[Garland Bayley]

Team sports are much more obviously an entertainment venue where an individuals failures are less highlighted than in golf. Therefore, I can understand the lookie loo feeling.

In team sports, it is possible to follow the ebb and flow of the scoring in the competition, thereby adding to the entertainment value, whereas, without TV golf hides its ebb and flow of positioning in the competition.

[Jason Topp]

The world was a much more dangerous place back 40 years ago than it is today. However, you weren't shown all the bad stuff that happened on TV every night and didn't know that a sex offender lived next door because he didn't have to register with the government. Not saying one time is better than the other, but parents seem to be a little over protective these days. This all coming from someone without kids, so I don't know how valuable that opinion is.

Robert

Robert:

You could be correct.  

As a parent, however, the world seems very different than it did when I was a kid.  Imagine your child getting raped or kidnapped from a park when you weren't there and think about whether you would be willing to err on the side of being overprotective.  I had my daughter disappear for about 4 hours one day a couple of years ago (she is fine - she had just gone on an adventure with a friend).  I felt horrible, even though in this instance she had disobeyed us.

I do not apologize for not trying to recreate the "go to the park for a sandlot game" days of my childhood.  Even if the danger level is no higher today than it was years ago, my trust in society has changed.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kalen,
In 1961 I was 10 years old. It felt safer than today and these statistics from the US Bureau of Justice and the FBI back that assumption up.

Violent Crime - number of incidents per 100k people

  yr   -   # of incidents
1961- 158
1971- 396
1981- 594
1991- 758
(the turnaround)
2001- 504
2005- 469

[Jason Topp]

Desspite my last post, I understand that the two enemies to participation in golf (and other activities) are television and commuting (into which I lump driving kids to activities).

I do hate how overscheduled sports and other activities are.  My wife is out of town and yesterday I left work early at 3:30 pm and was literally in the car until 10 pm driving kids to gymnastics, football, drum lessons and getting the kids fed.  The kids did a great job of time management but I still spent an hour and a half helping with homework after getting home.  

I loved my son's tennis program last year.  It was after school and when my wife and I showed up for the first meet my son got mad at us, pointing out that almost no other parents were there.  At first we were taken aback.  Ultimately, it was very liberating.  He enjoyed the season and we never saw him play.

I think it is important for parents to make their recreation a priority.  For me that means I will miss child games just to get in a weekly golf game.  Nonetheless, I can understand others that would prefer to be at their kids game.  I think most parents view attending such games as their recreation.  

Unfortunatelty - spending that much time at kid events reduces the time available to play golf.

    

[Bart Bradley]

What do we owe our children?

Isn't that really what this thread asks?

We do owe them safety and protection to the best of our ability.  Every child deserves that from their parents...so if I have to cede some recreation time to protecting my kids, I am glad to do it.  John's story about his sister makes me sick to my stomach.  We must be as vigilant as possible (even overprotective) when children are young and defenseless....you only get one childhood and a single molester can harm a kid for life.

Bart

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,
In 1961 I was 10 years old. It felt safer than today and these statistics from the US Bureau of Justice and the FBI back that assumption up.

Violent Crime - number of incidents per 100k people

  yr   -   # of incidents
1961- 158
1971- 396
1981- 594
1991- 758
(the turnaround)
2001- 504
2005- 469

Nice stats...The definition of violent crime has changed since 1961.  It wouldn't surprise me if the extra 600 incidents cited in 91 could be linked to black on black crime that wasn't even counted in 61.  Your stats would indicate that in all of 1961 at most 158 young black men were whacked up side their head by some white red neck.  That sounds more like an August in Alabama.

[Jason Topp]

here's a question--when i was a kid, i loved having my parents watching me during team sports, but thought that parents who followed their kids at golf tournaments were overbearing and in most cases a negative.  I would have been upset/angry if mine had come out to watch.

