[mikes1160]

John,

That's crap. You know better.

Tiger Woods was blessed with the genetic makeup to be the greatest golfer in the world.  ...

  That's about as accurate as your usual stuff. 

Garland,

Are you saying that any kid could be the greatest golfer in the world if they work hard enough and get all the proper support?  Or lets make it easier, make the PGA Tour?

[Charlie Goerges]

Such thoughtful responses make me feel positively churlish for my first post.

Tom, I admire your take on things, and I don't begrudge you your decision to cede most of your free time in that way. I shouldn't throw stones as I live in a glass house. Thankfully  my girls are too young for synchronized swimming lessons at this point. But one statement jumped out at me as it regards this discussion:

"It can't necessarily be a family thing anyway"

You said a little about this just after, but perhaps you could expound on it a bit. I bring it up, because I wonder if it (golf) really CAN’T or rather WON’T (inasmuch as a game or industry has a will) work as a family thing. If it’s the latter, then non-golf factors are keeping people from playing, if it’s the former, then golf is at its essence not a family activity. I am curious which it is.



John K, I agree with you that the fantasy is definitely much better than the reality when it comes to making golf a family activity. I take your main point to be that one cannot just make something a “family activity”, so don’t force it.



John VB, I must admit that your own personal anecdote is a sweet one, and probably similar to what I had in mind.



All, I started writing this when there were just a few responses, and it took off while I was outside playing with my older daughter  (almost 3). I’d like to respond in kind. But will as soon as I can.

[Charlie Goerges]

Richard Choi,

Your response and Tom Huckaby's comment "It can't necessarily be a family thing anyway", get at the question that I posed to Tom already. Are the cost or that general feeling that it can't be a family activity central to the game of golf? I don't think so, and I hope not, but the fact is you are right in the sense that it is a de facto part of the game. DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY? (sorry I don't know how to italicize things)

I must confess to all that in practice I make all the same concessions to cost, time, etc. Some of my interest in this question and other's I'll be asking are related to some research I am doing regarding the building of a golf course on my family's hunting land (an ever more remote possibility as the credit issue/crisis worsens). So my motives are not 100 percent pure.

Charlie

Oh, and in the spirit of family golf time, my dad and me after our most recent round together:



His company's golf tournament trophy

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

That's crap. You know better.

I don't want to go all Gattaca with the world but do believe that a touch of genetic reality profiling would do wonders for the sanity of many parents.  I live in a small town and things are different around these parts but the number of dads who coach their kids because they are convinced their failures at athletics came down to politics is staggering. 

[Charlie Goerges]

TEPaul,

I must say that your post caught my eye. For what it's worth I spent my early youth running wild and it wasn't even that long ago (I'm 29). Of course I was born and raised in the boondocks (central MN) and I am not sure that method would be practical in a modern suburb. I do think it gave me a measure of patience. It also made me very good at spending time alone without going stir crazy, and without a need to always be going somewhere. My wife probably doesn't think a propensity to stay home is a terribly fun trait unfortunately (she grew up in southern california). But as I said, running wild is probably not practical and I doubt that my mom would have let my brothers and me do so in a big city suburb.

charlie

[John_Conley]

I certainly have ceded a lot of my recreation time.  It's called having a family.  Generationally things are different than they used to be, but I could rearrange things and play golf twice a week like my dad did many summers.  I just don't want to.

Kids can't get to their activities on their own, so the point about parents watching is moot for us.  My son couldn't regularly play games without mom or dad there because he simply wouldn't be in those activities.

To me, golf is inherently different than other sports.  Probably since you actually watch in the field of play.  I think kids need to play uninterrupted and am sorry to hear John mention that they watch all the shots.  Maybe it would be better for them to watch one day or the last few holes each day.  Soccer?  Baseball?  Hockey?  Yeah, mom or dad - probably both - are in attendance.

I speak from experience when I say most other parents at our activities make a conscious effort to keep their kids busy with activities since the alternatives are so scary.  Very few parents seem to think their little one is destined for stardom, but most give them every opportunity so they can do well.

My son and I played a little golf together this summer.  He was a real trouper when we went out.  That said, I've made a conscious effort to go very slowly with golf.  We'll see if he gets the bug.

[Michael]

I've always enjoyed watching my sons play their sports, there have been times when due to work I haven't been able to see them but I have gone to 100% more then my father did as I was growing up.

