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Mike_Cirba

I'm hoping Melvyn won't see those abominable vehicles cluttering the landscape in the foreground, but I did have the tremendous thrill this past summer of playing the 11th hole with the wonderful gentleman and smooth swinger in the blue plus fours on the left.   


Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 11th is a wonderful hole with a slight southeasterly direction, similar to the 2nd hole’s direction from the shorter left tees but playing longer at about 175 yards from the back tee.  The left bank of the approach can be used to effectively bring a ball down to the left side of the green, where the flagstick is located most of the time.  An aggressive tee shot to the left may kick forward, though, and leave a delicate chip back to the pin.  The back pin plateau is very challenging, as the location is small and perched above the surrounds as well as having the bunker left of it.  The pins just behind the front bunker require precision to get close on the tee shot as anything a bit too long or right of it will run completely off the green and short grass to the mowed rough.  I like the fact that the right side looks benign from the tee but presents numerous problems for those players experienced with the hole.  Although we have removed many trees on the hole for agronomic reasons since the course was built, I think the hole still represents a more traditional view of a par three for many, with trees around it and a nice green setting on a hillside just past a valley. 

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
The front right portion of the 11th green is essentially a false front.  Almost every ball that hits the front right quarter rolls 5-10 yards off the green.  It's an oddity; there are no front or middle pin placements on the right third of the green.

John,
I would say right behind the front bunker is almost right front, although we may be splitting hairs.  Aso, the diversity of pins on the left is really more front to middle back, as the green angles up to the plateau there, so club selection is a bit tricky for someone not familiar with the hole.
Cheers,
Mike

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm hoping Melvyn won't see those abominable vehicles cluttering the landscape in the foreground, but I did have the tremendous thrill this past summer of playing the 11th hole with the wonderful gentleman and smooth swinger in the blue plus fours on the left.   



I think this looks to be a terrific hole.  I like what seems to be its straight forward nature, the options of aerial or kick in and that it doesn't look too difficult to get 4, but getting a 3 takes a bit of savy.  I have to find time to play this course - have I said that before?

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 11th is a wonderful hole with a slight southeasterly direction, similar to the 2nd hole’s direction from the shorter left tees but playing longer at about 175 yards from the back tee.  The left bank of the approach can be used to effectively bring a ball down to the left side of the green, where the flagstick is located most of the time.  An aggressive tee shot to the left may kick forward, though, and leave a delicate chip back to the pin.  The back pin plateau is very challenging, as the location is small and perched above the surrounds as well as having the bunker left of it.  The pins just behind the front bunker require precision to get close on the tee shot as anything a bit too long or right of it will run completely off the green and short grass to the mowed rough.  I like the fact that the right side looks benign from the tee but presents numerous problems for those players experienced with the hole.  Although we have removed many trees on the hole for agronomic reasons since the course was built, I think the hole still represents a more traditional view of a par three for many, with trees around it and a nice green setting on a hillside just past a valley. 
Mike,
     How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?

Sean,
    You definitely have to get over to see this course. It is such a joy to play golf at Kingsley. This course should be part of any serious discussion of best modern era courses.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
     How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?

The rhythm and flow of the golf course is all important to any good golf course and I do look at sequences of holes a great deal more than one specific hole.  Where that pace goes up or down is different on every course, depending on what the land gives you and the transition from front to back nine here does this well.  #12 hasn't been discussed yet by everyone but from the reaction I get from a lot of players is that it is not low on the impact scale -- many people go on about it quite a bit.  Yes, it is not unconventional like #13, unless you consider bunkerless holes unconventional (people don't really mention that when they talk about the 12th), but it makes an impression, whereas some of the comments on 10 and 11 have been "connector hole" type of responses.  There is nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I think good solid connector holes are critical to raising a golf course's level overall.  Too many courses try to have each hole outdo the last hole and it overwhelms the player and ignores the importance of the rhythm and cadence of the course.

I think 10-12 offer many different options for play and are solid holes and stand on their own, just maybe not as dramatic as the front nine.  The difficulty level of the holes is as stout as, or more, than holes 13 and 14, which are really half-par holes to the easy side -- maybe their perceived difficulty in relation to par makes them more difficult?

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
I really liked the way the far left side of the green was hidden from the tee.  With the flagstick on the left side of the green, you can't help but feel like there is still more green to the left.  The angle from the forward tees on the far left side would be a really fun shot.

