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George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ha - good one, George.

I do like it, a lot. And that's saying something, because it's true that Par 5s are usually my least favourite holes on any golf course. I can't really give a reasonable defense of that narrow-minded point of view, but there it is.

I haven't read through the entire thread in a while, so I don't remember -- have you played Kingsley? If so, was it as fun to play after the 13th as I imagine?

Thanks
Peter

Peter,

Yes, I have played the course 3-4 times since about 2004.  I really like the 14th hole, especially taking into consideration where it sits in the sequence of holes on the back nine.  It is stuck beautifully between 12 &13 before it and the very tough 15th and the home stretch after it.  It’s the perfect time in the round for a hole like 14th. 

After your first play, you get much more comfortable w/ the drive (really the only somewhat daunting task of the hole) b/c you realize how much the fairway opens up beyond the bunker complex that dominates the view from the tee.  A good % of players will have a chance at getting home in two, especially if you cut the corner aggressively and catch a good bounce off the hill coming in from the right (I’ve seen people hit 6 iron into this green on the 2nd although I would assume a long iron or fairway metal would be more common).  And therein lies the big option on this hole:  take a chance at getting home in two with penalizing bunkers right, OB/stone wall left, and a difficult green w/ quite a few tiers OR lay up to your perfect yardage and try to make birdie/par with your favorite wedge in your hand.

I really like the way this hole just unfolds across the land lazily in front of you with its gentle rolls.  Since my first play, they have added the stone wall, moved the cart path to the other (right) side of the hole, and removed a few tall pines that used to be between 14 & 15.  All these changes have drastically improved the look of the green complex IMO, as well as the whole 14th green complex & approach/15th tee area & initial fairway:  it’s a really pretty little pocket back in this corner of the property.  I think this is another really fine green complex and green, which seems to be the norm at Kingsley.

This hole is probably your best shot at birdie on the back nine.

Here are some pics from the website:





Notice the cart path on the left:  This has been moved to the right away from the green and beyond the bunkers.  Now the stone wall is present.  This move had a big impact on the look of the green complex.  Also note the bunkerless back of the green; they have recently put in a rear bunker as Tim mentioned.


Notice the trees between #14 & #15.  As you can see in Tim's pics, a lot of these have been removed


Another one pre tree removal


The caption of this pic is wrong.  The fairway in the background is of the 15th hole.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:23:59 PM by George Freeman »
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 15th is a par 4
465 from the gold tee
421 from the blue tee

This is a hole that can draw a strong reaction (only one on the course, right??)  It is a long par 4 that plays even longer than the yardage on the card.  The green is small and nearly impossible to land and hold - if you can even reach it.  If you hit the green in regulation on this hole you either have some serious game or you are playing a set of tees that is too short (like maybe the reds at 370.)  The best thing about it is that the putting surface is relatively tame with a good oppotunity to make a one-putt par.

Mike told me as we walked the hole that this one draws some harsh criticism from good players.  Some strong players feel that two well struck shots on a hole should entitle the golfer to a GIR, and that isn't the case on this hole.  The strong player will still have an ample opportunity to make a par with a good up and down, but there probably aren't too many birdie putts per day from the tips on this hole.  Like #9, some may call this hole "unfair."  I thought it was terrific!  Except for the stupid tree that Mike decided to leave on the right side of the fairway... that was a bit unfair.    ;)

The hole plays as a subtle dogleg left if played to the center of the fairway.  Aiming down the left edge is the most direct line, but missing more than 10 yards left will put your ball in the scraggly stuff, and also potentially bring a giant wall of trees in play.  The left side of the fairway also has a nice sized hump in it.  Balls will funnel hard right, and once the hump starts it continues on up the left side to the green site.  The right side has plenty of room.  Just don't leave your ball directly behind the lone tree as I did.  It makes the nearly impossible long approach totally impossible.

