[Matt_Ward]

The final three positions ...

7. Falcon Ridge / Mesquite & Pauite Resort (Wolf) / Las Vegas

I leave two courses in the same position just to expose two completely different takes on what golf can be in the greater Las Vegas area. The first, Falcon Ridge is in Mesquite and is really a "junior" size version of what you get with Wolf Creek. I liked Falcon Ridge because it's more shotmaking and less visual terror than its bigger brother down the street. Lots of interesting angles and green sites and purely it's more fun than classic school golf. At just under 6,600 yards the course is not a back breaker -- I saved that for my companion course for the 7th position.

Wolf at Pauite Resort can be the most demanding course -- save for Wolf Creek -- you can play -- especially when the wind picks up which it will on most afternoons here. The layout is just over 7,600 yards - the longest to date in Nevada. Dye has repeated a few of his themes here - the most vile is the island green concept -- the 15th here. Here it's longer (182 yards) and more demanding to hit but little design ground is added.

But that is the only real big time negative here. The Wolf has a wide range of solid par-4's which are the key to the course. Some like the 7th -- at 495 yards -- are par-5's when faced with the prevailing headwind. I've always liked the challenge Wolf provides and the stunning mountain range in the distance -- with no house or Strip clutter allows for a golf experience akin to being on the moon or Mars. In fact, both Falcon and Wolf share that commonality. If you have a desire for fun and ease -- Falcon Ridge is your choice -- if you have a desire for a real battle w beauty thrown into the picture -- head to Wolf at Pauite Resort.

6. Incline Village / Championship Course (RTJ w revisions from Kyle Phillips) / Incline Village.

Had the opportunity to play the redesigned and reconstructed Incline Village Champ Course and frankly I was really struck by how refreshing the work has been given the cobwebs associated with the former course. In short, the original layout had become tired -- bunkers were in need of work, and a good number of the holes were quite basic. Phillips rejuvenated a layout that had fallen far and away from its earliest days.

Plenty of the holes now have shaved fall away areas where approaches used to stay put they will now run further and further from the intended target. The natural scenery has always been a staple here but now it's become so much more tied to the actual golf shots you need to handle when playing here. When people tell me that Edgewood Tahoe is still THE course in the greater area I simply have to ask them if they have played at Arrow Creek w The Challenge or been to the updated Incline Village. Most generally don't know either layout and with that their ignorance is bliss.

Incline Village, through the handiwork of Phillips, has been dusted off and the "new" layout demonstrates that the original qualities Jones provided simply needed to be reviewed by a talented eye -- Phillips has most certainly done that here.

5. Reflection Bay at South Shore (Jack Nicklaus) / Henderson

In my first visit to the course I really never pondered about just how good the layout is. With two follow-up visits in order to play the other courses at the facility I realized that Nicklaus and his team did very well here. Reflection Bay is meant to be a "resort" course but there's enough teeth to bite you and Nicklaus made it a point to include a variety of ways to play just about any of the holes there.

The first part of the course plays through a rugged arroyo. The vistas are part and parcel of your time there and Nicklaus has seen fit to allow you to enjoy the vistas but your time at Reflection Bay is never just there to be a tourist to look and not play.

The combination of being in the hills and in working so close to the lake itself makes for a fine time there. Reflection Bay is often forgotten because of the nearby competition but I've found that depth for details is often the missing ingredient with those other options. Reflection Bay entertains and when in Vegas you get a golf rush here that is quite good.

[rjsimper]

Matt,
Please compare the two courses at Primm.  I happen to agree that the Desert is the better of the two, but I found them to be closer than I expected in quality (and surprisingly there seems to not be a unanimous belief that the desert is better than the other...Lakes is it called?)

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Can't really put up a major argument against those who see The Lakes being the better of the two at Primm. I just like what TF did with a desert motif -- I mean compare that to the Xanadu "all glow" but "little show" at Shadow Creek.