I thought the same thing when I was a kid.  A friend of mine's father always followed him around, carrying a lawn chair and would sit about a 1/2 a hole away.  We found that endearing, but odd and a little embarassing for my friend.  

I'm not sure why it is any different than me sitting for four hours at my daughter's gymnastics meet.

[Tim Taylor]

Shivas,

I can't tell if you're pulling our collective legs about your 9 y/o daughters sports and activities, or are serious. If the latter, I have one question. When does she have time to be a little girl, play with dolls, make mud pies with her friends, catch butterflies and toads?

My own observation is that the entire culture is much more youth-oriented than during my grandparents time - I'm 43. It seems that a lot of the entertainment - music, movies, even TV - of the 30s, 40s, and 50s was geared towards adults. Nowadays it's mostly geared towards kids, teens, and young adults.

Parents my age are the worst. I once had a woman tell me I was a lousy parent because my children were playing alone in the front yard and riding bikes in the cul de sac while I was inside making dinner. A cul de sac with one way in and about 10 houses. It was her opinion that kids should never be out of sight.

I play a lot of golf for a guy with two kids under 10 but that's mainly because I'm divorced and have my kids 50/50. The weeks I have them, no golf. The weeks I don't, at least 36 and often 54 or more holes. I

Tim

[Charlie Goerges]

Kalen,

You make similar point as John RE that parents must make time for recreation for them. I agree with this and I agree with those who decide to make attending kids games their recreation. But I think we can all agree that there is a difference between pure recreation and "family time". What I'm curious about now, is whether "family time" is a myth, or is it limited to things like eating dinner together? If either of these is not the case, what does constitute family time these days? John VB talked about playing golf with his dad after work. To me that's family time, even if it is also recreation (and even if there were 10 other kids and a mom not included).

What are the real "family time" activities if any? Can or should golf be considered an option for "family time" and if yes, what if anything would need to change to make it so? Or is family time to be limited to meals and games of pictionary?

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm wondering if I should spend all the sympathy points I just acquired with one big post or measure it out bit by bit.  I think I will go for a drive and put them in the bank for a while because this one would be too easy.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm wondering if I should spend all the sympathy points I just acquired with one big post or measure it out bit by bit.  I think I will go for a drive and put them in the bank for a while because this one would be too easy.

JK,

I don't know why you need to think about it like that.  Yes we all have our fun on GCA.com in different ways.  And for you that fun might be derivied by ruffling peoples feathers.

But in the end, we're all the same and we all feel the same sympathy regardless of petty on-site squabbles.  I'm sorry you had to go thru something like that and I can't even being to imagine how it feels.  The closest I came to that was losing a very good friend in high school when he drowned at a local resovoir...and that really sucked.

After thinking about this a bit more, I think parents can be prone to over-protection sometimes because losing a child like that, and the thought of them being tortured, abused, and all kind of other unspeakable acts,the whole time likely crying out for Mom and Dad to rescue them is just too unbearable.  I can't even imagine having to go thru something like that with one of my kids, and is the worst case scenario of bad things that I can conjur up.   I'd rather be maimed or killed myself than to see my kid suffer like that.

[John_Conley]

Shivas,

I can't tell if you're pulling our collective legs about your 9 y/o daughters sports and activities, or are serious. If the latter, I have one question. When does she have time to be a little girl, play with dolls, make mud pies with her friends, catch butterflies and toads?

You think I'm pulling your leg?

Won't be long before the list gets shorter for Dave.  Of course, the commitment to the two she picks goes up three-fold!  Early teens is the time to specialize.

[Tom Huckaby]

Such thoughtful responses make me feel positively churlish for my first post.

Tom, I admire your take on things, and I don't begrudge you your decision to cede most of your free time in that way. I shouldn't throw stones as I live in a glass house. Thankfully  my girls are too young for synchronized swimming lessons at this point. But one statement jumped out at me as it regards this discussion:

"It can't necessarily be a family thing anyway"

One simply can't - or SHOULDN'T - take little kids to a crowded public course in weekends.  That's all I meant by that.

