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Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
When is linksland not linksland
« on: May 07, 2003, 12:24:49 PM »
Must "linksland" adhere to the strictest definition of being at the confluence of a river to the sea?  What of a site that resides several to many miles inland, but along a river that empties to the sea that contains many linksland characteristics?

Specifically, I'm speaking of a site alongside a river that has had dredgings heaped upon it in the 40's and 50's which, in essence, creates a sandy base some 20 feet deep and which would be pretty much the same sand as if it were at the sea.  Included with this site are more or less constant winds blowing in from the Pacific, though moderated somewhat by distance and topography.

I think that the general location separates this from, say Sandhills, which is completely at the mercy of continental weather systems, rather than coastal ones.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

ForkaB

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2003, 12:48:34 PM »
Neal

You have probably read much more on this subject than have I, but I am pretty sure that rivers are only peripheral to the phenomenon of "linksland."  The key factor (I think) is land which has been reclaimed from a receding sea.  Mullen, NE is just as much "reclaimed" land as is Cruden Bay.  I am not sure if Pebble Beach, or Bandon or even Southampton really qualify.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2003, 01:01:47 PM »
Well Neal, what are you getting at?  Are you exploring a piece of property up the river and looking for some justification to call it "linksland" without getting called out on some technicality of its' exact geographic nature?  If it is a nice piece of property and has unique qualities that in many ways fit the characteristics of linksland, who cares what it is termed.  It can be riverside dunes, alluvial plain, dredged-up flats, sandy barrens, sand mounds, Sand-scrub acres, sand bluffs... whatever.  Just so you route something good on it, let the public come to refer to it as they will without the pre-market survey hype. What do they call it presently?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2003, 01:52:45 PM »
A visitor to South Africa some years ago asked me why the country had so many golf courses. I went into the history of golf in the country and mentioned some of the more prominent venues. He mentioned that even in Magoubuskloof, a beautiful spot the the Eastern Transvaal he saw a sign for the golf course there. I hastily corrected him and said "Sorry, but there is no course there."

Eventually, I realized what had him confused. He saw road signs reading "HOU LINKS", which happens to be "KEEP LEFT" in Afrikaans.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2003, 04:35:01 PM »
Thus, by Shivas' rationale, what is Whistling Straits?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2003, 04:45:13 PM »
I think Geoff Shackelford's book "Grounds for Golf" actually takes a chapter (or hole) to describe what is actually linksland and what is not.  I don't have it in front of me, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2003, 06:18:47 PM »
Neal,

When is a Links not a links? ???

When you are the "Links at Spanish Bay." :-[ :P

'Nuf said. :'( :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ForkaB

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2003, 11:18:45 PM »
shivas

Rye was a port until the 19th century when the sea receded.

Neal et. al.

Check out Robert Price's July 2002 Feature Interview on this site, and if you haven't already, read his book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Neivsnor

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2003, 01:46:17 AM »
yes Neal......what ARE you getting at?  hmmm....

if that's linksland, then my name is Old Tom Morris....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2003, 01:49:51 AM »
Our own Paul Daley has something to say about it: http://www.ausgolf.com.au/lureoflinks.htm


And Steel says: http://www.wodehouse.org/PlumLines/golflinks.html



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
John Marr(inan)

Bye

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2003, 04:42:54 AM »
What difference does it make?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2003, 05:53:22 AM »
Bye

If you ever played a real links course, you would know!

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bye

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2003, 06:00:17 AM »
No Rich,
My point is what difference do the words and definitions make, it is what it is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2003, 06:19:06 AM »
Bye

Agreed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2003, 09:59:03 AM »
Well....I think it is important, so we all know we're talking about the same thing when we're discussing different kinds of golf. What if I've never played proper links, but thought I had because I've played the Links at Spanish Bay.

What if I had grown up playing the links of Ireland and Britain and expected the same deal when I went to play "links" courses in America...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
John Marr(inan)

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2003, 11:45:22 AM »
Very good thoughts by all, including the ever elusive Bye who so eloquently asked "What difference does it make?"

The answer to that one is it makes not one whit of difference, I was simply polling the audience for their opinions and hoping to gain a better understanding of what golfers in general THINK linksland is.  

