[Sam Morrow]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

Like the complaints in Caddyshack, the kids are smoking the grass.

[PCCraig]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

Tom-

Of course caddies do it for the money...it's a job!

You looped at Algonquin in STL correct? I played there over labor day and really enjoyed the course.

Kyle-

First, I wouldn't start making the case that caddy shacks are hot beds for drug use and bad habits. That would be throwing stones in a glass house.

[David_Elvins]

The key to making caddying work is to have caddy's who are very significantly poorer than the people they are caddying for.  

The caddy fee must be reasonably insignifigant to the golfer and significant to the caddy.  

Therefor places where caddy programs are more likely to work are:
-Third and Second world countries.
-Clubs with a very rich membership.  
-clubs with a plentiful supply of teenagers who want work.  

Caddying will probably increase in the forseeable future.  If you are not rich or living in a developing nation, the upcoming depression might have the effect of increasing the supply of caddies and getting the cost down significantly.  People will be so desperate for work that you might be able to get a bag for $30 a round inc tip,  bringing it into the realm of afforadability for members of non high end private clubs.  

[Kyle Harris]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

Tom-

Of course caddies do it for the money...it's a job!

You looped at Algonquin in STL correct? I played there over labor day and really enjoyed the course.

Kyle-

First, I wouldn't start making the case that caddy shacks are hot beds for drug use and bad habits. That would be throwing stones in a glass house.

Pat,

Why? This is a frank discussion about caddying in America, and a good portion of caddy programs with the whole independent contractor tag attract people who, for one reason or the other, would not be able to get jobs elsewhere.

Whether or not you want to admit it, there are caddies out there that are more bad influence than good influence on teenagers. I've seen anything from rolling a joint to complete drug transactions on the golf course during caddy day.

I've also run caddy programs and have told suspect people not to come back because of such shady dealings.

[J_ Crisham]

Kyle,

Are you from the midwest?  Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list?  While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.

Quick story:  My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined).  I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district).  I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior.  I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars."  Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA.  Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.

Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program.  Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up.  They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck.  Or they could just hang out.

Jeff Goldman

Jeff,

Evans Scholars are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. How many caddies actually get the scholarship as a percentage of participation? How does that compare to other similar programs? What is the success rate of those scholars once in school? What opportunity costs are associated with successfully earning the scholarship?

It is one thing to put to how much money is dolled out as a result... but how well is that money being put to use? How does it compete with other similar opportunities?

I am certainly not arguing that caddying is a useless endeavour, but to lament the fact that caddy programs are floundering in the United States comes across as self-serving, self-delusion to the actual contributions country clubs and caddy programs make.

Kyle,  Let me give you my background so you can take my perspective as being somewhat in the know. I am an Evans Scholar alum from Marquette. I won my scholarship in 1982 and graduated in 3yrs. The WGA paid for my first year of Dental School in addition to my undergrad. 3 yrs ago I joined Beverly CC so you could say I've seen both sides of the game. I started at 12 yrs  of age and caddied for close to 10 yrs. My contacts made at BCC are invaluable not to mention that the members treated me as they would a son or daughter. We have the largest number of scholars/alums in the program. About 300 now. Our caddy program has 275-300 kids. They can make about $3-5000 in a summer if they are motivated. My year at Beverly,1982, we had 11 caddys get the scholarship-a very good year. We also have a very dedicated group of WGA directors from Bev that as Jeff knows are tireless workers.  2 are GCA guys! Have we put a man on the moon or in the Whitehouse? Not yet, but as we are currentlyexpanding the program to 1000 active scholars, you never know . As to how well we perform in school-we do damn well-hence the name Scholar! We have produced wonderful professionals in all fields. I hope I am not reading into your comments but until you've been in the program you should not appear to be so critical. This program is the largest private college scholarship in the World! At a school like Northwestern for instance this would be  worth about $200K for the 4 yrs. What does the BSA give a kid monetarily for college?     Wish you well,  Jack

[Kyle Harris]

Jack,

I think you are reading into the comments. I'm not attacking the success of the Evans Scholar Program, but rather this idea that it is doing something great for the country of the game of golf as compared to any other program out there for school-aged children. I have no doubt that any of the Evans Scholars will find success in their lives, but really, the paths to that scholarship are limited to those eager to caddy.

