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J_ Crisham

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2008, 02:04:01 PM »
Any time that I have been there the courses have been crowded...so considering the rates I think they are making some money.

You have to make a tee time two months out for a summer WS tee time @ $300+
Pat,  I will be interested to see if the long advance bookings are seen this summer given the economic climate. There will be a lot less business golf being played there  as expense accounts are tightened. Time will tell.                     Jack

Jeff Goldman

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 02:29:13 PM »
When Eddie and I started going to play the only course there it was the first year it opened. 1989 (I think). The GCA was a huge draw because the quality of the available golf in Chicago, was to say the least, the least. Yes, we'd play Pine Meadows and Cog Hill frequently, but compared to the River-Valley course, they were woefully inadequate for inspiring accessible golf.

JWinick- When the decision was made to bastardize the original course, I didn't realize how good the original was until I found this forum and learned what made quality gca. Looking back on that original, compared to the current River course, epitomizes the difference between a great golf course and a collection of 18 holes. That's the real only knock on the resort.






Greetings Adam,

Hope things are good.  I got to admit I do not understand your affection for the original Kohler 18 given what I know about your general outlook on GCA.  1,2, and 4 are quite artificial holes with big artificial mounding.  Same goes for 14 and 15.  Meanwhile, 5-13 seem to fit well with the property without as much of that stuff, though the walk to 5 is bad.  Same artificiality exists on 11, 12 and 13 of the Meadow/Valley (and maybe 15 too), though the rest of the Meadow that was part of the original course is inspiring.  Except for the two long walks, I don't see how adding 5-13 of the River course detracted from the experience.  In fact, these holes eliminate some of the "resort" feeling I get from the course.

Best,

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2008, 03:55:14 PM »
I used to go out to the construction site of the original course, when I was first getting interested in GCA.  At that time era the only other significant course being built around here was University Ridge and a rather contrived place called Fox Hills National.  Following those construction sites periodically sure didn't give me any special insight other than how complicated construction sites were on the mega costly side of the equation, and the scope of what drainage really was about in high end GCA.  Those projects gave me no insight into minimalism and the art of clever and conservative GCA. 

None of the folks above have mentioned the impact of having the Women's US Open at BWR composite course at the very same month Kohler opened and debutted to the world, Whistling Straits.  I was lucky enough to get to play in the first organized event (a Merrill Lynch golf tournament) the 2-3 weeks before the Women's open.  There were several key golf dignitaries there being introduced to the course, and there is where I met Pete and Alice Dye on the 17th hole for an animated Pete discussion of how he built it and round of pics. The thing about that time was the marketting effort that was widespread and full court pressed at that time.  Press releases of the enormous scope of the WS project were everywhere, and clever quotes by Kohler like: "I gave Pete Dye and unlimitted budget - and he exceeded it" were all well placed hype for the marketting of something very lavish and special for this area.  Then the week of the US Women's, a very special outting was organized to put WS on the highest awareness when they had George HB Bush and many dignataries play a 30K a foursome event to raise $$$ for the fledgling first tee program.  So the reason for Kohler's success has alot to do with marketting. 

Then, I'll say this... I'd love to see a real accounting for where the unlimitted funds for building the WS course came from, at the bottom line.  The land was filled with many various mini toxic waste designated clean-up sites as identified by the Bush era EPA.  As I understand it, there were significant funds available to clean up those multi-mini polluted sights created by practice dive bombing and the chemicals associated therein the ordinance, as it was used to train WWII navy pilots (maybe even Bush).  I don't think it hurt that fellows like Kohler with there enormous fortunes have the social and maybe political connections to out market an out capitalize (maybe even without using too much of their own money as opposed to federal funds) to take on mega projects like WS, BWR and such. 

But, no one can deny the absolute passion and vigor in which Herb Kohler pursues golf.  I heard a story of how fanatical he is in a crony game they supposedly call the "bounce game" where they go at the spur of the moment on their jets to far off places when the weather conditions may be at what most would consider the worst, to play the brutal conditions of golf course and nature against man...  All while carrying something like a 16 handicap.  You can't say the man don't love golf. 