The 10th spot is really debate point but before others chime in I don't see either Cascata or Rio Seco claiming a position. Both of those are empty vessels for 18 holes. Yeah, there's a few holes of note at each but nothing from a design standpoint that elevates them in any meaningful way. Candidly, I see a number of items at The Badlands while certainly controversial at least provide some meaningful fun and entertainment.

What do you think ?

[Brad Fleischer]

Has anyone played the new nicklaus course at coyote springs . Where would that fit in this debate.

Brad

[Mike Benham]

Mike B:

Patience is a virtue -- ditto reading comprehension. I did say I would post three more today.

Just would like to know that you don't have any of the four I mentioned at the top of my listing. What are your four choices ?

My golf experience in Nevada is limited to Edgewood, Incline Championship (pre-renovation), Executive and Northgate Golf Club.

As I said, I would not put any of these courses in your initial Top 10 where you only listed 4, nor your 3 that you listed the next and the 3 you listed in a few days or so.

As my travels to the Reno/Lake Tahoe region are typically during the crowded summer months, I have learned to avoid golfing as the experience is usually tempered by high green fees and horribly slow play. 

I do not have the luxury of access to the Truckee and Reno private courses so I can frame an opinion of those courses but they sure do look pretty in the slick marketing materials.

[Joel_Stewart]

Like any list it's subjective.  Leaving Montreax and Cascata off are two that I would put on but I haven't played a few that Matt put on.  As an example, Primm to me is very flawed, completely contrived and made made and really offers virtually nothing.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I hope the next time you head back to Reno you can play the Champ Course at Incline. The improvements are noticeable and I was quite impressed as I see what Kyle Phillips does and it's often quite good.

Edgewood / Tahoe has its moments but when held against a layout like Arrow Creek / The Challenge Course I see the former as being good but not uniquely so worthy of national acclaim as magazines have done in years past. In sum -- the golf market in the area has indeed expanded and evolved. I'd frankly take Sierra Nevada over Edgewood because the lake views with the par-3 17th and par-5 18th are what add brownie points to the course.

In regards to access -- some of the private are not private with a capital "P" in front of their names.

Some of the other public courses in the immediate area do have their moments -- D'Andrea is one that comes to mind.

Joel:

Help me out w Cascata -- what is it that you really SEE there ?

The only holes of real note I liked were the tough climb on #2 and the finishing two holes. The rest is just an elevator ride up and down with little from a design perspective to be really noteworthy.

Candidly, there's plenty of nice touches -- the waterfall shooting through the clubhouse speaks volumes in creating more hoopla -- but where are the design elements that rise to the occasion.

When you speak about contrived -- I see it there. Rees Jones simply provided a formulaic design that's been seen by me more than a few times. The views of the property and the off-site stuff is certainly appealing -- but frankly when my eye has to wander more towards the off-site stuff I have to question whether there was anything on-site that was really close to good to start with.

One other thing -- I don't know your take on Shadow Creek but how does that course get such a fanfare when all the elements you mentioned about the Desert Course at Primm are carried forward at SC to an even higher level.

Montreux is a close call and I can see why others would really like it. If push came to shove I could just as insert Montreux for the 10th position and push TF / Desert at Primm down a spot or two.

Be curious to know Joel -- your top three ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel where would your list differ from Matt.

[Matt_Ward]

TB:

Have you played much in NV and if so would you have any personal favorites you would care to mention ?

Thanks ...

[Matt_Ward]

bump ...

interested in seeing the lists from different people who know the state fairly well.

[Joel_Stewart]

Be curious to know Joel -- your top three ?

I don't have a top 3.  Why reward mediocrity.

As for Primm compared to Shadow Creek, there is no comparison.   They are by the same architect in the same area and that is where the comparison ends.   Nuff said.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

C'mon -- I'd hope you'd provide a bit more analysis than that.

You looked at my listing and even made a few comments / re: Cascata to name just one.

I'm not looking for anything more than the kind of detailed postings you generally provide.

If you think Shadow Creek is tons better than the others I'd like to know your reasoning. It's possible you can provide an agle of thought I did not consider.

