately ...for caddying to get off life support in the rest of the world , people are going to look for value  it's cool that the Evans program and charity carry the day in the golf Nirvana that is Chicago...but in the rest of the world  . it's the economy stupid !  (just a colloquialism ..no malice)

You heard more than a few golfers....real golfers ...say that a good forecaddy has value ....it doesn't have to be a tsunami of approval , just plant some seeds and perhaps they will grow!

[Tim Leahy]

Carts don't file work comp claims or require comp insurance or medical benefits. Things have changed from when I caddied thirty years ago and we were paid cash and didn't even get a W-2 form. Unless the club can afford the caddies and there is a demand I see carts around for a long time.

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