[TEPaul]

Should it be? If so how?

I'm thinking particularly through structures like some of the caddy programs attached to regional golf associations like Chicago's massive Evans Caddy Scholarship program, Mass's Ouimet and Philadelphia's (GAP) J. Wood Platt?

These regions have done a good job this way for years; should other regions who haven't taken part get involved? If so, how should it be encouraged? Who are the best entities to help encourage it? Should this type of effort be aided somehow by local, state and even the Federal governement in some way?

Could that help encourage somehow far more clubs to do things like at least price their carts at or higher than caddy fees? I doubt anyone or anything could force clubs to do that but what could be done to encourage them to do that?

Some may not like the whole concept of "social engineering" from a government perspective but it's pretty hard to deny that the natural social engineering of caddying throughout golf's history has been a pretty amazing and impressive process of essentially "learning life at a young age."

I realize that impressive world of young caddying way back then did not compete against the cart as it may now but that might not be a good reason to watch it die out to any degree.

I just ran across a guy who is really gungho about this even though he says the effort has been sort of frustrating.

Let's hear your ideas and opinions!

[Sam Morrow]

As much as I hate to say I just don't think caddie in America will be anything more than a niche in the future. I am just as guilty as anyone but we all try to get around the course as quickly as possible and this doesn't jive with taking a caddie. As long as we want to play perceived fast golf and play courses in huge developments with hundreds of yards between holes the caddy won't be mainstream in America.

[TEPaul]

Sam:

That's a good point you make even though one I'm sorry to hear. If anyone who really cares about golf in a general sense thinks about it carefully enough, I doubt they could possibly miss the fact that this total fixation on speed of play on a golf course just might be one of the most deleterious influences imaginable on golf and its future!

[PCCraig]

Tom-

I have caddied in two great caddy towns...Chicago and boston. I think you raise some good points but I think the bottom line is that clubs with carts available all the time for everyone will never have a good caddy program. The best club for caddies that I have been is the TCC-brookline, that is because carts were not allowed unless for a medical exemption at all times, and if you took a cart anytime you had to have a caddy runner along with you. While caddies were manditory on the weekends before 4pm or so, during the week if players wanted to carry their own bag they could, or more likely if they had guests they would just take caddies.

Another club in Chicago I looped at most of the members took carts constantly, and played rounds around 3 hours or bust...but insisted on having a caddy running along at all times, however you better of not lost any of your player's balls.  

I think it boils down to a mindset of a club being proud of a great caddy program.

The idea of if the club would rather have young kids looping for scholarships or men who do it for a profession is a whole other discussion....  

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

That's a good point you make even though one I'm sorry to hear. If anyone who really cares about golf in a general sense thinks about it carefully enough, I doubt they could possibly miss the fact that this total fixation on speed of play on a golf course just might be one of the most deleterious influences imaginable on golf and its future!

I agree with you 100%. I play maybe once a year where I can have a caddie and I always enjoy the hell out of it.

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

Tough call on caddies.  There are several issues going on here, the first of which is that many clubs now rely on the revenue from golf carts to make the numbers work.  I think an effective argument can be made that carts cause damage equal to the amount of money a club would make from cart rentals, but whoever makes that argument better have a lot of back up.  

The second thing is that people think taking a caddie costs too much.  When in the Hamptons this past fall, the caddies ran $100 a bag when you include tip.  That can be a pretty expensive date if you're doing it 100 times a year.  I've had several older people lament to me about how a caddie used to be a dollar a bag.  I'm not sure if it's inflation or not, but I think cost becomes an issue at some point.  I would be curious to know how much a dollar a bag caddie in the 1940s and 50s would relate to today's money.  

I have enjoyed almost all of the rounds I have played with a caddie over the years and I think they add a lot to the experience when you have a good caddie at a great club.  I'm sure there have been situations where some people on this board have been saddled with an inexperienced caddie who wasn't worth what the suggested caddie rate is.  There probably needs to be some differentiation in the rates between an experienced and an inexperienced caddie.  

Sam--

I'm not sure having a caddie slows down a round that much if at all.  Most of my experiences have suggested otherwise.  A lot of it depends on the players as much as the caddies.

[Sam Morrow]

Tom--

Tough call on caddies.  There are several issues going on here, the first of which is that many clubs now rely on the revenue from golf carts to make the numbers work.  I think an effective argument can be made that carts cause damage equal to the amount of money a club would make from cart rentals, but whoever makes that argument better have a lot of back up.  

The second thing is that people think taking a caddie costs too much.  When in the Hamptons this past fall, the caddies ran $100 a bag when you include tip.  That can be a pretty expensive date if you're doing it 100 times a year.  I've had several older people lament to me about how a caddie used to be a dollar a bag.  I'm not sure if it's inflation or not, but I think cost becomes an issue at some point.  I would be curious to know how much a dollar a bag caddie in the 1940s and 50s would relate to today's money.  

