[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

To depart from architecture for a moment, I’d like to get onto the subject of the golf professionals of Myopia Hunt Club. It seems the club listed and thanked in Edward Weeks’s Myopia history book the seven golf professionals they had in their 81 year golf history at Myopia from 1894 until 1975.

The current Myopia professional, Bill Saffrin, who followed John Thoren (Myopia’s seventh professional) who was still their professional in 1975 (and had been since 1948) when Edward Weeks (the editor of Town and Country magazine) published his Myopia centennial history in 1975 (a book he apparently had been researching on for perhaps 30-40 years) is an interesting story, and a remarkable American club professional and mentor as well, and he is certainly important to me, as I have known him for about thirty years (including before he succeeded John Thoren almost thirty years ago). He is also extremely interested in the entire history of Myopia and very much including its architectural history, and I consider him to be, as many others do as well, one of the few "go-to" guys at Myopia to do with their entire history, again, including their architecture.

Again, you said this on another Myopia thread Mr. MacWood:

“Campbell was the most experienced AND most active golf architect in New England in 1896. He was also the most respected professional in America in 1896, and one of the most respected in the world (Willie Dunn, Joe Lloyd and WF Davis were some of the others). The fact that Weeks was not aware Campbell was the pro at Myopia says a lot IMO. Do you know how easy it is to confirm that fact?”

If these things are true, Mr. MacWood, I can guarantee you that Myopia would very much appreciate knowing about it and having it documented because for some reason, even if their club records, including their professionals over the years, seem to be extremely well documented and internally with the club, they are not aware that Willie Campbell was ever their professional at their club.

If he was what you say he was above they would very much like to see what might confirm that he was considered to be in American and the world what you say he was, and that he was their professional, even if for a brief time in the mid-1890s.

Again, you said to me above----do I know how easy it is to confirm this fact? And I said to you that I don’t know how easy it is to confirm and that I do know from my relationship with Myopia that they don’t either.

Would we all like to know how easy it is to confirm? Of course we would and if it can be confirmed there is no doubt at all it will be very gladly added to Myopia’s history.

So how about it? Are you going to show SOMEBODY how easy it is to confirm or better yet just show somebody the solid evidence of it, because if you are contending this then obviously you must have solid information to that effect, or think that you do, right? Or are you going to continue on with this ridiculous excuse---this “Pledge” not to tell anyone anything?

If you continue to do that I’m sure even you realize, at this point, that everyone can not help but conclude that you really have nothing on this and that you just don’t want to admit that at any and all costs!

Is that what you really want? Is that the way you want to be perceived on here? I wouldn't think so!

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

I think you would perhaps know this, but how good are the records of the Myopia Hunt Club going back to it's beginnings?  I ask this because you would think in 1975 they would know who all the professionals were by looking back at the club's records.   

[TEPaul]

"Tom--
I think you would perhaps know this, but how good are the records of the Myopia Hunt Club going back to it's beginnings?"


Adam:

When anyone asks me a question like that of a club or if I ask someone from a club a question like that, I look at it in two basic ways:

1. What exactly are those records and how accurate are the records they do have?
2. How comprehensive are their records about the over-all history of the club including the evolution of their golf course's architecture?


In my opinion, Myopia's are better than most and probably a whole lot better than most in both accuracy and comprehensiveness. The reasons for that are many and complex with a club like Myopia.

With Myopia, however, there is one "asset" (we now call these valuable historical items "assets" ) that seems to be missing and may be gone even though the search for it should not be given up at this time. And that is this famous so-called "Scrapbook" that Herbert Carey Leeds, the course's long time architect, kept for apparently many years. From the references and quotes from it contained in Edward Weeks's Myopia history book of 1975 it was definitely a most important diary that Leeds kept about all kinds of things certainly including his thoughts and philosophies on golf and golf course architecture.

Edward Weeks had it and used it in his 1975 book but where it is now noone seems to know. I'm going to keep searching though. 