 I guess I was lucky since I started my sons in Golf at around 12 and they both loved it and would look forward to playing with me every time and any time we could.

 They both played High school golf and when I had to do a major drainage refit in our backyard, I decided to build a 16X16 putting green and bunker, this was the first time that I saw them want to shovel mounds of dirt/rock and stone dust (with out threats)

 the backyard green became the place for the family to hang out, as well as most if not all on their teammates on the golf team, almost every night during the season.

As I said I've been lucky...

[Bruce Katona]

I think many of us have ceded free time (for recreation or other pursuits) to our kids and for the better.  Would I like to be out golfing with my peers more frequently, yes.  How many years to do have to spend real quality time with a child before they want or need you no longer (6-8 maybe - from ages 7 or 8 to the middle teens) ? 

While our daughter enjoys playing golf (and we do get out on occasion), she plays and enjoys softball and lacrosse.  I volunteer to coach the softball team, as do many dads who played baseball in high school and college.  We volunteer our time, not that any one of us believes we have the next Olympic softball player, but the teach and instruct both our child and the other players on the team in the basic fundamentals of the game: throwing, catching, hitting and running the bases.  The satidfaction of seeing a kid work hard on a skill and succeed at some level in any type of game is rewarding for both the player and the coach.

Golf will be there for me to play more frequently when my daughter no longer requires Dad or the other coaches to work thru a slight flaw in her swing or to practice the new pitch she's working on.  Kids needing you and being able to help them out when they need you is what we're here for.

[John Burzynski]

The previous (tongue in cheek) rant leads me to my golf angle. Why hasn’t/can’t golf (I hate saying “the golf industry” for some reason) step in and promote itself as a family activity that promotes exercise, togetherness and fun in a way that the aformentioned activities (and countless others) cannot and do not?

Charlie

Not a pat answer, but in my case it is darned expensive. 

When I take my two youngest boys golfing, even at the local nine hole exec course it is close to $25 total to walk 9 holes at 2000+ yards.  At the local (and cheapest) 18 hole muni it is $36 total if all three of us walk during twilight.  Even at once a week golf, the cost of golf is much more expensive than any league and equipment fees that I have ever experienced in baseball, basketball or soccer, and that includes grade school through high school participation and gate fees.

Soccer at the local Catholic High School costs us for cleats ($50-$75), socks and miscellaneous, and then we buy an 'all sports pass for $125 that gets us into all of the soccer games, as well as the rest of the high school's other sports for the entire year (so when my son runs track in the spring that will be even more amortized, as well as attending hte local high school football and basketball games.   

So the expense is probably a barrier for most.  Thankfully I can afford golf once every week or two with my kids, (and if my oldest had ever caught the golf bug it would have even been more expensive) but for the vast majority of Americans, economically you get a better bang for your buck with high school sports or even your local Little League. 

Of course, travel team expenses excluded from this discussion...

[archie_struthers]

 


Shivas said it all...that's the reality of parenthood these days

[Jim_Kennedy]

During the school year my sons played organized sports, but only against
other schools. I made as many games as I could.
 
During the summer they got together with their buddies and just 'played'.

Everyone should have the summer off, including parents.

 

[Rich Goodale]

Dave

What's your daughter's name?  Babe Didrickson Shivarias?  The obvious answer is to get her playing golf, whether she likes it or not!

Rich

[noonan]

My father golfed and bowled.

It was natural I wanted to do both.

[Richard Choi]

John B is pointing out the exact problem that I was trying to address.

Golf is just not cheap enough to be a regular family activity. There aren't many recreation activity where it costs over $30 per outing for a 6 year old. I probably could go out to a par 3 course for $15/person, but a typical 2 hour round (for a 9 hole par 3 course!!!) just about kills me. Joining a club with a family membership would cost many times more!

I am lucky in that I can still afford this, most average families cannot. And joining a soccer league is dirt cheap compared to that an entire family can join in on the fun. While many of you don't find the prospect of watching a bunch of kids running around like crazy much fun, most parents these days would disagree.

[Bob_Huntley]

It's all the fault of that guy, what was his name? Was it Dr Spock?

That guy completely ruined the recreation time of adults all over the world about forty years ago and for the foreseeable future by convincing people that children and their opinions should actually be seriously listened to.

That was essentially the end of the world as I used to know it.

