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Jay Flemma

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2008, 03:13:41 PM »
Tom,

I could not agree more. 

These are documentaries.   They are not about how this GCA or that GCA can transform themselves into academy award winners but simply let you explain and illustrate.

There is a ton of rich subject matter.

That's the whole point, no its not.

Do you guys think it's some Golf Course Architecture tutorial on how Tom "micro-designed" the course?  Do you think you're going to learn anything you didn't know already?  Guess again.  It's a superficial thing for the casual fan who wants a tchotchke, it's a bauble, and a high priced one at that.  The Sebonack one is much better, IMO.


Jeff, of course I didn't think that about the CG.

If it were $10, maybe, but $30?  even the special edition, 2-disc set with hours of extras of a big theatrical release SLRP's for $25.

As Tom said he cant cram everything into an hour, let alone half an hour.

Tom Naccarato

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2008, 03:33:14 PM »
Jay,
For YOU, it may not be worth anything. For others, and I repeat again since your only doing selective reading--which is exactly what I do when I skim through your error--filled.....ahemmmm...writing--the price of having this DVD of any footage of Tom, David and others, is simply worth its weight in gold years from now when its worth something.

--Did you know that there are stereo vision slides of Lakeside when it was in its grandest stage from the mid-1920's?

--What would Tom Paul do if he could actually hear or see a conversation of any kind with Max Behr?

--How about this one: Film of Captain Thomas in his rose garden in Beverly Hills?

Do you know what that stuff is worth to some of us today? And I'm not talking about monetary value!

Jay, you need to drop this. Your looking.....well Jay, your looking rather ignorant.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2008, 03:54:35 PM »
Quote from: Tom Naccarato link=topic=37843.msg781860#msg781860 date=1229373194

Jay, you need to drop this. Your looking.....well Jay, your looking rather ignorant.
[/quote

Tommy,
How can one be considered ignorant for merely placing a different value on a commercial item than you would?

This board is all about sharing personal experiences and opinions, not name-calling of those with whom you not agree.

Jay, I don't think you're "looking rather ignorant," at least not in this matter.  ;)
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Naccarato

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2008, 04:10:33 PM »
Kyle,
Are you too having a case of some selective reading? ;)

Go back and read what I've been writing--this time more carefully. I think I've made a pretty good statement regarding the DVD's worth. If Jay doesn't want to buy the DVD, that's his right. But don't critique it negatively when its worth is a great value to others. And that's where I've proved my point time and time again on this thread.

I don't want to come off negatively here, and this isn't an attack, but more of a reason why recordings of these architects are important, and most entertaining. Regardless of what Jay may or may not think its true value is. Jay on countless occasions makes inaccurate statements regarding clasic golf architects. If he had a video--maybe he would learn something from hearing it for himself? This way he could....ahhhhemmm...write the more accurate details.

(I could go into the Biarritz green stuff at Yale #17 for example. Jay threatened to sue and contact employers on the that one.)

Go read more carefully Joe Hancock's post regarding a profit in this--there is no BIG money to be made--this DVD isn't Batman--The Dark Knight like Jay thinks it is. The cost to make the video; the crew, everything is more of a money loser if not a high priced gamble, and the producers probably knew that but wanted to do it anyway just so they could have it on tape. For me, once again--its all well worth it.

If Jay wants to actually critique this, have him discuss what he doesn't like so about the video, the angles, the music; the lack of content so then he can display his true discourse. But honestly his is a shoot-from-the-hip "don't buy it because its too expensive" critique that has little merit or accord for the trouble that went into producing it. You know, I've been accused many times about shooting-from-the-hip on this website, but at least I can back it up why. Instead he has to rely on Tom being coy that he doesn't like being in front of a camera for four hours! ;)

Mr. Doak, we are ready for your close-up!

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2008, 04:25:19 PM »
Kyle,
Are you too having a case of some selective reading? ;)

Go back and read what I've been writing--this time more carefully. I think I've made a pretty good statement regarding the DVD's worth. If Jay doesn't want to buy the DVD, that's his right. But don't critique it negatively when its worth is a great value to others. And that's where I've proved my point time and time again on this thread.

I don't want to come off negatively here, and this isn't an attack, but more of a reason why recordings of these architects are important, and most entertaining. Regardless of what Jay may or may not think its true value is. Jay on countless occasions makes inaccurate statements regarding clasic golf architects. If he had a video--maybe he would learn something from hearing it for himself? This way he could....ahhhhemmm...write the more accurate details.

(I could go into the Biarritz green stuff at Yale #17 for example. Jay threatened to sue and contact employers on the that one.)

Go read more carefully Joe Hancock's post regarding a profit in this--there is no BIG money to be made--this DVD isn't Batman--The Dark Knight like Jay thinks it is. The cost to make the video; the crew, everything is more of a money loser if not a high priced gamble, and the producers probably knew that but wanted to do it anyway just so they could have it on tape. For me, once again--its all well worth it.