David Neveux

Holes 10-12 maybe transition holes, but as Mike said, they certainly aren't "breather" holes by any stretch of the imagination.  They certainly aren't as visually stimulating / dramatic as some of the other holes, but don't sleep on them. 

10 - Like I said is a tough drive for me, and plays uphill to a green that isn't as severe as some of its cousins, and maybe thats part of the difficulty (i.e. over-reading your putt)

11 - It seems like the general feeling is this is more of a straight - forward / breather type par 3.  Relatively speaking, I guess it is.  Again, I think that may add to the difficulty.  I don't think I played the course prior to the what seems to be extensive tree-removal from this part of the property, but the wind, in my limited experience has really given this hole some real teeth.  That being the case, the target is pretty small considering club selection (which has been anywhere from 8 iron - 5 iron).  The green falls away, considerably on the right side, adding to the difficulty.  I have yet to try or see anyone try to feed it up the left ramp.  That seems like a cool shot, and a practical one when facing a big wind.  Another thing I like is that the angle of the green itself (back to front) is receptive to little punch / half shots, which again is important considering the windy nature of the course.  Plus, I know the architect likes to flight his ball quite low, maybe thats the overwhelming factor!!!

Shoud be interesting / fun to see the different set-ups here and throughout this summer for the GCA gathering. 

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Plus, I know the architect likes to flight his ball quite low, maybe thats the overwhelming factor!!!

Well, I never!!!!

 ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
     How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?

The rhythm and flow of the golf course is all important to any good golf course and I do look at sequences of holes a great deal more than one specific hole.  Where that pace goes up or down is different on every course, depending on what the land gives you and the transition from front to back nine here does this well.  #12 hasn't been discussed yet by everyone but from the reaction I get from a lot of players is that it is not low on the impact scale -- many people go on about it quite a bit.  Yes, it is not unconventional like #13, unless you consider bunkerless holes unconventional (people don't really mention that when they talk about the 12th), but it makes an impression, whereas some of the comments on 10 and 11 have been "connector hole" type of responses.  There is nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I think good solid connector holes are critical to raising a golf course's level overall.  Too many courses try to have each hole outdo the last hole and it overwhelms the player and ignores the importance of the rhythm and cadence of the course.

I think 10-12 offer many different options for play and are solid holes and stand on their own, just maybe not as dramatic as the front nine.  The difficulty level of the holes is as stout as, or more, than holes 13 and 14, which are really half-par holes to the easy side -- maybe their perceived difficulty in relation to par makes them more difficult?

Mike,

Your supposed to wax elequoent with some analogy like comparing a golf course to a symphony.  It can't all be loud creschendos and cymbal crashes with epic stuff going on non-stop....you need the slow quiet bits in the middle to accentuate the other more dramatic bits at the beginning and ending.  ;)

If you say stuff like that, then people will be wowed/impressed and you'll be well on your way to legendary status.   See its easy! ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:37:49 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
     How much of the change of pace that one encounters with #10-12 was by design? I know in our conversations in the past you have spoken of how holes flow together and how important that is to you. Did you have a specific aim for this stretch of holes to give a breather before the demands/choices pick back up on #13?

The rhythm and flow of the golf course is all important to any good golf course and I do look at sequences of holes a great deal more than one specific hole.  Where that pace goes up or down is different on every course, depending on what the land gives you and the transition from front to back nine here does this well.  #12 hasn't been discussed yet by everyone but from the reaction I get from a lot of players is that it is not low on the impact scale -- many people go on about it quite a bit.  Yes, it is not unconventional like #13, unless you consider bunkerless holes unconventional (people don't really mention that when they talk about the 12th), but it makes an impression, whereas some of the comments on 10 and 11 have been "connector hole" type of responses.  There is nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I think good solid connector holes are critical to raising a golf course's level overall.  Too many courses try to have each hole outdo the last hole and it overwhelms the player and ignores the importance of the rhythm and cadence of the course.

I think 10-12 offer many different options for play and are solid holes and stand on their own, just maybe not as dramatic as the front nine.  The difficulty level of the holes is as stout as, or more, than holes 13 and 14, which are really half-par holes to the easy side -- maybe their perceived difficulty in relation to par makes them more difficult?