It is a niche scholarship just like any other with many benefits and opportunity costs that go with any other program.

However, the original question as to whether or not American caddying can be rejuvenated brought about the greatness of the Evans Scholarship, somehow. When one considers all the opportunities a teenager has to advance themselves today, caddying and the related trappings is a small and very specific program fraught with uncertain returns on investment of time, money and effort.

[Chuck Brown]

Kyle, I'm not following you at all.

If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate. 

If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree.  It has to be worth their time. 

If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is),  it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.

But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members.  to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.

You disagree with that?

[archie_struthers]

 


what  are you guys missing that Mr. Doak , Cirba et al see so clearly  ,,,

where I grew up the poor kids caddied ,  the members sons who looped never made it , they had camp...music ...other interests ...we had to work  ,

not having children , I'm sure that I don't totally get it, but if I ruled the world they would hang out with their buddies and work , play ball, etc etc , and not  have appointments with  their personal trainers...LOL!  

I honestly think our experience was more fun and maybe more enriching

[J_ Crisham]

Kyle,  At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other  summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is  very special.  
                                                  Jack

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, I'm not following you at all.

If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate. 

If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree.  It has to be worth their time. 

If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is),  it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.

But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members.  to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.

You disagree with that?

Not at all.

But that's only really good for golfers and those with some interest in golf, isn't it?

Archie,

In your day, people of your means didn't have the opportunities they do now.

The marginalized groups today, for the most part, do not have access to caddy programs.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,  At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other  summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is  very special.  
                                                  Jack

Jack,

Take a look at the internship and other opportunities offered to high school students by Universities over the summer. This doesn't include international travel opportunities granted by a number of cultural enrichment programs.

How does an inner city kid get to a caddy program?

[J_ Crisham]

Kyle, I'm not following you at all.

If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate. 

If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree.  It has to be worth their time. 

If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is),  it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.

But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members.  to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.

You disagree with that?

Chuck,  As I stated, the Evans Schoarship is privately funded. Aren't Pell Grants paid with my tax dollars? As I recall these are small sums of money as well, not full rides to college as the Evans is.    Jack             

[J_ Crisham]

Kyle,  At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other  summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is  very special.  
                                                  Jack

Jack,

Take a look at the internship and other opportunities offered to high school students by Universities over the summer. This doesn't include international travel opportunities granted by a number of cultural enrichment programs.

How does an inner city kid get to a caddy program?

They get to the club as we all have for the last 60 yrs,they take a bus,train,ride a bike,walk. Beverly is an inner city club. If you don't think some of the internships are going to dry up in this current economy you are mistaken. The WGAESF had the best year it's ever had last year,hopefully this next year will be the same.    Jack

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,  At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other  summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is  very special.  
                                                  Jack

Jack,

Take a look at the internship and other opportunities offered to high school students by Universities over the summer. This doesn't include international travel opportunities granted by a number of cultural enrichment programs.

How does an inner city kid get to a caddy program?

They get to the club as we all have for the last 60 yrs,they take a bus,train,ride a bike,walk. Beverly is an inner city club. If you don't think some of the internships are going to dry up in this current economy you are mistaken. The WGAESF had the best year it's ever had last year,hopefully this next year will be the same.    Jack

How many inner city kids are heading to college on the Evans Scholarship? What do WGA clubs do to help the marginalized kids that seek to associate themselves with their programs?

[Kyle Harris]

Gentleman,

With all respect, we are getting off topic. I do not wish to argue the relevance of the Evans Scholarship program anymore. As with any opportunity, it is there to those who wish to take it.

That being said, the original question on this thread is about the rejuvenation of caddy programs in the United States. Let's take a look at what caddy programs presently provide caddies:

When a golfer decides to walk, he may take a caddy. The caddy is offered $30-$50 per bag. Participation of golfers is largely dependent on the weather, course conditions, and the ability of the golfer to afford both the round of golf and the caddy. Furthermore, the option to take a cart may exist and provide a more viable economic alternative for the golfer.

