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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2008, 10:36:22 AM »
Bill McBride,

George Bahto's "Evangelist of Golf" provides an insightful summary.

It's a good book for GCA enthusiasts.  If you don't have it, you should get it.

Bill_McBride

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2008, 10:38:06 AM »
Bill McBride,

George Bahto's "Evangelist of Golf" provides an insightful summary.

It's a good book for GCA enthusiasts.  If you don't have it, you should get it.

I've got it and love to browse it.  Mostly I drool over the photos of NGLA and reminisce about my 36 holes and lobster soup there a couple of years ago this very week!  ;D

wsmorrison

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2008, 10:40:54 AM »
Pat,

I do believe there are a number of concept similarities between the Alps at NGLA and the Alps at Prestwick.  No doubt about that.  I like tee to green better at NGLA but I like the green concept a lot better at Prestwick.

However, you are thinking of the wrong course.  Here's a clue:  It is one of my top two courses in America and I'm going there in a few minutes  ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2008, 10:45:52 AM »
Wayno,

Ah yes, how foolish of me to forget the REDAN hole at MERION.

It does have some REDAN like qualities, hence I can see how some would label it a REDAN.

I don't consider it a REDAN, although I do acknowledge that it has some of the REDAN qualities.

Mike Cirba insists that the 11th at LACC North is a redan, some feel the 7th at Sleepy Hollow is a redan as well.  While they might have Redan like qualities, I don't consider them purebreds, but I do recognize their characteristics.

I think # 1 green at The Creek is more redan like than many other holes which are labeled as Redans.

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2008, 10:48:28 AM »
Patrick,

What about the uses prior to CBM on courses built by Scottish professionals?


Which ones ?

And which holes on those courses ?


Patrick,

Evidently you missed the two links I provided above.   ;)

The first is a NY Times article that has a picture of golfers at Ardsley Casino (Willie Dunn) playing an "Alps" hole there.

The second is an American Golfer article that describes The Country Club course at Brookline hole-by-hole in 1910.     There are any number of holes named after famous template holes and I believe that Tom MacWood has pointed out Scotsman Willie Campbell's involvement there.

Are you suggesting that the multitudes of Scottish professionals coming to these shores in the late 1890s and beyond had no idea of the famous holes in their own country??  ;D

Believe it or not, golf and knowledge of golf did not just arrive on these shores with CB Macdonald.  He was a great force and advanced the strategic concepts of the game immensely, but he was FAR from the only one who had played golf overseas prior to NGLA, not the least those who were born there!  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2008, 10:51:42 AM »
Mike Cirba,

I draw a distinction between "naming" a hole after a template and "designing and building" a hole after a template.

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2008, 10:54:56 AM »
Mike Cirba,

I draw a distinction between "naming" a hole after a template and "designing and building" a hole after a template.

That's a fair distinction, Patrick, but it begs two questions;

1) Why would a Scottish professional demean his homeland by calling just any old American hole his country's namesake?

2) Don't you think they more "found" holes that reminded them of the look and characteristics of a famous hole on the Auld Sod, then purposefully so much "designed" or "Built" them?


Perhaps that's what made Macdonald's NGLA such a novelty....the fact that CB actually set out to mold the land into something resembling 18 such "ideal holes", dont you agree?

Rich Goodale

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2008, 12:22:32 PM »
Mike

You (and Bob Crosby earlier) are onto an interesting line of enquiry.

The naming of holes on UK courses before and around the turn of the last century was prevalent (although never universal).  While the same name would be recycled, particularly the obvious ones (e.g. Long, Short, Home, Alps, etc.), my understanding is that there was no attempt in GBI to make specific copies of "great" holes, even after CB got his brainstorm and built NGLA.  As far as I know the MacRaynor templates have never made the return journey back across the pond, not even today.

My best guess is that the naming of holes in the UK was a very simplistic exercise, ased on appearance rather than any thoughts of "strategy."  "Long" holes were long, on "Alps" holes you had to hit over an "alp," the "Redan" looked like a redan, the "Witch" was adjacent to the site of a witch burning, etc.  In fact, the only "template" I can think of on UK courses is the "Spien Kop," which we have discussed before, which is little known as it occurs mostly on little known courses.  Because they are little known, they are little copied in the US as they have no street cred.  However, opne of the best "Spien Kop" holes I have ever seen is the 9th at Cypress Point.  I wonder, dd the designer of CPC have any knowledge of the Boer War.......?

Rich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2008, 12:34:18 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I draw a distinction between "naming" a hole after a template and "designing and building" a hole after a template.

That's a fair distinction, Patrick, but it begs two questions;

1) Why would a Scottish professional demean his homeland by calling just any old American hole his country's namesake?

Mike, you always seem to insert a wild, false, qualifying, statement in order to validate your point, a seriously flawed point in this case.

In this case it's the insertion of the word "demean".

Calling a hole at TCC an "alps" because is traverses a section of land that rises to block the view beyond, is in no way demeaning anyone's homeland.