I have enjoyed almost all of the rounds I have played with a caddie over the years and I think they add a lot to the experience when you have a good caddie at a great club.  I'm sure there have been situations where some people on this board have been saddled with an inexperienced caddie who wasn't worth what the suggested caddie rate is.  There probably needs to be some differentiation in the rates between an experience and an inexperienced caddie.  

Sam--

I'm not sure having a caddie slows down a round that much if at all.  Most of my experiences have suggested otherwise.  A lot of it depends on the players as much as the caddies.

I don't think a caddie slows it down at all. I think rounds are slowed by golfers who don't know what the hell they're doing.

[John Moore II]

Yes, caddying can be rejuvenated but only if Americans stop being lazy in general and start walking. Stop allowing carts and you can see a rejuvenation in caddys. Otherwise, they're still dead.

[Jed Peters]

Hrm. I think simple economics for 9.5/10 people who play golf dictate no-caddies.

I couldn't fathom paying $50/round at my club extra to have a looper. Or even $30-35 for a "rabbit" carrying around the bag.

Also, the golf courses WANT you to take carts--a GM at a local course (ironically, like a par 62!) said that they "couldn't make it" if they didn't have carts.

[Adam_Messix]

Sam--

That's where I thought you were headed with your original comment....

[Sam Morrow]

Sam--

That's where I thought you were headed with your original comment....

I was but probably didn't express it well enough.

[archie_struthers]

 

Hello Tom, como esta?

Perhaps the cost of the looper has gotten out of control relative to their respective talents....

Having cut my caddying teeth at Woodcrest CC , we had loads of young kids hanging around and eventually only the strong survived ......we weren't paid much when we started, due to our inexperience and age but we learned by hanging around the older guys and learning as apprentices to them on the golf course..Imagine the horror today if a kid went to work for three or four weeks and didn't get paid ...oh mY  LOL

my guess is  not only would most clubs  not alow us to work at 11 or 12 but most parent 's wouldn't allow their children to ride their bikes over hill and dale to get to work..or hang out with  old men who drink , smoke , gamble and play cards lol  ....what a shame as we built so many great relationships thru caddying and learned lots more about getting snookered

When the costs of a caddy are much greater than a cart ..the caddy eventually gets phased out ...it's a fact at all but the richest clubs ..I'd like to see a caddy get say $5 a bag  from the  group  and  be a FORECADDY with duties first and formost find all golf balls , keep an eye on everyones clubs , rake the bunkers,  know the yardages for second and third shots  etc etc.   generally just help the group get around and enjoy the day

this would work at almost all clubs ...and perhaps start a whole new legion of loopers

just need some relaxation from the clubs and the parents but it won't be easy  

[Joel Zuckerman]

Hrm. I think simple economics for 9.5/10 people who play golf dictate no-caddies.

I couldn't fathom paying $50/round at my club extra to have a looper. Or even $30-35 for a "rabbit" carrying around the bag.

If you couldn't fathom $50, I suppose $70 is out of the question...the going rate at my out-of-town club, where caddies are mandatory.

[Rob Rigg]

I grew up caddying at one of the most exclusive clubs in Toronto, certainly the most expensive to join, and the caddy program was quite good.

Unfortunately two things did us in - 1) carts 2) aging membership

It got to the point where you would be lucky to get out for one round on a weekend and were only guaranteed at bag during club tournaments.

We would make about $10-$20 a round depending on experience plus tip which was usually $5-$10.

If you think about it on an hourly basis, you may be lucky to pull in minimum wage, and that does not count all the down time when you are sitting around.

Do you really think there are a lot of kids out there these days that would WANT to caddy?

It involves exercise, people management skills, etiquette, etc. I can think of a lot of other places where a teenager could make more money for a lot less effort.

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea, wish I could afford a caddy (if they were even available), but cannot see any rejuvenation unless something REALLY changes in the modern American game.

[Mike Nuzzo]

If I owned a club pull carts would be $5, Caddies $20 + tip and carts $50 per person - unless disabled - there would be a handful of single rider ones.
The green fee would be about $40.
There would be no cart paths.
The caddies would get some lessons, playing privileges, range balls and free sodas.
Cheers

[JMEvensky]

Unfortunately,no chance.

We tried but couldn't really get any traction.Few,if any,really want to walk around a golf course in the heat in Memphis.Add to that the ~ $75 caddie fee and it was a non-starter.

In addition to the problem of having members pay the extra $75,we couldn't get many kids willing to work for $18.75/hour.Granted,we're located in an area where kids aren't asked/forced to work by their parents.The "perk" of course access isn't really worth much when all the parents are members of clubs themselves.