The caddy must also compete with other caddies for loops. Caddy programs are open to all who are able to present themselves in manner dictated by the club, and are able to physically handle the labor. Most clubs with caddy programs have adults for whom caddying is a major or significant source of income. The caddymaster is responsible for determining who gets out during the day depending on demand for the caddy.

It is the above that is standing in the way of rejuvenating caddy programs in the US. There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today and frankly, the country as a whole is better off for it.

[Mike Sweeney]

The Evans Scholarship sounds uniquely positioned. I don't think any of the Northeast programs are as established. I still contribute to Rhode Island's Burke Fund, but it is more mom and pop from what I can see in comparison to Evans:

http://burkefund.org/about.html

PS. The best summer job in the world is a mate on a charter fishing boat. During the week, you are responsible for setting up the boat/business with no supervision. Friday at 6AM the boat better be ready or else you are looking for the next job.

The fishing was nothing but fun.

[David_Elvins]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

[Kyle Harris]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.

[Dan Herrmann]

Simple question..

How could the normal "I work for a living" type golfer afford it these days?   My wife was laid off last week, and my pay will probably decrease by about 20%.  The economy is tough and spending more $$$ just won't cut it.  Sorry to be so "exposed" with my situation, but I hardly think it's unique.

Things WILL get better.  If a caddy program is to work timing may be of paramount importance.  If it can be timed with the recovery, it could be a great success. 

[J_ Crisham]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

David,  I couldn't agree more with you. Flipping burgers for minimum wage(which I did in the offseason McD's) sucked versus caddying. The guys I caddied for were the guys who owned the companies where people worked-these were the guys I wanted to learn from.    Jack

[PCCraig]

Jack-

One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.

As a side note, the last time I was down at beverly was for the Chicago Open in 2001. I still remember playing and standing on some of the high points of the course, looking over the skyline of Chicago, and seeing no planes when there are usually dozens in the air at any time. (Sorry I digress).

[J_ Crisham]

Simple question..

How could the normal "I work for a living" type golfer afford it these days?   My wife was laid off last week, and my pay will probably decrease by about 20%.  The economy is tough and spending more $$$ just won't cut it.  Sorry to be so "exposed" with my situation, but I hardly think it's unique.

Things WILL get better.  If a caddy program is to work timing may be of paramount importance.  If it can be timed with the recovery, it could be a great success. 

Dan,  I'm sorry to hear of your current hardships. I hope things recover quickly for you. The average golfer may not have the means but for those that do, I think they can have a profound influence on a young persons development.       Wish you well, Jack

[J_ Crisham]

Jack-

One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.

As a side note, the last time I was down at beverly was for the Chicago Open in 2001. I still remember playing and standing on some of the high points of the course, looking over the skyline of Chicago, and seeing no planes when there are usually dozens in the air at any time. (Sorry I digress).

Pat,  I should know this but was that the year MJ played and Luke Donald won it? Hard to believe Luke outscored you. MJ shot about 90 as I recall. We shall see what you can shoot at Beverly when the weather breaks.                 Jack

[Dan Herrmann]

Jack - I couldn't agree with you more.  Well said.

Thanks!

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey the Evans program and some of the J.Wood Platt  programs are awesome, but  the evolution of society , and child rearing has changed dramatically in the last twenty years.

My sister and brother in law aren't wealthy , but spent ungodly sums on sports and untold miles behind the wheel of their car  driving my niece and nephew all over the Northeast for tennis and soccer...both their children are beautiful young adults now, with my nephew playing college soccer and niece graduated Rutgers after getting  a scholarship...my sis was quite a stud athelete and passed on some good genes  ....but the kids who are lousy still drive all over the northeast ....that's way cool but crazy ....look at the playgrounds where we spent all our time , except in inner cities they are pretty much abandoned


...I got a little off point,,,but none of these kids has time to work , or certainly caddy , as all summer is filled with camps tournaments etc etc   everything in their life is much more organized than I could ever imagine...

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