And to Dick Daley, yes, the current developers are calling it links and I am second-guessing that decision because it isn't 100% correct.  As Jack Marr said in his post, one expects a certain thing of a course advertising itself as links, especially one who has played true links.  There should be a certain sanctity to the use of that word, almost a trademark, and anyone abusing it should suffer.

I'll just go with the fact that it may be links-like but too far removed from open ocean to be links-land.  I know, we'll call it
 "Bushwood Links-Like".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Jim_H

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2003, 01:49:31 PM »
Rich Goodale--
Why do you say that Mullen, Neb. is land reclaimed from the sea?  My understanding from geologists is that the Nebraska Sand Hills are not remnants of an old inland sea, because the land is convex, not concave.  No one can say (or at least agree) for sure what caused this geologic phenomenon.
The course may be links-like in nature, but it is not reclaimed from a sea.

By the way, my understanding of the term "linksland" has always been that it is any land that links the sea with the useable farmland.  Hence, it was not useable for farming, and only suitable for dumb things like golf.  Am I wrong?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2003, 02:09:48 PM »
Neal, from some of the courses I've played over the last 20 years which are eloquently described as "links" courses in the promotional material, you would think that all that's needed to be "links" land is no trees!  Maybe a "linksy-feeling" disclaimer would be the best way to present such property, at least to golfers who understand there just really isn't that much true linksland left!

I am still enjoying memories of the outstanding time we spent at the KP in March.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2003, 02:10:04 PM »
Jim H

I was told as a kid that the whole midwestern US used to be under water.  Perhaps I was misinformed.....

From what I have been told, any relation of linksland to farming is sociological rather than geological.  Yes, the land generally sucks for anything other than golfing, archery or walking your dog.  Fortunately......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2003, 06:19:05 PM »
Neal, my dear Neal. I will so miss you during my trip back East as you and I have shared many plastic glasses of wine and I believe your wife was even there on one or more of these occasions. Correct? If it is OK with you I will speak for you in your absence. Please get back with me on that.

Linksland is land located proximal to an open sea, or bay which is connected directly to an open sea, and which possesses the characteristics of naturally rolling sand dunes or land features formed by the wind, the ocean and the receding tides; whether the land is traversed by a river or estuary associated with the land is superfluous and it may be noted that the presence of a river or other tributary or body of water differing from an ocean or sea is in and of itself not justification for land to be called bona fide linksland; land approximating linksland in this event is, in slang, "linksish" in nature, but clearly not true linksland

[From "On Course A Dictionary of Golf Course terms"]

But, I agree it doesn't matter. A "Links" is certainly any golf course exhibiting linkish qualities, and I suppose, any golf course by the sea or open body of water which sports the design characteristics of a true linksland course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2003, 10:00:41 AM »
Gentlemen, I believe that in terms of geologic time and processes, the great sand hills is the true links land in the U.S. where one can site pure linksland golf courses and not be wrong. ;) 8)

http://csd.unl.edu/csd/illustrations/ra5a/geologyintro.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2003, 10:30:51 AM »
Curse you, Dick, for enticing me to read something that was uncomfortably like the geology texts I unwillingly slogged through as a freshman in college.

I'll spare the rest of you the trouble: There are clam shells and oyster shells under the Sand Hills. Unless there were a lot of prehistoric seafood restaurants in the area, I'm sold.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2003, 11:04:56 AM »
I've been meaning to offer the exec chef at SH a suggestion that he offer a weekly special accenting the traditional regional cuisine from the creteacous era, bouillabaisse! ;D

I'll bet is becomes as big of a hit as the turtle soup at PV! :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2003, 11:32:55 AM »
You might want to check out "What is the meaning of links?" at:
www.travelgolf.com/departments/clubhouse/links-golf-meaning.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: When is linksland not linksland
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2003, 11:48:49 AM »
Most of the southern/eastern parts of GA, SC, NC and VA were once tidal basins reclaimed from the sea. Outlines of old dunes and barrier islands are still very easy to spot between Macon and Savannah. I've often thought that you could incorporate them into linksy golf course routings.

I'm not aware of anyone that has ever tried to do it.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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