IMO,the only way it works is if a club is willing to subsidize the program.For us,a conservative figure was going to be ~ $40,000/year.This assumed having caddies always available and took the hit to cart fee income into account.We don't have a membership that really understands why caddies could be beneficial.

One other problem is the employment laws.We found that we'd have to hire them as club employees.No independent contractor BS.That meant all the payroll/insurance/liability issues along with pretty strict rules about job description.

I envy those clubs whose cultures allow them to have thriving caddie programs.I think they're going to soon become relics.That will be a tragic loss.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'd also sell the caddies with what they do and what benefit they add to a round.

Forecaddy - speeds up play.
Find lost balls - speeds up play.
Tend the flag - speeds up play.
Carries bag - speeds up play.
Manages putter & driver - speeds up play.

[JMEvensky]

I'd also sell the caddies with what they do and what benefit they add to a round.

Forecaddy - speeds up play.
Find lost balls - speeds up play.
Tend the flag - speeds up play.
Carries bag - speeds up play.
Manages putter & driver - speeds up play.

Mr. Nuzzo,you're 100% right in everything you've said.However,I just don't think you can convince the average member/golfer that there is value added.They just won't pay for something they can't remotely understand.It's like trying to explain Vermeer to Ray Charles.

I once read on here the late,great John Kavanaugh comment that the reason most people don't like caddies is because they're too cheap to use them.I don't think he was totally wrong.

[TEPaul]

"One other problem is the employment laws.We found that we'd have to hire them as club employees.No independent contractor BS.That meant all the payroll/insurance/liability issues along with pretty strict rules about job description."

Jeff:

When did your club look into this? If it was quite a while ago you may've been looking at that IRS resolution and that US Congressional bill (sponsored by Congressman Dan Burton) that was intended to make all caddies part of OSHA or whatever and no longer independent contractors. The bill did not pass so as far as I know caddies are still considered to be independent contractors and do not need to be legally considered as club employees and such thing.

The supreme irony is apparently Congressman Dan Burton thought he was helping caddies by getting them benefits and some protection and such but the reality is that would have been so expensive for most all clubs it in essence would have killed American caddying completely.

So even if Burton's heart seemed to have been in the right place for caddies it's a damn good thing his Congressional bill never passed into law.

[Jim Tang]

I believe the local club should be most responsible for building caddie programs.  The local club is the entity most familiar with their membership and the particular needs of that membership.  I don't think a national group or governing body would be effective.

The club must train their caddies properly, must evaluate them on a regular basis and provide follow up training.  Caddies should be outfitted in some type of standard uniform.  They should be paid immediately after the loop is completed. Their pay should be better than what a typical summer job pays.  Their should be one individual at the club directly responsible for the caddie program.

Clubs need to consciously promote the program and clearly state that one of their goals as a club is to build a reputable caddie program.  The club should look to admit new members who lean toward walking and would enjoy taking a caddie on a regular basis.  This might be the single most important aspect when trying to build a consistent caddie program.  Furthermore, members should be encouraged to provide honest feedback on a caddie and his/her performance after a round.

I believe 4 guys walking, each with their own caddie, will play at least as fast as 4 guys riding.  In many instances, taking a caddie will speed up play, not slow it down.  Caddies allow for better enjoyment of the game and allow for players to forget many of the mundane tasks that golf requires, such as raking traps, tending the flag and finding lost balls.  Instead, players can walk down the fairway together, have a conversation, and ultimately, have a more personal and connected experience with each other.

[Mike Wagner]

This is a great subject.  Unfortunately, we've had the same experience in the Northwest.  We've had a couple resurgences of caddy programs that quickly fizzled.

On top of the cart, here's a few things I see as:

1.  The social shift:  It was cool 20-30 years ago for just about anyone at a private club to take a caddy.  Not so these days - the average private club member would look significanty out of place showing up with a caddy.  The allure is just not there any more - it's out of style. 

2.  Bag technology - Quite fankly, if you're a walker and  bag makes you tired, you should probably be riding.  If a push cart's your pleasure, then so be it.  The point is that the patent red leather spalding bag is gone, and the double strap (hate 'em) 1.5 ounce bag is here.  Hiring someone to carry a sun mountain double strap bag is a little silly, isn't it. 

As we get further down this road, there are less young people interested in learning how to become really good caddies.  I took one at Bandon recently - and there's some good ones there - but the guy I had was claiming himself as "A" product - and was far from it.  Assuming I need a read....biggest peeve of them all.  Don't give advice unless asked!! 

I'd love to see a better national program - the Evans scholarship is an incredible program aimed at helping hard working, deserving young people (not hand-outs...entirely diferent subject).  I've seen some tremendous people come through the Evans program to give back tons to their community and golf.