And, he didn't use Dye (but Liddy- a Dye associate) to do the Duke's course while following something of his original hotel resort then golf course developement model, after buying TOC hotel.  I don't care for much of the Kohler family history and management philosophy backround, being a labor man, but one can't deny Kohler is a real sharp and enterprising cookie who knows how to market and connect to get his visions accomplished.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2008, 04:39:38 PM »
Dick:

Yes, the Kohler golf folks have been very good on the marketing end of things -- anyone who can demand top-shelf prices for plumbing knows how to market!

I don't recall, having like you followed the projects pretty closely, whether the Straits property in particular received any clean-up money from the state or feds (it was an old military site). Wisconsin has a pretty good "brownfield" program aimed at providing clean-up dollars as sort of seed money for local development projects, but I don't recall Kohler tapping that. I do know there was a bit of a tiff between Kohler and the DNR (environmental oversight agency, for all non-Cheeseheads, or "Da.. near Russia" for those who don't like their take on things) about some wetlands that Kohler/Dye wanted to convert into one of the par 3s hugging the shoreline. And, of course, there were a few rumblings that your good friend former Gov. Tommy Thompson leaned on the DNR to approve the wetlands "switch" (this was the era of Bush I's push for "no net loss" of wetlands), and even more rumblings after one of the state papers dug up some campaigns contributions from Kohler (and maybe some other company officials) to Thompson (no matter that the Kohlers have been donating to Republicans since the days of fire being invented...).

In the end -- and this is GCA-related! -- the wetlands "switch" was what led to the development of the somewhat notorius par 5 5th hole at the Straits, now holding a prominent spot on the "out of place" thread elsewhere on the board. Dye himself has said the 5th is the reason why he and Kohler were able to build the course -- the wetlands area surrounding that hole was developed as part of the switch that resulted from the coastal wetlands being lost to a par 3.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2008, 04:57:13 PM »
Jeff,
 
 
Quote
I got to admit I do not understand your affection for the original Kohler 18 given what I know about your general outlook on GCA.  1,2, and 4 are quite artificial holes with big artificial mounding.  Same goes for 14 and 15.  Meanwhile, 5-13 seem to fit well with the property without as much of that stuff, though the walk to 5 is bad.  Same artificiality exists on 11, 12 and 13 of the Meadow/Valley (and maybe 15 too), though the rest of the Meadow that was part of the original course is inspiring.  Except for the two long walks, I don't see how adding 5-13 of the River course detracted from the experience.  In fact, these holes eliminate some of the "resort" feeling I get from the course.


I can understand your confusion. It's weird, but Pete seems to get a pass on the artificial stuff. Maybe because he does other things so well? I don't know. I'm not articulate enough to accurately describe my sentiments in words. It's likely all personal, since most of my comments and opinions are from memory. Back when I played there I knew bubkus about GCA, or, even gave it a fleeting thought other than who designed the courses I was playing.

For me, the journey of the original 18 holes was chocked full of variety and dichotomy between the natural and the artificial. From the first hole, with the natural river on the left and the fake mounding on the right, Pete set the tone. The current 14 and 15 are great examples of the dichotomy and I would argue 15 (Sand Pit) appeared as though it could've been natural. But there was just something special to that ebb and flow of the original 18. Maybe it was the natural v. artificial sequencing or juxtapositions that made the journey so special?  The original 13th (Chimney)and 14th (Natures course) also follow that same artificial v. natural sequence. While I too enjoy many of the new holes on the River course (5-13), upon reflection, the 18 hole course just does not stand up to the original, as a golf course. As a compilation of 18 holes, it may be superior under a hole by hole analysis. But here in lies the difference, albeit a fine one between what I sense when I'm out there, and how many evaluate courses. Call me full of shit (not you Jeff) but that's how I see the importance of the routing and how that makes one feel when playing a very good course.  Natures Course from reverse



Couldn't slight the next one...Mercy


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2008, 05:06:20 PM »
I was around Blackwolf Run just a little bit when it was built.  At that time, Mr. Kohler knew virtually nothing about golf or golf architecture; he interviewed a couple of architects, liked Pete's hands-on approach, and made his choice.