I grew up in a world that you spoke if you were spoken to and if you violated that basic tenet too often and too aggressively with your parents and their generation it would be treated as if you hadn't said a thing or at least that noone actually heard you (and this gets into that lovely ability articulated by Oscar Wilde's adage, "The exact and precise time to know when to say NOTHING!" By that, of course, I mean your parents and their generation to children).

If your parents were rich they got a nanny for the children so they didn't have to pay attention to them and they could go out and play golf all day or whatever or even leave the children alone with the nanny for days or weeks at a time and just go have nothing but fun, fun, fun----eg golf, parties, you name it.

And if your parents weren't rich and couldn't afford a nanny to keep their children out of their hair and their recreations, they applied the philosophy of that glorious English eccentric around the time of the Second World War who said and most seriously----"Just let the little nippers run wild."

The latter actually was the best method of all to develop in children a good imagination, self-reliance, the everlastingly important ability to be patient or at least not to be totally into instant self-gratification!

That kind of thing BEFORE Spock foisted this plague on human-kind created a world of what Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation" and he was probably right.

And then along comes this guy Dr. Spock who released on the world a philosophy and culture worse than the Holacaust---eg he made the world feel that the opinions of children actually matter.

MY GOD, SPOCK, did you not realize that if you let the little nippers run wild on their own they are a whole lot more resilient than most give them credit for and they will grow up to be far more resilient adults than the crop of yammering, little instant-gratification, no-neck monsters the world has spawned in the last half century known as the "Me Generation"?

(If someone actually tells me to shut up or else add a smiley face to this post I'm going to throw up all over this thread).

 
Bob Huntley, don't you dare try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm not right about this!

Tom,

I came to this post five minutes ago and whilst reading it, I thought, "Holy Moses, did I write this." There is not a word out of place.

I played a bunch of sports and games at a reasonable level and cannot remember my father ever seeing me compete. I must confess, I did spend time teaching my sons how to play golf but attended few rugby or Little League games.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

I've thought about this one more than a bit as I was raised right in that transition zone.  When I was a kid, I had many more freedoms at an earlier age than my kids have had.  Before the age of 10 I would venture up to a few miles away from home and my folks had no idea where I was.  I'd be gone for hours on end, even for a good part of the day on weekend.  I can't imagine doing this with my kids now, who are 10 and 11.

So my question is for the old school crowd on the forum.  Were there as many sex offenders out there lurking around as there are today?  With mandatory registration requirements, its not hard to see where they live, and this would fuel any parents paranoia over allowing them such freedoms.  Did this stuff always exist and people just never talked about it, or are there just more scumbags running around these days?

I'd have to think the press and 24/7 news coverage doesn't help, especially when the stark realities set in that in the case of abduction, your child will not likely ever return home.

So the real question is, do we really live in a different world, or do we just live in a world where our paranoia's and fears are preyed upon in the press and in schools, so we latch on tight to our kids??

Perhaps I'm deviating too much here.  As it pertains to my Dad I always wished he wouldn't come because at the time he was such a hot head.  For whatever reason, sports brought out the worst in him and this anger would just spew out of him.  It was better for him to stay away, because when he came he constantly ragged on the coaches and game officials and was even tossed off the premises a few times. 

[Richard Boult]

Having fun reading the variety of parenting approaches here... everything from supporting a dozen+ full-time activities to letting 'em run wild. Each have their merits, but we went for a balance of the two.

My parents were certainly from the let 'em run wild camp. As kids, all our sports took place in front yards, streets, fields, and ponds. I did play a season of organized little league, but only because I could get to my games on my bike. My parents never saw a single game. But sports ended for me by the time I was about 12. That's when I literally started running wild.

I didn't get back to sports until my son was 6 and we signed him up for soccer. I just watched his games that first season, but got sucked in to helping coach the next year. I then coached his soccer, baseball, and hockey teams for the next 10 years. I starting playing softball during that time, then hockey, then snowboarding. With a demanding career, my son's sports and daughter's dance, I never had time for golf.  That didn't start until my kids started college.

Even though we were much more involved in our children's activities that my parents were, we limited their participation so they had some "running wild" time too. We weren't big fans of over-committing our kids or giving them too much structure. We were also never under any illusion that our kids would make careers out of their "recreational" activities, so we made sure they had plenty of time to just be kids. Although my son is an incredible hockey player, we limited his travel team participation since it involved weekly 3-4 hour trips to LA or SF, as did my daughter's dance competitions.