There is ample space to miss the tiny target on the left.  There is a tight grass recovery area (or grass hazard - take your pick with terminology) that will funnel shot closer to the green, but which could also leave for some tricky downhill lie chips.   

The green sits several feet above the fairway.  Even with the firm and fast conditions found at Kingsley the front of the green compounds the fabulous problems the golfer faces with his approach.  If you've got enough heat on a shot to run up the face, it is probably equally likely it will run all the way through this small green.  If the shot doesn't have enough oomph it will not find its way up in the first place.  The greenside bunkers are all guarding the back half of this green.  I would suspect that more mis-played third shots find themselves in the bunker than second shots.  The green itself is tamer than many on the course, but still interesting.  There is a small "mini bowl" that makes up the front left section - you can see it around the pin in the photos below.

Chalk this up as one more hole that is beautiful from behind the green.  Looking back, the green fits wonderfully into the surrounds on both the left and the right.  The photos from behind the green are amongst my favorites on the course.

John Mayhugh and I teed off +4 on this hole in our match against Alan Gard and Mike.  I made back to back pars on #13 and #14 to give us what we thought was certain victory...  Alan and Mike each made a par from the tips (Mike had to do so in order to prove the hole was fair) which completely swung the momentum of the match.

From the tips


From the next set up


From the center of the fairway


Another view of the approach


This one a bit closer to the green


And another - this one with better shadows


From directly in front of the green


From the back of the green looking at the front of the green


Pardon the multitude of photos taken from behind and around the green




You can see #16 on the right side of this one


A couple from the bunkers bridging the 15th and 16th


   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks to be a definite par 4.5 to me....at least.

I'm curious if the original green was meant to be larger and wider and fill in the entire bowl section a little more.  The ample space to the left looks a little odd, but i'm sure it makes for a tough pitch shot to the green if one misses there.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0


After your first play, you get much more comfortable w/ the drive (really the only somewhat daunting task of the hole) b/c you realize how much the fairway opens up beyond the bunker complex that dominates the view from the tee. 


George,
 I wouldn't go that far to say the tee shot on 14 is the only daunting aspect while playing the hole.

The narrowness of the approach and the str8 line OB left are accentuated by the daunting looking right side.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0

I had a "strong reaction" to this hole--I loved playing it, starting with the assumption that it's probably going to be a 3-shot hole, and you have no idea what kind of pitch, chip, skip 'n run, or whatever floats your boat shot you'll end up having for your third.  This tiny green on a long hole on a modern course is really a great surprise. 

This is one of those hole I could never tire of playing, great fun. 

David Neveux

Mike,

You're not right >:(, or are you ;D

Kudos to what is to me hands down the most difficult hole I face every summer.  The question is why wouldn't you?  If your short game is in shape, you've got several options for recovery on this hole.  I think the key is (as it is on this course a lot) in order to avoid the BIG number or maybe salvage a par, you have to know where to leave your 2nd shot in the case of what seems to be an all too often misfire.  As I notice with multiple plays both here and at Crystal Downs in there are going to be times when your main objective is to make no worse than a bogey, and try and take advantages of the birdie opportunites you have.  A five here at 15 is not anything to get you down, don't worry about par, but at all cost don't get too aggressive and make the mistake 6. 

14 to me is a great risk / reward hole to me.  The tee shot (especially for 1st timers) appears somewhat consticted and nerve racking (appears to be a long carry), to what really is not a long carry to a WIDE landing area.  I guess, and I'm probably going to sound stupid, but I think it has some "CAPE" elements.  After getting over the intial uncertainty, there is undoubtedly A LOT of room.  If you dare, you can really cut the corner here, and leave yourself a mid to short iron in.  Now even when holding an 8 iron, from the right hand side, a g.i.r isn't an easy task.  When not hitting the ideal tee ball, but holding a long iron or fairway wood, this is a smallish target surrounded by O.B. left, bunkers surrounding amist some long grass and native "weeds."  A two putt for par, not an easy task, is a very rewarding number and sometimes a real plus considering the two holes to follow......