I've aleady opined that little in NV would likely make the top level of courses nationwide. There are a few that are notable though when visiting there.

Nuff said from my side --

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

By the way, Primm is located in California so does not count as NV. The casino is in NV, but Fazio had a contract with Wynn that said he could not build another course in NV unless it was for him. So which course takes its place?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Fair enough.

Likely I could add Montreux or leave it open and be convinced from the participants on what should be added.

It will be interesting to see the comments from those who eventually play Coyote Springs (Chase) that Nicklaus has created.

Candidly, I see Bear's Best in the immediate area as one of the worst Jack has created. Sort of like a Sly Stallone installment on the Rocky Series -- in sum, a mail in job.

[Matt_Ward]

I failed to mention Genoa Lakes / Lakes Course previously and I see the layout also being a contender for a top ten position. 

Well done layout that often times gets so little attention.

[Andy Troeger]

Played golf in Nevada for the first time over the weekend at Southern Highlands and Wolf Creek.

Southern Highlands surprised me in that I didn't realize its totally not a desert course--out of the Shadow Creek mold. There's a lot of really good stuff there--some good option holes like the drivable 5th, the split fairway 18th, and the angled green 17th. The course is man-made certainly, but they did it pretty tastefully and I think the course looks more classy than over the top Vegas fashion. I don't think its a top 100 course--I could see it being top 100 modern perhaps. It has a little too much of the RTJ bunker front left and right on quite a few holes, but all things considered that's a pretty minor quibble.


Wolf Creek is probably the most unique course I've seen. It does some things very well and others not so much. Its not going to be everybody's cup of tea by any means, but I really enjoyed the round. I wouldn't want a steady diet of the course, but every few years would be fun.

I'll start off with the negative stuff--its not walkable and has some playability issues. The carry from the white tees (5800 yards) on the 5th is 200 yards, the oft-discussed 8th is a bit much from the blue tees. As others have stated, when you're playing a course at 6300 yards coming to a hole thats 220 to a peninsula green, that's a bit much. The bailout area is bigger than I expected so I don't think its an awful hole, but not a good one either IMO. The 9th and 18th seem squeezed in as well. The 3rd isn't very good either as a straight uphill par three. Having the desert marked as environmentally sensitive areas doesn't allow for recovery options. The cart paths are a bit much.

All that said, I think the routing was done about as well on this site as could be hoped for. The site is so extreme that its the epitome of a course where some will say golf should have stayed away. However, the course has some really good features as well. There's a lot of risk/reward opportunities, including all the par fives and some short par fours. The course is a lot of fun for a player who can keep the ball in play and can carry the ball far enough to make tee shots less of an issue. The course has some pretty good width, so its not that hard to keep the ball in play. The greens are interesting and add to the course, and there's a couple blind/semi-blind shots due to hills/ridges. Its very memorable and the aesthetics are very spectacular. The golf course forces you to consider every shot and execute on every shot--its not relentless but the thinking golfer has a big advantage here. That's something that means a lot to me.

Overall verdict from my one play is that Wolf Creek is a heck of a lot of fun and a very good, but not great, course from a more critical perspective. For people on this website, I recommend it as long as you are willing to approach the round with an open mind. There are parts of the course worth seeing--some of you will love it and others won't, but it will make you think and you'll have an opinion of the course when you leave. That's more than many courses can say.


So how would I order the two courses? I'd put them pretty close together in any case--Southern Highlands is more consistent, playable, and walkable, but Wolf Creek wins points for being unique and have good risk/reward options and memorable holes. I'd be happy to play either of them again, but Wolf Creek made me think more so I'll give it the edge by a smidge. I reserve the right to change my mind 

[Andy Troeger]

By the way, Matt, the caddie I had at Southern Highlands and the plaque on the 11th made it seem like Southern Highlands was more RTJ Sr. than Jr. Its credited to both of them, and is considered Senior's last course evidently. I could see some of both of them in the design.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Thanks for your comments.