If Jay wants to actually critique this, have him discuss what he doesn't like so about the video, the angles, the music; the lack of content so then he can display his true discourse. But honestly his is a shoot-from-the-hip "don't buy it because its too expensive" critique that has little merit or accord for the trouble that went into producing it. You know, I've been accused many times about shooting-from-the-hip on this website, but at least I can back it up why. Instead he has to rely on Tom being coy that he doesn't like being in front of a camera for four hours! ;)

Mr. Doak, we are ready for your close-up!


Tom,
I have no problem with you contesting Jay's opinion (or mine or anyone else's for that matter). It's the labeling that mars this site. Jay may not know the DVDís content well enough to judge its worth. Fair enough. But do you know Jay well enough to label him ďignorant?Ē

Just food for thought.

For what itís worth, Iím glad you present your viewpoints so passionately and filter-free. Please blast my opinions as you see fit.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Naccarato

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2008, 04:34:47 PM »
Kyle,

I wasn't trying to blast your opinion, in fact, I'm glad to read it. I like differing opinions, but one must remember that Jay has threatened others with law suits, verbal off-line threats and most, even went so far as to threaten to call their employers when they wanted to express their unguarded opinions on threads that didn't agree with Jay's views.

Proof can be provided if it is necessary.

Don't you think what is good for the goose is good for the gander? ;)

One more example of my positive point of the DVD:

Ask a Michael Dugger what he thinks of a DVD/video of Pacific Dunes and what it means to him, as well as what its worth for him to pay for it.

Michael is a true Oregonian. He's a fan of the course/friend of the course/lover of all things Doak. Michael isn't a millionaire (not that I know of anyway) hasn't played much other then the stuff in and around the West Coast--this recording means a lot to Michael, because he is a fan and loves great architecture in its most natural form. The DVD could be 10 minutes long and Michael would probably buy it for $130.00, let alone $30.00. That's what the place means to him.

Why?

Because Michael, when he can't afford to drive down to Bandon because of time, work and money, well Michael is going to put that DVD into the player and he is going to watch, because its the next best thing to being there for him. Michael is so enthusiastic about Bandon and Pacific in general, he would probably show it to his friends who would then get inspired to see it and so on and so forth.

This kind of stuff builds the Sport.


The thing would rock for the Michael Dugger's of the world.

Jay Flemma

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD New
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2008, 04:53:13 PM »
but one must remember that Jay has threatened others with law suits, verbal off-line threats and most, even went so far as to threaten to call their employers when they wanted to express their unguarded opinions on threads that didn't agree with Jay's views.

Proof can be provided if it is necessary.



He is a liar.  This is a man who tried to spread a false rumor on this board  - an absolute fantasies he made up in his petty little mind - then accused me false things on the board then redacting them, then goes around lying to people that I don't really write for the magazines that send me to write about golf courses, and says on two threads at least to IM him for details.  Ran, Ben, is that how we're supposed to use GCA?  how is this discussing architecture?

There is no truth to him.  You would do much worse than yell at him if you had to endure it.

So this is next, he invites people to use the IM him to spread lies.  I already talked to two people that say he lied to them that I tried to get on courses using golfweek's name - even Brad Klein himself told tommy that wasn't true, but does that stop tommy from lying - no.

I never contact, him, I try to avoid him, yet he insists on following me from thread to thread to instigate a fight.  But this is what he brings to GCA - a personal vendetta. 

You can all stop this.  Just keep calling him out.  Just like here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32436.0.html

Usually when your life is consumed by hate of someone, you stay away from them, but not this thug.  Instead he seeks to pick a fight at every opportunity and the good of the site be damned.  he's been told by countless people, let it go, stay away from him.  he's been repeatedly told not to contact me. But he not only thinks such ugly behavior is OK, he takes schadenfreude in it, which is all the worse.

And it makes us all look bad.  Everyone on the list.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 04:54:34 PM by Jay Flemma »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2008, 04:58:51 PM »
 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 05:01:08 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2008, 04:59:26 PM »
Kyle,

I wasn't trying to blast your opinion, in fact, I'm glad to read it. I like differing opinions, but one must remember that Jay has threatened others with law suits, verbal off-line threats and most, even went so far as to threaten to call their employers when they wanted to express their unguarded opinions on threads that didn't agree with Jay's views.

Proof can be provided if it is necessary.

Don't you think what is good for the goose is good for the gander? ;)

One more example of my positive point of the DVD:

Ask a Michael Dugger what he thinks of a DVD/video of Pacific Dunes and what it means to him, as well as what its worth for him to pay for it.