Mike,

Your supposed to wax elequoent with some analogy like comparing a golf course to a symphony.  It can't all be loud creschendos and cymbal crashes with epic stuff going on non-stop....you need the slow quiet bits in the middle to accentuate the other more dramatic bits at the beginning and ending.  ;)

If you say stuff like that, then people will be wowed/impressed and you'll be well on your way to legendary status.   See its easy! ;D

Well, actually, Kalen, I prefer the theatrical or written analogies, where the golf course can be correspond to the acts, each with its own build-up and climax.  Then, the final act with its climax, followed by the postlude/afterword on the 18th or just after finishing the 18th as you walk back to the clubhouse, maybe with a view or reprisal of something from the round.

How's that?  ;)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

Thats a good start grasshopper.

What you have to do now is prepare a 10 page long speech for the event this summer as I'm sure the GCA boys will want you to give a talk or something during one of the nightly festivities.  You can title it "Why Kingsley is ever better than the Mona Lisa" and do a thorough compare and contrast of the two.  And don't worry if thier eyeballs start rolling back, its cause they are deep in thought!!   ;D

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0


Well, actually, Kalen, I prefer the theatrical or written analogies, where the golf course can be correspond to the acts, each with its own build-up and climax.  Then, the final act with its climax, followed by the postlude/afterword on the 18th or just after finishing the 18th as you walk back to the clubhouse, maybe with a view or reprisal of something from the round.

How's that?  ;)

Translation: "I can read OK, and I like watching bad acting, but I know jack squat about music..."

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.

If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...

Peter 

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.

If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...

Peter 

You aren't allowed to make that comment until you've seen #13...  ;)

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.

If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...

Peter 

You aren't allowed to make that comment until you've seen #13...  ;)

Tim,

First, Joe doesn't know what he is talking about!
Second, Peter is very insightful!
Third, what about #13?

Cheers!   ;D

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ha, ha - good one, Joe. You speak Devries, I see -- but I'm guessing you also have some inside knowledge.

If no one minds a general comment, culled from all the holes I've seen here so far and my playing of The Mines. Mike is an exceptionally good green builder...

Peter 

You aren't allowed to make that comment until you've seen #13...  ;)

Tim,

First, Joe doesn't know what he is talking about!
Second, Peter is very insightful!
Third, what about #13?

Cheers!   ;D

You'll just have to wait for two more holes like everyone else to find out what I think!

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Calling Tim Bert!
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
#12 is a par 4
455 from the gold tee
425 from the blue tee

The tee shot can be tough here.  The yardage can be intimidating on this par 4, though it doesn't play as long as the distance suggests since the tees are elevated well above the fairway.  The fairway has adequate width, but there is some serious trouble awaiting misses on either side.  The left side is wooded.  The right side has some of the longest, most dense stuff in play on the course dividing the 12th from the 13th.  I'm painfully aware of how tall and thick the junk is in this area.  I walked directly through it when I sent a tee shot wild right on the 13th hole (coming back toward the 12th.)  I then got to experience this journey again after the round ended when I realized that one of my head covers fell off in this area.  My golf towel still had some seeds, thorns, and clingy things from the trip last September.  Until I set aside some time to hand-pick these guys off the towel, they aren't going anywhere.

The fairway has some nice rolls and turbo boost areas to further help the distance challenge on the hole.  For me, the real joy of this hole is the approach and green site.  The green site appears to be naturally nestled in the surroundings.  The scene is visually appealing to me, particularly from behind the green looking back on the hole. 

The green feels tiny in comparison to what will follow on the 13th, but it has interesting movement.  It is a great "ground game green" and as we've discussed on the front nine this is a ground game course.  The course is set up fast and firm, so running the ball up to the target is often the preferred approach.  To the right of the green is some mowed grass that will funnel the hot runner back toward the green, yet the front right and middle right of the green will spill the ball back off the green, so the ball must have enough momentum to run to the back in order to take advantage of this "spill it toward the green" feature.   Likewise, the left side of the green appears receptive to shots that just miss the putting surface as there is a slope on that side.  While I'm probably not describing this accurately, the green feels like it is crowned, yet in a bowl.  Many of the surrounds seem to filter the ball toward the green, but the edges of the green appear inclined to filter shots away.  I walked away with the impression that it was very possible for many approaches that landed on the edges of the green to finish off the green while approaches that use the surrounds appropriately may come to rest on the green.