There is little question in my mind that Myopia knows who ALL their golf professionals were and when they were there. If Willie Campbell was even remotely considered to be of the stature Tom MacWood seems to assign to him I can hardly imagine WHY or HOW Myopia would not know he had been their golf professional if he actually had been. What possible reason could there be for them to disregard him if he had been their professional, again, particularly a professional of the stature Mr. MacWood assigns to him (even if that historical accuracy may be somewhat questionable)?

To me what Mr. MacWood is saying about Campbell and Myopia just makes no sense at all. It seems to me a lot of this might be cleared up if Mr. MacWood would just bother to show SOMEBODY what he has on Campbell and Myopia which, as you can see, he tells us is very easy to confirm.

I wish he would at least attempt to confirm it and I posted this thread in hopes that he will. I'm not saying that Campbell never was. All I'm saying is noone seems to think that other than Tom MacWood. And so I just can't understand why Mr. MacWood continues to hold back on what he has unless of course he doesn't really have anything and he knows that. That seems more likely to me every day this charade (this ridiculous "PLEDGE" thing ) goes on.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

What does the Allan Forbes history of Myopia tell us?  It's reference in the below linked article seems to indicate there is more out there than Meeks.

http://www.winchester.us/communityconnection/myopia.html

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

With reference to Willie and Myopia, the following East Lothian Council Site for Musselburgh Links – The Old Golf Course http://www.musselburgholdlinks.co.uk/history/heroes.html 
has the following about Willie.

Willie was born on 14th July 1862 in Musselburgh.
Working as a caddie he caught the eye of Bob Ferguson, who taught Willie the finer points of the game, and was sure that one day Willie would win the Open. His great moment came in 1886 when he was in a strong position playing the last nine holes at Musselburgh, but drove into Pandy bunker and took seven, losing the championship by two strokes. He played his first big money match in 1884 winning by seven holes over Musselburgh and St Andrews. He then played a series of six matches against J.O.F. Morris in 1885-86 winning all but one.

He emigrated to the USA in March 1894, where he gained fame as an instructor and player. He lost the first unofficial US Open by two shots in 1894 to Willie Dunn. That same year he became the first professional at the Country Club, Brookline Massachusetts. He established the foundations of its present course and planned other courses in the North East of America. His designs were very basic done in a matter of hours or days, but he was among the earliest to design golf courses in America. He moved onto Myopia Hunt Club in 1896 and then in 1897 was put in charge of the public links at Franklin Park, Boston.

Willie’s wife Georgina Campbell was the first ladies golf professional in the USA. Mrs Campbell followed in her husbands footsteps as instructress at Franklin Park in 1900, she had previously assisted him in the shop and in teaching the ladies. She also found time to instruct at Wellington Hill a spot adjoining the public links. It was nothing for her to be up at 6am and to teach until darkness fell.
                                 ------------------------------

The following report is one of the matches against Old Tom’s last surviving son Jamie and Willie  on Sep 27 1884

[TEPaul]

Rich:

When at Myopia, I asked about that Forbes book but I haven't seen it. I was told it's basically about the goings on with the sports and the people mentioned in that link you posted in the very early years around those clubs---Myopia, Brookline, Winchester and how all those people knew each other and were sort of interconnected in this way and otherwise in those very early years (1870s and 1880s). Allan Forbes book is titled "Early Myopia" and I think is basically about those very early years before golf and Leeds at what is now the Myopia Hunt Club (golf club).

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

An 1896 NY Times article lists Campbell as being associated with Myopia.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E0CE4DD133BEE33A25757C0A9669D94679ED7CF&oref=slogin

By the 1898 US Open, John Jones was the new professional.  The same article lists Campbell and Alex Findlay of simply being "of Boston", and seemingy non-affiliated, the former presumably having gone to Franklin Park.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F0CE1DD1030E333A25756C0A9609C94699ED7CF

Hope this helps..

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's an even better article from 1896;

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A03E2DD123BEE33A2575AC1A9619C94679ED7CF

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

You're the best---thank you so much for that info from Mussellburgh of all places (Willie C's home) mentioning that he was the professional at Myopia in 1896 before moving onto Franklin Park in 1897.