[JMEvensky]

"One other problem is the employment laws.We found that we'd have to hire them as club employees.No independent contractor BS.That meant all the payroll/insurance/liability issues along with pretty strict rules about job description."

Jeff:

When did your club look into this? If it was quite a while ago you may've been looking at that IRS resolution and that US Congressional bill (sponsored by Congressman Dan Burton) that was intended to make all caddies part of OSHA or whatever and no longer independent contractors. The bill did not pass so as far as I know caddies are still considered to be independent contractors and do not need to be legally considered as club employees and such thing.

The supreme irony is apparently Congressman Dan Burton thought he was helping caddies by getting them benefits and some protection and such but the reality is that would have been so expensive for most all clubs it in essence would have killed American caddying completely.

So even if Burton's heart seemed to have been in the right place for caddies it's a damn good thing his Congressional bill never passed into law.

We played around with it 2-3 years ago.I spent a lot of time on the phone with the guy at the WGA who runs the Evans program(I can't remember his name).He had a lot of good suggestions about how to get started but,ultimately,the culture at my place wouldn't allow it.

As to the Burton proposal,it really wasn't a consideration.Our concern was the grey area of independent contractor and the possibility of blowback(we've had other independent contractor issues).The fear was that we would have ultimate responsibility for guys on our property without a real good way to protect ourselves.That usually leads to a check being written.

As to specifics,we wanted to hire area kids(an entire lacrosse team),some of whom were members' children and some younger than 16.The idea was that we would use a group of them for not only caddying but in the bag room and,maybe,valet parking.The theory was that if I could sell enough people on the extra service provided by a minimum-wage army,the subsidy for the caddie program would get "overlooked".IMO,if you don't always have a caddie available,you're dead.Hence,the minimum-wage army.I didn't want to ever have a member say that he wanted to walk but nobody was there to carry his bag.

I guess if a club wanted to have a caddie program badly enough,there are ways to accomplish it.However,it's going to cost SOMEBODY.Either the club itself or through "inflated" caddie fees.At my place,I can't get a critical mass of guys to try.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I'm not sure what the future holds in store for those who depend on caddying for a living, but for high school and some mature junior high students, I think it can definitely work.  That's the way it is for my caddies, and those who excel end up getting three or four loops a week throughout the summer. 

The fees are more modest - $30 plus tip for an "A" caddie (they usually get $40 to $50 total) - and only slightly more expensive than a cart fee.  For the extra service they provide, it's a real winner and more and more of the club's members and guests have employed them in the last two years.

Will caddying ever be what it once was?  I doubt it, but I think there are definitely more places that could use the system that works for us.  It's a great opportunity for the kids and provides a great service to the members, all at a relatively low expense.  They need to be great kids and well-trained, but they're out there.

[Cliff Hamm]

The key to a viable caddy program is guaranteed income.  At many clubs the caddies simply don't get out even if arriving early in the morning.  If clubs could arrange for caddies in advance and have them arrive 1/2 hour before a loop the cost of a caddy could be less and the popularity of caddying would rise.  A caddy seems expensive from the player's perspective, but the hourly wage is quite low considering wait time and the number of occasions that caddies arrive for work and go home empty handed.

[Chris Cupit]

Caddies are dead except for a small niche market.  It is simply too expensive for 99% of golfers to justify.

My club I play at requires caddies even if you take a cart and we have a good program.

If I go and play I usually play 36.  At $75 per round I spend $150 for a day of golf not including the lunch that day, a sleeve or two of balls and a glove.  That is an expensive day of golf but I don't play much so when I do I treat myself.  

Anyway, for the caddy he was at the course at 7:00 AM.  (One hour before the first golfer heads out).  He waits while I warm up and I tee off at 8:30.  I'm done around 12:00, have lunch and meet my caddy back at the tee at 1:00 for another loop.  I'm done around 4:30 and by the time the clubs are cleaned, put in my car and we settle up the caddy is leaving around 5:00.  Assuming ten bucks for lunch and snacks, he takes home $140 bucks or $14 an hour--not exactly getting rich and he's put in 36 holes.

So I think most would say that type of golf is expensive when you do the per round math (dues plus rounds)and the caddy while receiving a very fair wage is not getting rich either.  Also as an independent contractor he only gets paid when he works, has no employer health care benefits and must suffer through rain outs and many guys who don't pay well and can be a pain in the ass.

At a resort maybe a guy treats himself to a caddy or at a club that has guys willing to spend a lot of money per round for golf and are healthy enough to do so.

Mike N:
The club I own--walk anytime for free, 18 hole pull cart is $7, 9 hole pull cart is $4, (no caddies )  $50 guest fee except for juniors for whom it is $5

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