This is one of my favorite par 4s on the course, which is really saying something.  12 and 13 is probably my favorite back-to-back combo on the course.   

A view from the tee


A closer view from the same tee


A couple pictures from the fairway




Some pictures of one of my favorite green complexes (along with 8 and 13 and 16 and... well, most of them) on the course.  I love the "pocket" on the right middle portion of the green.  The last photo here is currently my laptop's wallpaper (I just recently replaced the Phillies WS celebration photo)





 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:58:57 PM by Tim Bert »

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
No love (or hate) for #12??

Mike_Cirba

Tim,

In the words of the Beatles, "Love, Love, Love..."

First point...balls do not come down from the right side hill, much as one might wish.

Second point...the first time I played Kingsley, I thought the 3 hole stretch of 10, 11, 12, might be the least inspired on the course.   The second time I played I came to the conclusion that the the 3 hole stretch of 10, 11, 12 are as restrained, natural, and perfectly minimalistic as any 3 hole stretch build in the past 50 years.

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Definitely a hole you've got to focus hard on.  Placing it in the fairway is a great idea, that stuff on either side is pretty miserable to be in.  If you do keep it straight, what a fun green to hit into.  Love the front left pin.
I still like Greywalls better.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
To me, #12 has the most "northern michigan golf" feel to it out of all the holes at kingsley:  elevated tee, trees coming into play down the left, no scrubby/wash bunkering.  However, unlike typical nothern michigan golf, the fairway cants and tumbles, the ground plays firm and fast to take advantage of the movement, and the green has all sorts of spring boards and subtle run offs.

I think Mike C was right that after finishing the 10-12 stretch, a first timer might question the backnine's validity after witnessing the severity and quality of the front.  This stretch can come away as "uninspired" (as Mike put it) compared to the holes experience prior, but I think with more rounds, one would see the amount of detail and quality (albeit subtlety) of the 10-12 stretch.  I might also add that this subtlety complitments the severity of the two holes that encompass this stretch, #9 & #13, very well.

I don't think the drive on #12 plays as tight as it looks...anything landing in the first cut of rough on either side tends to find its way back to the fairway.

As with all the greens at Kingsley, this one is worthy of a 1/2 hour with a few wedges and a bucket of balls...

Here are a few pics from the website: 



This one really shows all the movement in the fairway:






Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hi Tim,

I agree that #12 is the hole where the most searching for wayward tee shots takes place, which is a mark against it.  A lot of balls end up on the hillside between 12 and 13.  If you really focus on where the ball lands, you can usually find it and play it.

I've been waiting to make this comment until hole #12 was discussed.  This hole lends itself very well to a running approach, and I will often try to play a draw approach shot, landing short of the green.

However, it is my opinion that the front nine does not have one hole I would consider a good "ground game" hole.  On the front nine, either the green is perched above fairway grade several feet, or the approach strongly favors a high, soft shot, or both.  In my mind, I can see shots on holes 1 or 5 bounced in, but nowhere else, and even those aren't common plays.

The back nine at Kingsley has all the "ground game" shots, on holes 10, 13, 15 and especially 12, 14, and 16.  That, plus the fact that the back nine is a more natural forested environment, are two reasons why I like the back nine better.

I like #12 a lot.  You've got to hit a sraight, solid drive, which leaves me a middish iron.  Sometimes I'll hit a high one in there; other times, especially from the left side, I'll turn one over and curve it in there right to left, with a little extra roll.  It's just gorgeous in that little valley.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Concur that 12 is a very special hole. The safest plays seem to be the most rewarded. Especially the GG approach opportunities utilizing turbo boost short and the left green side hill. Even the right green front has a tiny valley of sin like cut which I especially liked.

One last thing I've said before, when I played the hole, standing near the left side of the fwy LZ, I thought for sure Mike would've been channeling the 13th at Crystal Downs, and had a blindish bunker placed on the leeward side of the left hill green side. When, I saw it wasn't there I was surprised. But then my attention turned to the right green side and was impressed with how small a cut could make such an impact. Similar to the 13th at Pacific Grove's Valley of sin but unique enough to be totally DeVries.

JK, I could've sworn #4 was a great opportunity to play GG approaches. At least when I played from short right before the bunker, my ball just ran and ran all the way to the middle of the green.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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