Myopia believes Robert White was their greenkeeper/pro until moving on in 1897 so if Campbell really was at Myopia in 1896 perhaps he was there with White as something like a teaching pro, something numerous sources give him credit for being very good at.

It is also interesting to me that Campbell’s own club in Scotland mentions that Campbell only laid out very basic designs in a matter of hours or days as has been reported elsewhere, including C&W (actually the wording in C&W is so similar to what was written about Campbell via that evidence from Musselburgh, it seems to me they must have gotten what they said about him from Mussellburgh).  At least that is some written evidence from Mussellburgh, Willie’s Scottish home, and not just an opinion from some uncooperative dolt in an Ivory Tower today in Ohio who’s never even been to these places. As such I consider it semi-solid unlike the opinion of the Ohio dolt, and I’m sure Myopia will consider it to be too.

But obviously the fact that Myopia had no previous record of him being their pro would certainly suggest he either didn’t make much of an impression on them that one year when he may've been there or perhaps he never really was there full-time that one year.

Anyway, Melvyn, what until Myopia hears the first fairly solid written evidence was delivered today from Scotland and from Old Tom Morris’s great grandson. I think they’ll eat that up.

I appreciate Mike Cirba also contributing the actual date Campbell arrived in America too---3/31/1894! What does that mean for Myopia and the claim of Mr. MacWood that Campbell laid out the original nine in 1894?

Well, we shall see in the next post when it is compared to Myopia’s records and their architectural timeline.

You guys are in the spirit of collaboration and helpfulness on here. That other guy and his on-going competitive charade is not. What he’s doing on here has just been exposed by you guys. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it and I know Myopia will too for whatever it’s worth historically.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Please see the articles I just posted.   

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Thanks for that info. I'll definitely pass it on to Myopia as coming from you and Melvyn, Old Tom's grandson in Scotland. As I said in the other thread I think they will like that. Your cooperation definitely shows up where that Ohio dolt is coming from on here and how his participation is certainly not to help anyone or any important club.

I don't see anything in any of these contemporaneous articles that says a thing about Campbell as an architect, pretty much just a club pro and tournament player.

Also your ship manifest research shows he was not even in America when Myopia members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner laid out the original nine for that course in the late winter or early spring of 1894 and it appears Campbell went first to Brookline CC anyway for perhaps two years.

So much for Mr. MacWood's claim Campbell laid out the original nine at Myopia and not Appleton, Merrill and Gardner as the club records clearly show and as I've been saying continuously.

By the way, this R.M Appleton, the Master of the Myopia Hunt is an interesting guy. Not only did he have a golf course on his own estate as early as perhaps 1892 but he was the one who brought golf to not only Myopia Hunt but also to Aiken S.C. where his clubmate, H.C. Leeds also designed that golf course.

By the way, Aiken S.C. was pretty much the southern and winter horse and hunting center for those kinds of guys from the northeast in that early day. Matter of fact it still is.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't see anything in any of these contemporaneous articles that says a thing about Campbell as an architect, pretty much just a club pro and tournament player.

Perhaps you didn't open Melvyn's link to Musselburgh:
 
That same year he(Campbell) became the first professional at the Country Club, Brookline Massachusetts. He established the foundations of its present course and planned other courses in the North East of America. His designs were very basic done in a matter of hours or days, but he was among the earliest to design golf courses in America. He moved onto Myopia Hunt Club in 1896 and then in 1897 was put in charge of the public links at Franklin Park, Boston.

I know this doesn't come from a newspaper article of the day, but are you  saying that Campbell wasn't involved with building golf course or that it isn't in 'print'.

[Joe Bausch]

Let me contribute the following article from the November 26, 1900 edition of the New Haven Register.  It is basically an obit:

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy:

What I'm saying is I've seen nothing anywhere to suggest that Willie Campbell had anything to do with the architecture of Myopia. I've known for over forty years he had something to do with improving the architecture of TCC at Brookline apparently between 1894-95 after a few clubmembers originally laid out that course in 1893 (a year before Campbell first arrived in this country).