The first course was successful, and Herb just liked Pete, and the place got a lot of ink, so he kept going back to Pete.  He did not listen to the usual conventional wisdom of golf marketing guys because he just avoids all of those guys entirely.

Mike Mosely

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2008, 05:11:10 PM »
I might be wrong, but isn't Paiute also all Pete Dye?

Mark Smolens

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2008, 05:44:34 PM »
There used to be a great package rate over Memorial Day where you basically got your room and replays for free if you paid for one round a day.  By playing the replays on the River and Straits, you could get 5 or 6 rounds in over the long weekend without actually destroying your wallet (of course this was before the $350 greens fees they're now charging).  I'm hopeful that the economy might cause this type of special to reappear.  Kohler's a fun place to spend three days doing nothing but playing golf -- and it doesn't take nine hours to get there!

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2008, 05:50:36 PM »
I might be wrong, but isn't Paiute also all Pete Dye?

Yes--like Kohler and Casa de Campo, Paiute is all Pete.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2008, 06:52:45 PM »
I haven't played everything in Kohler, but there is one reason for it's success that hasn't been mentioned previously: There are things for a non-playing spouse to do.

This topic has come up on here before. I have a non-golfing significant other and it would be much easier to sell the idea of going to a really nice resort where she can have a decent time while I play golf and a day or two in Chicago a lot easier than I could sell, 'Let's go to this awesome golf mecca called Bandon Dunes, but you might get bored.'



Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2008, 07:00:27 PM »
is it successful?  or is herb kohler so rich it doesn't matter.  just wondering

I thought this was a good question - is it successful as a 4 course property?
Is the hotel so profitable it doesn't matter?

He did not listen to the usual conventional wisdom of golf marketing guys because he just avoids all of those guys entirely.

Who are these golf marketing guys?
They seem to get around a lot...
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2008, 07:23:45 PM »
I too like Mike N. thought that whether this place makes money or not was a good question.  I suspect we have only speculation.  But please understand with land costs and high end maintenance, those rooms better be full regularly for this place to cash flow.

One thing in their favor.  I suspect by closing in the winter, it helps.  Love those courses that fill up in the summer and then button up tight in the winter.  Seaonal employees, the best.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Phil Benedict

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2008, 07:38:45 PM »
The first course was successful enough to build the second, the second to build the third and so on.  That's all we can know given the lack of public information. 

It has the aura of a successful place (hosting majors, generally favorable publicity), but then again so did Bernie Madoff.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2008, 07:41:55 PM »
Because he is a good businessman!  Very few golf properties are successful that are not treated for what they really are, which is a business.  As this economy unfolds, we will soon find out which ones have been run well and which ones have not.  And unfortunately the outcome for many will not just depend on whether they have the best golf course or the best architect!   
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:46:57 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jim Colton

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2008, 07:56:19 PM »
I suspect that they've done very well.  How else do you explain being able to charge $340 a round for the Straits course?  They also have a semi-private membership that has 300+ members from what I recall and has raised its initiation from $65k to $125k.

The greens fees have gone up exponentially each year, probably because they've been full up every year with their existing rates...why not charge more?  The other courses, especially MV and Irish have a little more availability and do offer 2-for-1 deals every now and then.  I don't recall ever seeing similar deals on the Straits.

I'm interested in seeing if their rates change in 2009 under this miserable economy, particularly because my wife and I are planning on spending our 10-year anniv there.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:58:22 PM by Jim Colton »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2008, 08:20:59 PM »
I'd ask all you folks that have played any or all of the Kohler courses, once, twice, multiple times... did you always pay right out of your pocket, no perks, no tax write-offs, just your own ping?  If not your $$$, who paid your freight?