I see Southern Highlands trying to promote the Jones family name but Sr was as much as involved with the Vegas site as Pete Dye was with Lost Canyons since his son did the same thing that Jr. did at SH.

Read your reviews -- a few comments.

Good hear that you see Wolf Creek made you "think" on a number of holes there. Far too often the naysayers of the course have weighed in on playability when the reality is that too many of them were either playing wrong tee boxes or hitting it sooooo bad that they took out punishment on a number of the items that do work so well there.

I can understand what you say about not having a steady diet of Wolf Creek but I would not agree that it's only to be played every few years or thereabouts. For all the ink that Shadow Creek has gotten and still receives I see Wolf Creek as being more than just an "engineering" story -- there are a number of fun holes to be played -- it's not classic school design stuff - for those folks who must have that type of presentation time after time after time -- my answer is skip Wolf Creek. But for those who want a bit more spice and adventure -- think of Wolf Creek like an Indiana Jones movie -- never a dull moment.

Andy, a few corrections -- no doubt the 5th does require carry of 200 yards but you forgot to add the fact that you are hitting from a good bit of elevation and when you factor in the desert air and general prevailing tail wind when playing the hole the net effective carry is much less.

You didn't mention the 7th hole -- one of the best short holes you can play in Nevada in my mind. The green looks so tempting to reach from the tee but the danger zone is always present. You also have a green that is well done -- with the far right green area extremely narrow and demanding.

Lets talk about the 8th -- the hole features a very ELEVATED tee. Again, when people talk about yardage to the hole -- you are hitting through desert air. The green is also quite large -- more then enough to handle a long iron, hybrid or metal fairway. One other thing -- the white tee distance is just 152 yards !!!!! If people want to play the next two tee boxes -- 217 and 248 yards respectively -- would it be too much to ask if they bring some game with them before whining about the unfairness? Andy, I'm not referring to you but all the babies on this site who moaned and groaned about the hole likely failed to play the tees that would suit what they can do on the course.

I liked the 9th hole because it transitions itself quite well after playing the 7th and 8th holes. The 18th is a major letdown and fails to sum up the total time you have spent there. The waterfall to the left of the green is also a fake feature that tries to insert itself when clearly it's only for eye-candy purposes.

I agree with you on the 3rd -- a slightly less elevated shot to the hole would have worked a bit better. The issue of recoverying should one miss also needs to be widened a tad more.

The real weakness for me is the 10th and 11th holes. They are ordinary -- not bad holes per se -- but not until you reach the 12th do things really perk up a good bit.

One of the more underrated holes is the short par-3 15th. The green looks so close to the tee but when the pin is cut to the extreme rear and you are battling a prevailing headwind from the SW at say 20-30 mph you have all you can handle. There's a hole that can play docile in the early morning but come mid-afternoon is likely to be two shots harder.

One of my favorite holes at WC is the 2nd -- it's a cape type hole and assuming one can handle the c-l-i-m-b to the extreme back tee provides a spectacular view of the entire property and the surrounding Nevada desert. I've driven a ball a few times onto the green from the tips when a favorable wind obliges and it's a scary feeling to try it but the lay-up to the far right is no bargain (rightly so) either. When you stand on the tee there it makes your heart pound faster and faster because the situation is so fraught with both the exfitement of success and the sheer terror that failure can bring.

Andy, you summed up things quite well -- it is "very memorable and the aesthetics are very spectacular. That's something that means a lot to me."

Wolf Creek for me is for those who see golf design like a rubber band -- where things can be stretched and still work. To use what Doak mentioned in his special 31 course in CG -- I would certainly add Wolf Creek to my special courses to visit because it clearly is not the norm but the fun and memorabiltity elements are clearly there.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy, you summed up things quite well -- it is "very memorable and the aesthetics are very spectacular. That's something that means a lot to me."

Matt,
Talk about misquoting--you took out an entire sentence of my post--which is what the last part of the above quote was referring to! The memorability and aeshetics are important and considered so its relatively accurate, but that's not what I was getting at.