Some or at least one on here may ASSUME that Campbell had something to do with Leeds's "Long Nine" which was devoloped between 1896 and 1898 simply because he was there for a single year (1896) but the club records show nothing of the kind. That attribution has always been famously given to Herbert C. Leeds by the club and others right from that time (1896) and I see no reason from those Myopia contemporaneous club records to indicate the club was lying about any of it or trying to create a "legend" of Leeds at that time or at any other time. It's simply a fact of American golf architecture's history.

He was just given that job by Myopia, he accepted it in 1896 and he dedicated himself to it for the next 20-30 years.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom
Sorry do not have much on Willie, only some items associated re his games with Jamie Morris. The only other item I have was a copy of a newspaper article advising of his death in the USA which reads as follows.

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

Again, thank you for what you've come up with on the life and times of Willie Campbell, and certainly including the fact that it does appear he was the professional at Myopia for a single year---eg 1896. That is what this thread was about---eg was he really the professional at Myopia at any time, even if a very short time, in this case apparently one year.

I'm interested in a man like Campbell because he was obviously one of the earliest ones over here from abroad but what I'm really interested in with this context of that time is the architectural history of Myopia and particularly Herbert C. Leeds's seminal part in it from the time he was first (1896) clearly handed the job of improving that golf course as soon as he arrived from Brookline G.C. as a member of Myopia, and until near the end of his life when he was still given so much respect from the club for what he did and was doing for their golf and golf course over all those years.

I just don't like this automatic assumption on here by some that seems totally unsupported by any fact that just because Campbell was at Myopia for even a year as a golf professional that he therefore must have had a significant hand in what Leeds was doing there. In my opinion, that just doesn't follow and there is absolutely no evidence in any of these articles or in the club's own contemporaneous administrative records that something like that happened with Campbell at Myopia. Perhaps that has no meaning at all to Mr. MacWood but it certainly does have meaning to me as an historical golf architecture analyst and I know it has or will have meaning to Myopia.

Noone anywhere at any time, that I can see at this time, appears to have made a claim like that other than Tom MacWood. And this is certainly not the first time he has gotten into these kinds of massive exaggerations with the architectural history of an important American golf course.

[DMoriarty]

See TomP.  No need to keep attacking TomM.  Others gladly do research for you.  You just had to ask.

What is it again that you are conributing to this "collaboration?"  Other than your blue blood, I mean?

[TEPaul]

DM:

I believe this thread showed in a little over twelve hours 2-3 on here who cooperate on research on this website and the usual two on here who treat this site as some petty competitive charade on research. Melyvn, MikeC and JosephB just helped me and Myopia with some articles that should indicate to Myopia that Willie Campbell was a pro at the club for a year in 1896. Mr. MacWood stonewalled on that for weeks and probably never would have helped. Those three acted in the spirit of cooperation that this website has always been about; the other guy hasn't and didn't and probably never will. Who helped a prominent club today and who didn't in over a month?

I just heard tonight that Myopia has two interesting maps (drawings) of the course in a ten year stagger from the Leeds era that are digitized. I will be in touch with the club tomorrow about that hopefully for the USGA Architecture Archive and I'll be sure to tell them about who cooperated with me and their club and who won't.

The evidence Melvyn, Mike and Joe provided also helped me establish a timeline on Campbell and with what I know from the record of the club on the timing of the laying out of the original nine of Myopia by clubmembers Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, that proves that Campbell wasn't even in this country at that time and certainly wasn't at Myopia at that time. This proves that part of the club's architectural history that Tom MacWood claimed is inaccurate is in fact accurate, as I've been maintaining.

Mr. MacWood's month long contention on the strength of some Boston Globe article that he refuses to provide that Campbell laid out the original nine of Myopia has been proven wrong---has been proven impossible frankly. To me that's the value of this website with cooperation from others that helps trump attempts at exaggerated and bogus architectural analysis and revisionism on here by a couple of people apparently trying to promote themselves as researchers or whatever on important courses with which they don't have enough familiarity to know how to properly analyze these types of things to do with an important early American course's architectural history.

[Joe Bausch]

This post from the August 6, 1894 edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer is only tangentially related to the thread, but I thought it might be of interest as it talks about some of the very early golf courses in the country:

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Interesting article that kind of bespeaks that some newspaper writers were a bit hazy back then on what golf and courses really were and what the point of it all was.