They turned out great, recently graduating from Cal Poly and UCSB, and still play hockey and dance for enjoyment. I have no regrets about putting off golf until I was 46. I'm now playing up to 3 times per week and keep right up with everyone who started much earlier.

Although my adult children now have busy schedules, they occasionally join me for a round of golf. My son has now played 8-10 rounds and shoots in the 90's using a hybrid, a few irons, and a putter. My daughter just played our new 12-hole par 3 course with me using only my hybrid and putter (she hit 3 greens).  I'd love to have played with them while they were growing up, but seriously, how many kids prefer playing sports with their parents when they could be out playing with their friends!?! I'm just happy they do now.

[TX Golf]

The world was a much more dangerous place back 40 years ago than it is today. However, you weren't shown all the bad stuff that happened on TV every night and didn't know that a sex offender lived next door because he didn't have to register with the government. Not saying one time is better than the other, but parents seem to be a little over protective these days. This all coming from someone without kids, so I don't know how valuable that opinion is.

Robert

[Rick Shefchik]

I'd recommend finding some time to play with your wife (or husband) while the kids are still around. Someday they're going to be living somewhere else, and it's just going to be you and your spouse. All the time in the world spent watching youth soccer games is not going to prepare you for being in that empty house and trying to figure out what to do with your spare time.

[Charlie Goerges]

This discussion reminds me of a quote from Bertrand Russell (British Philosopher, 1872-1970), who was not a fan of golf:

"The place of the father in the modern suburban family is a very small one, particularly if he plays golf."

Of course that comment was tongue in cheek even though he didn't like golf. (On a side note Russell was a notoriously bad dad by reputation, whether that reputation was well-earned or not is unknown to me.)

I am pleased with the magnanimity of the posts on this thread. There are many ways to do the job of being a parent. For my part, I lean toward the "run wild" style, in no small part because that is how I was raised. In fact, outside of golf in high school, all of my organized activities were foisted upon me by my Dad. He grew up in a big city, my mom grew up like I did, in the country. (They are still married ) There was little tension over parenting style between my parents because the lionshare of decisions were made by my mom; such is not the case with my wife and me.

On a separate note, what could/should golf do to make life easier on families who wish to play? I realize that cheaper is better, so what sounds reasonable? Also, what other factors keep people away and how could those be addressed?

Charlie

[John Kavanaugh]

So my question is for the old school crowd on the forum.  Were there as many sex offenders out there lurking around as there are today?  With mandatory registration requirements, its not hard to see where they live, and this would fuel any parents paranoia over allowing them such freedoms.  Did this stuff always exist and people just never talked about it, or are there just more scumbags running around these days?

Kalen,

In 1972 when I was 12 and my sister 8 she was taking her library books back on her bicycle and was kidnapped and murdered.  This happened in a 5000 person town by a man in his late 40's.  He had been accused of molesting a young boy earlier in his life but the charges were dropped.  Back then there were true crime magazines that were considered filth because they would print all the sordid details.  Today telling of the rape of a young girl and the grief of a father begging for just the location of her body is mainstream rating grabbing profit center stuff.  I don't think it happens anymore today than in the past, I just believe there is more money in talking about it.

note:  My parents, me or my brothers and other sisters were never interviewed as suspects during the week it took to find her body.  I do thank God that we did not have to suffer that as parents and siblings do today.  The guy died in prison only because the prosecutor became a powerful Federal judge and my sister was white.

[John_Conley]

Jaka, that's horrible.  Very sorry to hear.

As far as the thread, some older folks seem to think it would be okay for parents like Dave and me to let our kids have a longer leash.  After all, I grew up running around the neighborhood unsupervised.  Jaka's story says it all.  If you are with your 8-year-old that's much less likely to happen.

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen, John, et. al.,

I think modern society creates more anonymity, thereby faciltating more deviant behavior. If everyone knows their neighbors well, it supresses such deviant behavior.

Of course I have no data on this, so understand it is just my reasoning on the matter.

[Charlie Goerges]

John,

I offer my late condolence to you and your family for having suffered such a horrific and tragic crime. I can't begin to imagine what such a thing must feel like.

Charlie

[Scott Stearns]

here's a question--when i was a kid, i loved having my parents watching me during team sports, but thought that parents who followed their kids at golf tournaments were overbearing and in most cases a negative.  I would have been upset/angry if mine had come out to watch.

I always thought that golf was either a solitary acitivity or, in fourball, a one-partner event.  Parents and coaches were lookie-loos.

wonder why the difference in thinking.

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