TH

[Charlie Goerges]

Bart, my original post on the thread was meant to be a bit provocative, but essentially it assumed that parents would be spending that time with their kids one way or another. So the question basically was whether golf could represent a significant portion of that time or not. I also noted how with golf, everyone would be having fun and getting exercise vs. everyone having fun, but only one person getting exercise at a typical kids game.

You are right that we owe our kids protection, but I think we owe them that and a whole lot more. If we leave out the "kids running wild" stuff and the issue of whether parents need/require personal recreation time, what do kids really need and want? Often, it is to spend time with us. So this is the issue on my mind. What is a good way to spend time with the kids, in ways that benefit all?

I'd argue we can't all spend our "family time" reading and discussing Shakespeare or musing on the nature of the universe. Kids want to do something physically active and so do we. I can't think of a game that better allows people to be physically active and intellectually active, while leaving enough quiet time to talk or just absorb one's surroundings than golf.

If you'll grant at least the partial truth of the last statement, then why doesn't golf seem to be used in this fashion by families more often? What can be done to fix this scenario, or should nothing be done because that is not what golf is for? (this is not all directed at you Bart, and forgive me for getting worked up a bit.)

[Tom Huckaby]

Bart, my original post on the thread was meant to be a bit provocative, but essentially it assumed that parents would be spending that time with their kids one way or another. So the question basically was whether golf could represent a significant portion of that time or not. I also noted how with golf, everyone would be having fun and getting exercise vs. everyone having fun, but only one person getting exercise at a typical kids game.

You are right that we owe our kids protection, but I think we owe them that and a whole lot more. If we leave out the "kids running wild" stuff and the issue of whether parents need/require personal recreation time, what do kids really need and want? Often, it is to spend time with us. So this is the issue on my mind. What is a good way to spend time with the kids, in ways that benefit all?

I'd argue we can't all spend our "family time" reading and discussing Shakespeare or musing on the nature of the universe. Kids want to do something physically active and so do we. I can't think of a game that better allows people to be physically active and intellectually active, while leaving enough quiet time to talk or just absorb one's surroundings than golf.

If you'll grant at least the partial truth of the last statement, then why doesn't golf seem to be used in this fashion by families more often? What can be done to fix this scenario, or should nothing be done because that is not what golf is for? (this is not all directed at you Bart, and forgive me for getting worked up a bit.)

Charlie:  I really think you're making way too much out of this.

Golf can't be the main family activity you suggest because Dad wants to play on big courses, and kids can't - not until they're older - and by that time, they don't want to play with Dad any more (as JK said early on).  On top of that, most kids don't WANT to play golf all that much; they prefer games played with team-mates, their friends.

So golf can certainly be a part-time, some-time activity... but not the main thing you seem to be suggesting.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

You may laugh......but me and my kids have had a lot of great fun and good bonding time with this xbox game.  Except for when I scold them if they fail on thier instrument and we have to do it over again!!! 

[Tim Gavrich]

When I was little, Saturday mornings and early afternoons were often spent at Fisher Meadows, the big mass of soccer fields in Avon.  My dad attended most of my games, and my mother probably attended every single one of them.  It was great to have them there.  Sometimes my dad would play golf early on Saturday morning--say 7 or 7:30--and make it for at least the second half of my soccer game.  And a lot of times, when he didn't play golf in the morning, we'd go home from the soccer game and I'd chnge and he and I would go play golf.  It was great.

What John Kavanaugh earlier point about how it isn't until kids are too old to be hanging out with their parents that they finally are able to play on weekend mornings is salient, I think.  Hop Meadow has been like that for as long as I can remember--children under 18 aren't allowed to play on weekends (regardless of ability or pace of play) until 1:30 or 2:00.  I think rules like that have a detrimental effect on the game to young kids.