A couple of years ago Wayne Morrison found an hilarious newspaper article in a late 19th century Brooklyn Eagle newspaper edition where the sportswriter apparently thought the idea and point of golf and winning at it was not just to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes but who actually got it in first or quickest! He seemed to think golf was actually a race. 

[Neil_Crafter]

Not sure if this is the right Myopia/Willie Campbell thread to put this info on....but here goes.

John Lovell had sent me this article a while ago and I just came across it today when looking for something else. The article is entitled "Willie Campbell (1862-1900) The World's best Match Player & Georgina Campbell (1864 - 1953) The First Lady professional" by Brian J DeLacey and John Pearson and was published in 'Through the Green' the magazine of the British Golf Collector's Society (I'm not sure of the date).

They indicate Campbell came out to America after receiving an offer from Washington Thomas who asked Campbell to assist at both The Country Club and Essex CC. He extended six holes to nine at TCC. Willie had design commissions at Torresdale Frankford (1895) Tatnuck (1899) Beaver Meadow(1899) and Wannamoisett (1899). Willie left TCC (where he was for all of 1895) for Myopia Hunt Club in 1896. "After helping to establish a new course at Myopia, he moved back to Boston...." He died of cancer on 25 November 1900 in Dorchester, Boston, aged just 38.

Hope this helps. They list their sources at the end of the article.

cheers Neil

[TEPaul]

Neil:

Thank you for that from a British golf collectors society magazine. Of course it helps, it certainly helps me (and I'll pass it on to Myopia if they aren't aware of it). That happens to be the first actual mention in print I've ever seen that Campbell had anything at all to do with the architecture of Myopia Hunt Club.

Mr. MacWood apparently keeps maintaining that Campbell laid out the ORIGINAL nine at Myopia in the spring of 1894. It looks to me like that nine was already laid out by clubmembers Appleton, Merrill and Gardner before Campbell first arrived in this country on 3/31/1894.

I realize without having a real familiarity with the site of Myopia Hunt Club it is pretty hard to figure out how these various holes played out from the original nine in 1894 to the next iteration of Leeds's "Long Nine" beginning in 1896, and on which the 1898 US Open was played and then the next iteration which was 18 holes and in play in 1900 and on which the next three Myopia US Opens were played, and which is the course today; but nevertheless here goes an explanation of the first two iterations as I understand them and apparently the Myopia history understands them as well:

The most important thing to note here is that the ORIIGINAL nine of 1894 was not really the same as the so-called "Long Nine" that Leeds was given the responsibility of creating when he came from TCC to Myopia in 1896. Perhaps one hole was almost idenitical to what is still there now (#9) but another five of them (#1, #8, an iteration of today's #10 tee and #11 green, #12 and #13 while in mostly in the same place were either not of the length or the exact direction of or their greens were probably not in the same places as holes that would become the Leeds's "Long Nine." It seems to me that three remaining three holes of that ORIGINAL 1894 nine are completely unaccounted for as to what they were and their whereabouts as the Myopia history book claims the "uphill" three holes (#14, #15, #16) that would become the last three holes of Leeds's 1896 "Long Nine" were not in play until the Long Nine was created in 1896 and the Myopia history book mentions that the whereabouts of some holes of the ORIGINAL nine is a matter of speculation. It also mentions that some hole of the ORIGINAL 1894 nine were on Dr. Hopkin's place and the fact is that no holes of Leeds's 1896 "Long Nine" were on the land that was Dr. Hopkins' place.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of these evolutionary iterations from the original 1894 nine to Leeds's "Long Nine" and then to Leeds's 18 hole course that again came into play in the spring of 1900 and is today's course.

If Edward Weeks's Myopia history book is wrong about some things to do with this architectural evolution then it just is but to date I just don't see how it is.