All apologies to any typo's / error's / insults ect....RED STRIPE...HOORAY BEER

NEV

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The stretch of the last few holes detailed here visually remind me of holes 12-14 at Greywalls, and that's a good thing.

Cheers,
Brad

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
*Regarding #14*




After your first play, you get much more comfortable w/ the drive (really the only somewhat daunting task of the hole) b/c you realize how much the fairway opens up beyond the bunker complex that dominates the view from the tee. 


George,
 I wouldn't go that far to say the tee shot on 14 is the only daunting aspect while playing the hole.

The narrowness of the approach and the str8 line OB left are accentuated by the daunting looking right side.

Adam,

It all depends on which shot you're going for the green with: 2nd or 3rd.  If you're going for the green in two w/ a fairway wood or long iron (most likely from the right side of the fairway w/ OB more in play), then yes, this is a VERY daunting shot, as it should be (the age old adage that the risk of the shot should be directly tied to its reward, in this case having a shot at eagle or two putt birdie).

However, the hole is short enough of a par 5 that MOST players (playing the correct tees) can get themselves to a lay-up yardage of their choice should they decide not to try in two or cannot reach in two.  (This obviously assumes that the player executes a drive commensurate w/ their ability and not off in the woods where the only option is to chip out sideways).  In this case, given that the player is at their "go to" yardage (whether that be 100 yds or 40 yds), it should make the challange of the shot much more comfortable for them (aka less daunting).  You can also factor in that the player laying up can try to allign himself on the left side of the fairway to remove some of the daunting aspect of OB left. 

Is it a tough green and green complex?  Yes, but the hole gives the player the option of taking the huge risk in order to get home in two, or the option of laying up to a comfortable yardage and angle.  I think this hole has an excellent balance of risk and reward.     

- George
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks to be a definite par 4.5 to me....at least.

I'm curious if the original green was meant to be larger and wider and fill in the entire bowl section a little more.  The ample space to the left looks a little odd, but i'm sure it makes for a tough pitch shot to the green if one misses there.

Kalen,
 I believe Mike will tell you it was always designed as such.
Regarding the left side, pin high left is the perfect miss or layup for this hole. It was discovered some years ago that a pitch into the bank (with practice) will yield a putt inside 5 feet a high percentage of time. It might have been Ed and Mike that figured out the shot. I know I have never been on in two and that's the only way I've made par on this hole.
Good hole, especially with the clearing that was done around the green.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0


I like it when the green surrounds on a Par 5 (and not even an overly long one) give the conservative player a bit of a break while challenging the bolder and/or longer hitter.

Peter

Peter,
    Good call on #14 I hadn't thought about it like that before.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps when Tim played the 15th hole, the pin was in the back, because the front pin position is a doozy.

I like 15 mostly because it is rather unique, a long par 4 with a really small, difficult target.  4 is a great score here.  I've only played "Foxy" at Dornoch once or twice, but isn't this a similar type hole?  Little raised green on a 470 yard hole.

I've hit the green in regulation twice in maybe 30 tries. 

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nice to see all the discussion on the 14th and 15th holes -- I will try to catch up with these a bit more in the next couple of days.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Man

This 15th is a one off no?  I really like the idea of the kick in being cut-off from the green by a swale.  A few questions:

Does the back right of the green (as seen from the tee) raise slightly?  If so, does this help with chipping from left of the green? 

Is the grass short enough to haul out the flat stick from left of the green? 

Does the green sort of slide to the front from somewhere near the middle forward?  If so, is it critical to keep a ball meant to be played left below pin high?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mike_Cirba

I believe most golfers absolutely hate this hole, and the better ones hate it most of all.

I believe it took absolute chutzpah and cunning imagination and I wholeheartedly applaud both the effort and the execution.