You make fair points about the elevation on the 5th and the 8th, but I still think they're both a bit much.

Regarding the 5th, perhaps its more like a 170 carry with the elevation, you can't factor in the wind because it's a variable that doesn't always exist. What if its blowing the "wrong" direction--a good course allows for that elasticity. The white tees are only 5800 yards--golfers playing under 6,000 yards often don't have that kind of carry and arent' going to want to play an even shorter tee so that they can make the carry on that one hole. The two fellows I was paired with were decent golfers but not long hitters--the one ended up in the creek and the other hit a rock and bounced over on a lucky break. They both were likely in the low 90's score range and were playing the correct tees but did not have that kind of carry.

On the 8th you have a similar situation where you get pretty good players playing a set of tees that are 6300 yards (not long by any account) and run into a 220 yard hole (perhaps 200 with the elevation issues) to a peninsula green. Given that its a drop situation and not a re-load situation I can live with it once a round--there is a reasonable bail out area to the right, but I don't think its a great hole.

In both cases, its a situation where the individual tee markers don't match up with the overall course yardage from those markers. You can't expect people to mix and match tees on every hole to fit their ability--most golfers don't work that way. 6300 yards is a very short course for me, so its within my ability to play the 8th from 217, but I can see people wanting to play the course from those tees without having that one particular shot on a regular basis. Its unfortunate the land dictated there not be anyplace in between 145 and 217 to put a marker--that would make for a better hole.

The 7th to me is a layup hole for all but the bomber. There's too much risk for not enough reward. If one was playing match play then it becomes much more interesting because it would be much more tempting. I actually drove over the 5th at Southern Highlands--I found that one to be a much better example of a drivable par four because it was more tempting. If one misses left there its a difficult approach. If one misses at 7 at Wolf Creek its a drop no matter what (save the small bail out left, but that's no easy place to reach either). The fairway on the 7th at Wolf Creek with its terraces makes the lay-up an interesting proposition though and the green is good--but its not a hole I would hit driver unless playing in a scramble.

One edit: I'm not opposed to playing Wolf Creek more often, but I'm not going to hop on a plane annually to go play it either. If it were a local public layout I'd try to see it annually, but its not local for many people.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Matty, out of curiosity, you've been "list guy" lately - top 50 here, top 10 there...is this a new silly season thing for you?  How come you've been list crazy lately?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

C'mon -- you say the 5th and 8th are a bit much but will not concede that at both holes you have mega drops in elevation -- you also have desert air and if people play the appropriate tees the "carry" dimension is more psychological than physical.

Andy, let me point out AGAIN -- if someone plays the 8th and is a double digit handicap there's only one tee option that makes sense -- it's the one at 153 yards. When clowns play from a further rear tee and have a high handicap and then want to know why they made an "X" -- it likely starts with their own stupidity in going beyond their means as a player. That's not the holes fault -- it's the players themselves.

Let's talk about the 5th again -- the prevailing wind is out of the southwest on roughly 3 out of every 5 days. Yes, the wind can change -- guess what so can the tee boxes that players choose to play from.

Andy, you say good holes allow for elasticity -- sure, try The Ocean Course at Kiawah when the wind switches. People don't bitch and moan about the demands presented there -- and they are no less severe than what you find at Wolf Creek in a number of clear instances. I can name other courses when a change of the wind pattern can make certain holes literally impossible unless you move to other tee locations. That doesn't mean to say that such courses are inferior.

The drop in elevation from #5 is no less than 50-60 feet -- the angle also from white tee also makes the shot less severe than from the rear two tee positions. My God man you are talking desert air here -- not the humid and slow conditions found in Louisiana and the like.

The two dudes you mentioned -- may also have been psyched out by the demands presented and simply choked on the shot for execution purposes. Did you ever think that psych job elements that Dennis Rider included with the design can do such a thing?   