Again, Neil, thank you very much for that article from a British golf collector's society, it's helpful and you are very cooperative as a few others have been recently although one most certainly is not. If he has something in print about Campbell and Myopia he should put it on here as others have and cut out this months long stonewalling of it via this ridiculous "PLEDGE" of his not to share anything with me or anyone from any club I know. I really can't understand what his charade is all about but to me and others, including the clubs I know who read this website, it's really petty and immature  and certainly not in the spirit of cooperation which this website has always been about.

When I talk to Myopia I'll be sure to tell them that a bit of written material on Campbell and the course in 1896 emanated from you and out of Australia. I think they'll like that. Thanks very much.

[Neil_Crafter]

TE
Glad you found the mention of interest.
I'm happy to share what I find because I believe if I do that then others will share information with me on my subjects of particular interest (Darwin and Mackenzie).
cheers Neil

[TEPaul]

Neil:

I really do find that article of interest and I'm sure Myopia will as well. Being as old as they are and as prominent a course in early American golf as Myopia was, they are clearly interested in their club's and course's history and getting it recorded accurately.

That Willie Campbell obviously was a pro there even if for that one year in 1896 I have no doubt they will gladly include in their history. Their present pro who's been there for almost thirty years and who is an old friend of mine and who is extremely interested in the history of the club and particularly the architectural history will be very glad to here this about Campbell being the pro there, even if for a single year most unlike the pros who followed up and until today.

Of course I do not understand why Edward Weeks's 1975 history book did not mention this because it mentioned and roundly thanked the other seven professionals who had been there throughout the course's history up and past 1975. It seems at this particular time (perhaps 1895-1897) he thought Robert White who went on to form the PGA was their professional at that time.

I have a suspicion that Tom MacWood is going to try to cast this exclusion of Campbell from the Myopia history book as some kind of attempt on the part of the club to purposefully minimize Campbell in an attempt to glorify Herbert Leeds into an architectural "Legend". This is exactly what he tried to do with Crump and Colt with Pine Valley and Wilson and Macdonald/Whigam and H.H. Barker at Merion----to no avail, I might add!

My sense is Campbell was not included in the history book probably because he was there for such a short time or perhaps in some peripheral capacity such as just teaching golf to the members that they just missed his time there. Either that or because of the shortness of his stay he just didn't make much of an impression on the club. The idea that Weeks or the club would exclude him purposefully to glorify Leeds is just sheer nonsense, in my opinion.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Lovell had sent me this article a while ago and I just came across it today when looking for something else. The article is entitled "Willie Campbell (1862-1900) The World's best Match Player & Georgina Campbell (1864 - 1953) The First Lady professional" by Brian J DeLacey and John Pearson and was published in 'Through the Green' the magazine of the British Golf Collector's Society (I'm not sure of the date).

They indicate Campbell came out to America after receiving an offer from Washington Thomas who asked Campbell to assist at both The Country Club and Essex CC. He extended six holes to nine at TCC. Willie had design commissions at Torresdale Frankford (1895) Tatnuck (1899) Beaver Meadow(1899) and Wannamoisett (1899). Willie left TCC (where he was for all of 1895) for Myopia Hunt Club in 1896. "After helping to establish a new course at Myopia, he moved back to Boston...." He died of cancer on 25 November 1900 in Dorchester, Boston, aged just 38.

Neil,

Thanks for the additional info.

I'd be interested to know their sources though, because the attribution of "Torresdale Frankford (1895)" is incorrect.   

During that time, there were two separate clubs...Torresdale GC & Frankford GC.    They didn't merge til later, and both had early nine hole courses, both of which were later abandoned.

My understanding is that there was another Willie Campbell who was the Philadelphia Country Club pro (he's listed above in one of the NY Times articles I posted earlier on this thread), who was likely responsible for the 9 hole course at one or the other of these clubs (per Tom MacWood), both of which are defunct.   The club themselves mention another person involved, a club pro named James Campbell.

The clubs merged in the teens, and had a first nine designed by Merion pro George Sayers, and then Donald Ross came in during the early 20s and did the usual (R9) (A9), which is largely preserved as today's course, with some changes by the Gordons when a nearby road got expanded.


Today, on the club's website, they still have their attribution incorrect.   I believe the mistake was perpetuated in C&W's "Architects of Golf".

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