I love how good players don't complain a bit at all about #14 being too easy at a par 4.5, while they bitch about the unfairness of a shorter hole running in the opposite direction being a par 4.5, as well.  ;D

Think about that for a moment...that's how entrenched this whole dumb idea of "par" and "GIR" is to this generation.

Most gracious thanks to brother Mike D. for audaciously trying to free us from the utter tyrrany of stereotypical modern perceptions and sterile, narrow expectations of what a golf hole should be.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 07:23:01 AM by MikeCirba »

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
The pin we faced was closer to the front than the rear. I think it is more of a doozy trying to get on in 3. It seemed fairly accessible for 3rd shots (or 4th shots!!)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

The back right is raised, and shots can be played off it.

In general, the green has significant back to front slope.  I've gotten up and down to a middle left pin from the left swale by putting up at the back left and having the ball make a more than 90 degree turn back at the pin.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm looking forward to this one as much as any on the course.  I can only imagine the complaints I would hear from my low handicap friends about this green.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
My favoutite hole on the course...quite simply an awesome long par four.
The demands on the tee shot appear non to demanding from the tee itself until you have played the hole a few times and realise that to the front pin, you need to be on the correct side of the fairway.
Of course the natural contour of the fairway helps.
What a demanding second shot though, wherever the pin but especially that evil front pin!
With so little room to the right of the green, the complex on the left comes into play and from there, the recovery shot is at best daunting.
The only place to miss is short, which is of course approrpraite as a running shot onto this green is the best option to getting the ball to sty on the putting surface.
One of the harder greens on the course...in terms of firmness....a true test of golf and for me De Vries at his best!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes Michael,

I agree.  Lay up a bit short on the second shot.  Get a little too delicate with the pitch, and watch it roll back to your feet.   Then pitch 30 feet long and try to two-putt for your double bogey.

I don't usually sing the praises of long par 4s, but this one is unusually exciting.

From the back tee, I can't drive it over the ridge, so I usually end up with 200-220 from the green, and try to fade a fairway wood up there, hoping to miss left if I miss.  Then decide whether to flop, putt, or bounce it into the bank.  Fun.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 15th hole is one that would undoubtedly grow on you with more opportunities to play it.  It's fair in the sense that everyone plays the same hole and the number on the scorecard shouldn't matter much.  Ironic that the numbers guy I was playing with actually grasped that fact well before I did. 

This hole is a challenge and I think one that becomes a lot more fun as you try to figure out a way to beat it (i.e. make par or better).  I can't wait to play it again.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0

I had a "strong reaction" to this hole--I loved playing it, starting with the assumption that it's probably going to be a 3-shot hole, and you have no idea what kind of pitch, chip, skip 'n run, or whatever floats your boat shot you'll end up having for your third.  This tiny green on a long hole on a modern course is really a great surprise. 

This is one of those hole I could never tire of playing, great fun. 

Eric, you forgot Johnny Miller's new favorite, the "chunk and run."   ;D

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I agree w/ pretty much everything that has been said so far regarding #15:  It is one hell of a tough hole. 

So much of your strategy for the hole is dependent on where your tee ball lands.  The fairway is actually quite large and hard to miss, however the effective area in which one needs to land their ball if they want a good angle into the green is much smaller.  This difficulty of finding this small area off the tee is compounded by the heavy left to right slope of the fairway in the landing area (the best angles into this green are from the middle to left side of the fairway).  If you lose your drive to the right, it is possible to still find the fairway (or first rough) and be completely blocked out for your second by the trees coming into play on the right side of the hole.  If this is your fate, I would think the best plays are either to lay up to your favorite short wedge yardage, or blast one out left of the green in the collection area and try to get up and down from there.  There are all sorts of fun ways to funnel a ball into the collection area left of the green.