I'll admit, once a perk - twice my pocket book, ond once I actually don't remember the exact arrangement if got a reduced having been with a rater. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 08:23:04 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

PCCraig

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2008, 08:36:32 PM »
Any time that I have been there the courses have been crowded...so considering the rates I think they are making some money.

You have to make a tee time two months out for a summer WS tee time @ $300+
Pat,  I will be interested to see if the long advance bookings are seen this summer given the economic climate. There will be a lot less business golf being played there  as expense accounts are tightened. Time will tell.                     Jack

Jack-

Well I will be there for a week this October...for my honeymoon. So they have my business!
H.P.S.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2008, 08:48:02 PM »
Dick, I always paid. But considering most of my visit were before 1993, except for the one year I met you and was back home for my Birthday.

I seem to recall playing on average $70 a round.  I think that was $100 green fee and a $40 replay in 91'-92'. Eddie and I made several day trips from Chicago, justifying the 2 1/2 hr drive as well worth the effort.

I do remember the first year or two, they offered a 10 play pass for a considerable discount.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

J_ Crisham

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2008, 08:53:00 PM »
Pat,   Congrats on the big day! Whatever the cost ,view it as a downpayment for a lifetime of happiness! I proposed to my wife at Pebble and honeymooned in Scotland /Ireland - 10 rds in 14 days! Celebrated our 10th last May in Carmel and managed to squeeze in some golf with some GCA lads in the area. You only go around once so do it right!   Jack

JWinick

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2008, 08:54:44 PM »
There is no one I envy more than Jack.   Jack disproves the theory that a married men in America has less freedom than a single man in Communist China.

Pat,   Congrats on the big day! Whatever the cost ,view it as a downpayment for a lifetime of happiness! I proposed to my wife at Pebble and honeymooned in Scotland /Ireland - 10 rds in 14 days! Celebrated our 10th last May in Carmel and managed to squeeze in some golf with some GCA lads in the area. You only go around once so do it right!   Jack

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2008, 09:08:14 PM »
Jon,  As you have no doubt heard me say many a time-the most important decision you make in life is the partner you chose! You work hard ,you play hard! One most always strive to play as many great courses as quickly as you can-old age is not the time to start tackling the top 100! ;)
                                                                            Jack

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2008, 09:48:39 AM »
Shivas,
Nice.
Where did you get 35,000 x 4?
That is the number that we're asking about.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2008, 10:20:53 AM »
Just a guess, but Kohler is so successful for the same reason that Bandon is, i.e. because both Mr. Kohler and Mr. Keiser are sane human beings, i.e. they're the sensible type of businessmen who don't let their fortunes go to their heads and get them thinking they can do no wrong. It just doesn't feel that there was much 'vanity' in either of these vanity projects..and this sanity trickles down into all aspects of the operations.

Peter

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2008, 11:21:57 AM »
To expand on Jeff Shelman's previous point--while Bandon caters to purists--who must walk, and have few options other than golf and more golf, the Kohler clientele is culled from a much wider swath of vacationers--walk or ride, eat pub food, or--5-star dining, and--have access to a state-of-the-art spa (with Kohler fixtures, of course!) tour the Kohler factory, but Kohler fixtures and faucets in their on-site store, with an additional wide range of shopping options, numerous other recreational amenities, and lastly, the imprimatur of being the Midwest's only 5--Diamond Resort--a real seal of approval for the cognoscenti, I would imagine.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why Is Kohler So Successful?
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2008, 11:31:15 AM »
It just doesn't feel that there was much 'vanity' in either of these vanity projects..

Peter

Peter:

My hat from the '04 PGA held at WStraits has a funny face on it that bears a remarkable resemblence to Mr. Kohler...

Kohler has a lot of ego invested in his golf projects. Not that there's anything wrong with that! He's well-known for throwing his weight around with PGA and USGA officials to lure tourneys to the courses. But the Kohler courses succeed, I think, largely because Kohler was a very smart businessman long before he got into high-end golf courses.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:53:16 PM by Phil McDade »

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