Andy, why can't players mix and match different tee boxes as needed to the conditions encountered? Happens all the time on courses across tghe pond -- as well as layout in breezy conditions like Florida and the like. Where does it say that players from the mid tee boxes must play the hole at 217 yards? One other thing -- the hole ALSO drop D-O-W-N a good 50-60 feer to the green itself. The overall EFFECTIVE yardage is much less.

Again, the architect has inserted mental hazards that cause the players to be psyched out. That's one of the characteristics of the 8th hole and why it's a superb challenge -- keep in mind one other thing -- the size of the green there is as big as Kansas. Must greens be built to the size of Montana before players are OK with what's there?

Let me outline my issues on the 7th hole. The hole can be reached by fairly long hitters -- not gorillas alone -- and not use the driver to do it -- I believe the carry is no more than 275-280 yards over the water itself. The tee is slightly elevated and again the prevailing wind generally favors the player. When such situations occur -- which is fairly constant on many days -- then the player has to think about going for it. That's the dilemma and the test you face mentally and physically. The possibility of eagle does dance in one's mind.

You say, "There's too much risk for not enough reward."

In a word -- rubbish.

The fairway is more than generous and players would be wise to hit as far left, should they not want to go for the green, in order to have more room and a better angle to attack most pin locations. If you head down the right side the approach becomes more demanding because the actual green width becomes narrower - especially on the right side as the approach from that spot has to be utterly precise.

Andy, you play down the room on the left over the creek -- but there's enough to land the play if one opts for that direction -- but the trick to get the ball close to the hole from a variety of awkward spots located there. That's fair game when trying to hit a par-4 from the tee.

I hear what you say about hitting a driver only in a scramble -- but the option to go for it is there who seek to maximize the gain. Making a birdie from a lay-up situation is no sure fire thing. Going for it is dicey but it's certainly not a herculean carry under most situations.

One last thing -- I like the contrast in holes as you play the 5th (which really is a par-4 for the better players) -- the superb downhill 6th, the short 7th and the demanding par-3 8th.

You said it best -- fun is a part of the time at Wolf Creek provided you understand what the layout is about. Those who seek classic style golf with no carts and paths would be best advised to go elsewhere. However, when I see the ink Shadow Creek still receives I see Wolf Creek going one step beyond an engineering story alone.


Jay:

No real reason -- just enjoy the banter.

By the way -- good story on BM on golfchannel.com !

[Jay Flemma]

Thank you Matt.  You're right, your series does make for good banter.

One thing, don't they have a rule that unless "mix and match tees" have their own rating and slope - for example PGA West stadium course - that you can't use the score for handicap purposes?

I'm just not a fan of the Vegas courses.  Over priced and under designed.  I just don't think casinos and golf mix, ACCC aside, but that was built almost a century ago.

You must be happy about Pound Ridge's showing on the GM list...I'm astounded it finished that high.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Mesquite is NOT Vegas.

The silly nonsense with what is allowed for handicap purposes should not interfere with players who want to mix and match as they see fit.

The prices for courses in the Mesquite and just up the road to St. George are both very competitive.

Jay, one final thing -- casinos and golf do mix -- but only in certain locales. Black Mesa has a casino but it's not right at the property of the course.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You know, its worthless for anyone to have a debate with you when its clear you have no interest in my thoughts other than a reason reword your original idea. You can win on this one, its not worth it to me.

[Tim Book]

Andy / Matt,

I find myself agreeing with both of you.  For me Wolf Creek would be one round a year if I could make it out there.  It is golf to the extreme, but in my mind a great time that gets better with each play.

I would agree with Matt that the tee shot on 5 is more mental than physical.  It you make the 250 yard extremely downhill carry it plays as a long par 4.  All three times I played there I was pin high in two and I wouldn't consider myself a long hitter.

Matt must play a different game than I because I would never consider driver on 7.  The green is a challenge to hold with a wedge let alone a driver. 

I don't agree that 8 plays as downhill as Matt suggests, but the green is pretty generous, and there is a some room on the right.

I am suprised that there hasn't been mention how difficult 10 is, or what a great tee shot 14 is.  The tee shots at both 12 & 14 have to be some of the best in the state.

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