When I'm a father (not for a good while), I'm hoping that my kid(s) will develop the same kind of passion for golf that I have.  That would be a nice solution to the "not enough time to play" problem.  But if not, I will try to do as my father did--balance my desire to play golf with my desire and duty as a father to support my children in their recreational interests.

It's certainly not my place to impugn any parenting philosophies with any kind of expertise.  For parents whose commitment to their children's pursuits is absolute and trumps the desire to play golf on the weekend, I have much respect.  But I also see the perspective of those who believe that it is important to leave kids to their own devices at times, to give them an idea of what it's like to be on their own.  Interesting discussion.

[Charlie Goerges]

Kalen, I can hear it now:

"AGAIN!!!! Now this time get it right! (followed by the sound of a whip cracking)"


But seriously, great example!

I'd be curious to hear others along these lines as well.

[TX Golf]

While rock band is an XBox game, the Wii is quite fun in regards to getting the family involved. I am particularly font of Wii tennis. The whole family can play at once. Its great.

[John_Conley]

Kalen, we play Rock Band on our Wii about once a week.  I'm guitar, mom sings, and my son is on the drums.  Great fun.

[Tom Huckaby]

When I was little, Saturday mornings and early afternoons were often spent at Fisher Meadows, the big mass of soccer fields in Avon.  My dad attended most of my games, and my mother probably attended every single one of them.  It was great to have them there.  Sometimes my dad would play golf early on Saturday morning--say 7 or 7:30--and make it for at least the second half of my soccer game.  And a lot of times, when he didn't play golf in the morning, we'd go home from the soccer game and I'd chnge and he and I would go play golf.  It was great.

What John Kavanaugh earlier point about how it isn't until kids are too old to be hanging out with their parents that they finally are able to play on weekend mornings is salient, I think.  Hop Meadow has been like that for as long as I can remember--children under 18 aren't allowed to play on weekends (regardless of ability or pace of play) until 1:30 or 2:00.  I think rules like that have a detrimental effect on the game to young kids.

When I'm a father (not for a good while), I'm hoping that my kid(s) will develop the same kind of passion for golf that I have.  That would be a nice solution to the "not enough time to play" problem.  But if not, I will try to do as my father did--balance my desire to play golf with my desire and duty as a father to support my children in their recreational interests.

It's certainly not my place to impugn any parenting philosophies with any kind of expertise.  For parents whose commitment to their children's pursuits is absolute and trumps the desire to play golf on the weekend, I have much respect.  But I also see the perspective of those who believe that it is important to leave kids to their own devices at times, to give them an idea of what it's like to be on their own.  Interesting discussion.

Tim - I believe you and I have very similar experiences and look at this just the same.  I have not given up golf COMPLETELY:  I still do play more than my wife thinks I should.  But for me, it is a balance, and the kids' sports come first the vast majority of the time.  Note it's also not so much a choice much of the time as a necessity; I like shivas have kids on competitive teams, and at least when there are two of them, well.... one parent gets one to his game, the other to hers, so it's CHAUFFER duties that preclude the golf.

TH

[Tim Gavrich]

Kalen--

I believe games like Rock Band can be a good activity for developing basic coordination skills and all.  It's certainly better than filth like Grand Theft Auto, which has exactly ZERO redeeming value.  The idea of the family all playing the game together sounds delightful.  Have your kids expressed any interest in learning to play a conventional instrument?

I started learning to play alto saxophone during the summer after 4th grade, and I've stuck with it all the way through high school and now into my second year of college.  I believe that learning to read music and play an instrument can be great for kids' imaginations and dexterity and all that.  And I've always felt that playing good music--be it practicing by myself or being in a concert ensemble--is worlds more satisfying than getting a high score on Guitar Hero could ever be.