Michael is a true Oregonian. He's a fan of the course/friend of the course/lover of all things Doak. Michael isn't a millionaire (not that I know of anyway) hasn't played much other then the stuff in and around the West Coast--this recording means a lot to Michael, because he is a fan and loves great architecture in its most natural form. The DVD could be 10 minutes long and Michael would probably buy it for $130.00, let alone $30.00. That's what the place means to him.

Why?

Because Michael, when he can't afford to drive down to Bandon because of time, work and money, well Michael is going to put that DVD into the player and he is going to watch, because its the next best thing to being there for him. Michael is so enthusiastic about Bandon and Pacific in general, he would probably show it to his friends who would then get inspired to see it and so on and so forth.

This kind of stuff builds the Sport.


The thing would rock for the Michael Dugger's of the world.


Tom/Jay,
Thank you all for illuminating your  positions. While I'm sorry that  I poked my nose into this thread, I certainly learned more than I dreamed about the environment created by the contributors of this website.

Tom,
I realize you weren't blasting me. I was posing a hypothetical.

Another reason for us all to stay on topic...

For my part, I would like to see the DVDs once, but I doubt repeat viewings would be in the cards (even being the GCA freak that I am), hence I spent my $30 elsewhere on property.

Mr. Dugger can always check out my threads (blatant self-promotion). They certainly allow me to revisit Bandon on the cheap. ;D

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37759.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37741.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37711.0.html
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Mike Mosely

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2008, 05:14:51 PM »
 

Kalen, this is not funny.  When the site gets dragged down into personal vendettas and threads full of arguing, the whole site looks bad.  Tommy has followed Jay from thread to thread trying to force a fight, and I for one and sick of every thread I start getting turned into childish put downs.

I tried to get them to stop, and for my trouble I was told to "eat a shit sandwich rare."  How nice. 

Jay, ignore him.  he shows everyone how much his opinion can't be trusted and that he's still hasn't grown up or learned from his mistakes in the past.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2008, 06:51:30 PM »
To me it's like a Rolex watch.  I couldn't imagine buying a $5000 watch when I can buy a nice Timex at Target for $25 that keeps time perfectly.  But I know folks that are very happy with their Rolex.

So what if these DVDs are worth $30 to me.  So what - let me enjoy them.  They describe my favorite place on earth, which makes them pretty special.

I was hoping this would be a nice architecture thread.  The architecture of BD and PD are world-class, and I admire them completely.  I'm so bad I have the Bandon Dunes Golf Resort tri-photograph poster - framed and matted, over my living room fireplace.

These DVDs will be part of my little connection of BD "stuff".  And I'm really happy about it :)

PS - Jay, Your DVD of the Golf Ohio presentation of Tobacco Road will be in the mail this week.  Unfortunately, I forgot all about it, but it's definitely on the way - enjoy it!

PPS - The DVDs were actually found by Laura.  We can't wait to get back, but we'll need to wait till the economy turns around.   She's the GCA nut that's the brains of the operation here :)

« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 06:54:13 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2008, 07:04:36 PM »
Guys, $30 seems an awful lot for a DVD.  Even the music/film industries knocked down prices to $12-15 for two-hour movies.  How long are the DVDs? what extras are there?  What else do you get for $30?

Pete Dye has a free tour of Sawgrass up on the TPC Sawgrass site...

Really gotta wonder why this was posted. DVDs, CDs, Videos, of all kinds are produced about special places for this kind of price. It really seems ludicrous to compare them to high volume music/film industry stuff.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Carl Rogers

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2008, 08:40:08 PM »
Tom,

Yes a 4 hour DVD is a tough one for the mass market.

But I am convinced that GCA will be a formalized course of study at universities and the circullum has to start somewhere.

Jay Flemma

Re: An Architect's Tour DVD
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2008, 08:40:33 PM »
To me it's like a Rolex watch.  I couldn't imagine buying a $5000 watch when I can buy a nice Timex at Target for $25 that keeps time perfectly.  But I know folks that are very happy with their Rolex.

So what if these DVDs are worth $30 to me.  So what - let me enjoy them.  They describe my favorite place on earth, which makes them pretty special.

I was hoping this would be a nice architecture thread.  The architecture of BD and PD are world-class, and I admire them completely.  I'm so bad I have the Bandon Dunes Golf Resort tri-photograph poster - framed and matted, over my living room fireplace.

These DVDs will be part of my little connection of BD "stuff".  And I'm really happy about it :)

PS - Jay, Your DVD of the Golf Ohio presentation of Tobacco Road will be in the mail this week.  Unfortunately, I forgot all about it, but it's definitely on the way - enjoy it!

PPS - The DVDs were actually found by Laura.  We can't wait to get back, but we'll need to wait till the economy turns around.   She's the GCA nut that's the brains of the operation here :)



Thanks, Dan.  Say hi to Laura for me.  Hope you guys are well.

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