If you manage to hit the proper spot with your drive, you can’t relax as the difficulty is only beginning.  From there, most players will have anything from a mid or long iron to a fairway wood (or unreachable for short players) into a tiny green perched up on a knob with 3 foot fall-offs on the right, front and left, and penalizing bunkers behind the green (an awful place to be).  One might imagine that if you manage to hit this green in regulation, the architect would have rewarded you with a nice simple and flat putting surface…think again!  It slopes somewhat severely from back to front, with great undulations (albeit more subtle ones compared to other parts of the course) throughout. 

The collection area to the left of the green must get tons of traffic as it acts as a natural collection bowl for anything near it (it is all shaved at fairway height).  To get to the pin, the options for the player who finds himself here are almost limitless. 

The “upside down bowl” style of this green can create the dreaded over and back, over and back, scenario that we have all witnessed or been a part of at some point.

This part of the course is one of my favorites.  All within a few hundred yards, you have the 15th green/green complex, the entire 16th hole, and the teeing ground for the 17th.  It is a really great spot.

The last time I play Kingsley, I hit a career 6 iron into the green that finished about 5 feet above the hole, which was positioned middle/front-ish.  As I walked up to the green and saw how close the ball was to the hole, I remember thinking that this will finally be the day when I beat  #15 and card a birdie!  After jabbing at my 5 foot slider and nervously watching it roll 4 feet past, I managed to slip in the equally long par putt for a stressful par. 

Great 4.5 par hole…

Here are some pics from the website:













Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes 14 & 15

These back-to-back par four and a half’s provide some great golf and tease the player into trying certain shots that they often shouldn’t. 

I always look forward to the drive on 14 and trying to blast one over the bunkers, hoping to get the kick forward that will lead to a chance to go for the green in two.  I am not a long hitter but am confident with a 3-wood and have reached the green and its surrounds on several occasions.  It is a fun rip at the ball and more fun to see it run up the approach toward the flag.  Recovery shots are demanding but fair.  The lay-up poses its own issues, as the bunkers 80 yards out pinch the right side of the fairway.  I don’t worry too much about the out-of-bounds on the left, although it is certainly in play, and the stone wall has a nice effect and will ricochet a shot occasionally.

The green is small but with considerable contour that can be used to advantage in getting a ball closer to the pin.  The front has a backstop that brings the ball back to the cup and is one of the easier pins on the course.  The middle has two levels, left and right, that are separated from the back by a broad mound.  The back is dished between the mound and the up-sloping back of the green and fringe.  The target areas are small, but if you are on the right level, you have a good chance at a one-putt.  Definitely one of the birdie holes on the course.

The 15th turns around and smacks you in the face, with its long four to the smallest green on the course.  The tee and landing area are at the same elevation, but the drive feels all uphill due to the long gentle slope of the hole from in front of the tees.  A good drive will find the shelf on the left side, giving the player a better angle to the green but still requiring a mid-to-long iron approach.  Indifferent drives slide to the right and present a good lie but demanding a cut shot around the trees on the right.  A good second shot play here is safe to the front or side approach or to a distance one is comfortable playing for a precision pitching wedge.

Most third shots are from somewhere around the base of the green, facing a variety of shot options to a small target on top of a domed shelf.  It is an unnerving play and even I have been subject to going back and forth a couple of times (never did get to double digits, though  ;D).  The small green has quite a bit more contour than you would expect for such a demanding hole and pars are well earned while birdies are few and far between.

The contrast of the short par four 13th with its huge green, the reachable par five 14th, and the long par four 15th with its small green makes for an enjoyable sequence of holes and I really like the juxtaposition of options available on all of them.


Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am just curious, what is the exact square footage of the 15th green?  It looks small, but fun to play!

Brendan

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
I thought the 14th & 15th were a great duo.. i intuitively took the right side route over the bunkers/hill on 14 and found reward.. on 15, my approach from along the tree line looked so small that I just played to front of green, it happened to hit the mound & roll right and off and I luckily got up and down..  we putted around on that green for a while and I can understand how getting there is half the fun..

and finally getting to 16, which I had been warned about..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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