I absolutely don't mean to do anything like criticize someone's parenting philosophy.  I just don't get why these kids who get absurdly good at Guitar Hero don't just learn to play the guitar itself instead.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen--

I believe games like Rock Band can be a good activity for developing basic coordination skills and all.  It's certainly better than filth like Grand Theft Auto, which has exactly ZERO redeeming value.  The idea of the family all playing the game together sounds delightful.  Have your kids expressed any interest in learning to play a conventional instrument?

I started learning to play alto saxophone during the summer after 4th grade, and I've stuck with it all the way through high school and now into my second year of college.  I believe that learning to read music and play an instrument can be great for kids' imaginations and dexterity and all that.  And I've always felt that playing good music--be it practicing by myself or being in a concert ensemble--is worlds more satisfying than getting a high score on Guitar Hero could ever be.

I absolutely don't mean to do anything like criticize someone's parenting philosophy.  I just don't get why these kids who get absurdly good at Guitar Hero don't just learn to play the guitar itself instead.

You obviously have not see the salient South Park episode.

http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/1113/Guitar-Queer-o.html

"Real guitars are for old people."
Eric Cartman

[Tim Gavrich]

When I was little, Saturday mornings and early afternoons were often spent at Fisher Meadows, the big mass of soccer fields in Avon.  My dad attended most of my games, and my mother probably attended every single one of them.  It was great to have them there.  Sometimes my dad would play golf early on Saturday morning--say 7 or 7:30--and make it for at least the second half of my soccer game.  And a lot of times, when he didn't play golf in the morning, we'd go home from the soccer game and I'd chnge and he and I would go play golf.  It was great.

What John Kavanaugh earlier point about how it isn't until kids are too old to be hanging out with their parents that they finally are able to play on weekend mornings is salient, I think.  Hop Meadow has been like that for as long as I can remember--children under 18 aren't allowed to play on weekends (regardless of ability or pace of play) until 1:30 or 2:00.  I think rules like that have a detrimental effect on the game to young kids.

When I'm a father (not for a good while), I'm hoping that my kid(s) will develop the same kind of passion for golf that I have.  That would be a nice solution to the "not enough time to play" problem.  But if not, I will try to do as my father did--balance my desire to play golf with my desire and duty as a father to support my children in their recreational interests.

It's certainly not my place to impugn any parenting philosophies with any kind of expertise.  For parents whose commitment to their children's pursuits is absolute and trumps the desire to play golf on the weekend, I have much respect.  But I also see the perspective of those who believe that it is important to leave kids to their own devices at times, to give them an idea of what it's like to be on their own.  Interesting discussion.

Tim - I believe you and I have very similar experiences and look at this just the same.  I have not given up golf COMPLETELY:  I still do play more than my wife thinks I should.  But for me, it is a balance, and the kids' sports come first the vast majority of the time.  Note it's also not so much a choice much of the time as a necessity; I like shivas have kids on competitive teams, and at least when there are two of them, well.... one parent gets one to his game, the other to hers, so it's CHAUFFER duties that preclude the golf.

TH

Tom--

Understood, absolutely.  It was the same way with my sister (2 1/2 years my junior) and me.  She had gymnastics/soccer/basketball/etc. when I had soccer/baseball/golf/etc. and my parents would divvy up the driving responsibility.  Perfectly reasonable.

On the subject of whether or not golf is a possible "whole family activity," it seems to me that it depends widely on rules course-to-course.  In summers when we've been in the Myrtle Beach area, my dad never had a problem having me play with him in the mornings because a lot of courses down there have a policy that lets kids under 16 to play for free with a parent.

I think the most important part of teaching young kids to play golf is to instill the virtue of playing at a reasonable pace.  If kids are willing to take on the discipline on the golf course that is required for 4-hour rounds, then problems are fewer.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JK,
Whatever, but you still can't add. That's 158 per 100k people and in 1961 we had a 180mil. population, which translates into 284,400 incidents of violent crime.

In '91 we had 250mil people, or 1,895,000 violent crimes.

It was safer when I was a kid.

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