It's a simple reference to a general concept that's found at Prestwick and other courses.  One that's easily transported to where a similar situation with the land arises.


2) Don't you think they more "found" holes that reminded them of the look and characteristics of a famous hole on the Auld Sod, then purposefully so much "designed" or "Built" them?

That's my point.
They saw general resemblances, and thus, named the hole.

However, that doesn't confer "template" status upon the hole, merely a similarity in the eyes of the namer.


Perhaps that's what made Macdonald's NGLA such a novelty....the fact that CB actually set out to mold the land into something resembling 18 such "ideal holes", dont you agree?

Yes, except that some of the holes at NGLA are ORIGINALS and not duplicates, templates or composites.

He was trying to raise the level of the holes from the UK through his interpretation of their strategic values in combination with the land at NGLA and his hand.

It was his efforts, rather than the discovery of hidden natural holes that miraculously resembled the ones he fawned over in the UK.



TEPaul

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2008, 12:47:50 PM »
Richard the Magnificent:

Although I can't remember where or which ones they were, I do remember courses in my early years that had all their holes named but they didn't have anything to do with templates from abroad or anywhere else. They always had something to do with some unique characteristic to do with the particular hole itself.

Bill_McBride

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2008, 03:08:21 PM »
In fact, the only "template" I can think of on UK courses is the "Spien Kop," which we have discussed before, which is little known as it occurs mostly on little known courses.  Because they are little known, they are little copied in the US as they have no street cred.  However, opne of the best "Spien Kop" holes I have ever seen is the 9th at Cypress Point.  I wonder, dd the designer of CPC have any knowledge of the Boer War.......?


I am confused (befuddled  ??? ) about "Spion Kop" holes.  I've played the Spion Kop at Crail Balcomie and I've played the Spion Kop at Castlerock in Northern Ireland.  They could not be any different.

The Spion Kop at Crail is a sturdy, uphill par 3 around 165 yards that plays 10 yards longer.

The Spion Kop at Castlerock is a par 4 around 425 yards that is gently uphill but has a large mound in the middle of the fairway; you pretty much have to play around it unless you are mega-long.

As I understand a "cop" in golf lingo, it's a berm-like low ridge like those we saw outlining the central field at Hoylake.  Here's a photo, that's a "cop" between the photographer and the players on the green:



I know "Spion Kop" refers to a topographical feature in South Africa from the Boer War, but how do the two holes at Crail Balcomie and Castlerock get the name except as a very obscure reference?  One's green is on a mound, the other is protected by a mound 180 yards from the green.

So I guess you are thinking #9 at Cypress Point is benched into a mound so it's also a "Spion Kop?"

JMorgan

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2008, 05:29:31 PM »
Does anyone know who designed the first island green?  Graves and Cornish give credit to Pete Dye (9 at Ponte Vedra) with the comment "several less well know 'islands' preceded it." 

Mr. Phil Young, when did AWT design his first reef hole?

What are the famous American Gibraltar holes?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 05:40:38 PM by JMorgan »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2008, 06:39:57 PM »
Does anyone know who designed the first island green?  Graves and Cornish give credit to Pete Dye (9 at Ponte Vedra) with the comment "several less well know 'islands' preceded it." 

Don't Cornish & Whitten credit RTJ and Strong with Ponte Vedra ?

Tillinghast preceeded Dye by more than a few decades with the island green on # 9 at Shackamaxon.


Mr. Phil Young, when did AWT design his first reef hole?

What are the famous American Gibraltar holes?

JMorgan

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2008, 07:34:28 PM »
Does anyone know who designed the first island green?  Graves and Cornish give credit to Pete Dye (9 at Ponte Vedra) with the comment "several less well know 'islands' preceded it." 

Don't Cornish & Whitten credit RTJ and Strong with Ponte Vedra ?

Tillinghast preceeded Dye by more than a few decades with the island green on # 9 at Shackamaxon.


Mr. Phil Young, when did AWT design his first reef hole?

What are the famous American Gibraltar holes?


Pat, actually I misread it; they don't credit anyone but you are correct.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2008, 08:37:24 PM »
Mike (and Wayne),

That NY Times article is inconclusive.  For example, Tuxedo Park had an "Alps" hole as of 1894.  Was it a template hole or just a hole named "Alps"?

The case for: the green was blind and sat over a hill.

The case against: described as a hole whose "duplicate would be hard to find anywhere in the world."  It was a 146-yard par 3.

Calling it an "Alps hole" doesn't make it an Alps Hole, if you catch my drift.

Crossing the ocean and devolving significantly (sorry for the ramble!), the use in the English language of the word "redan" precedes the Crimean War by a good 50 years.  It simply meant a raised battlement that was leveled off.

The word often is believed to be Russian and which entered the English language as a formal noun attached to a Russian-named fortification.  This is false.  "Redan" was a name given by the British to one of the major forts defending Sebastopol.  The Russians didn't name it Redan.

So by Rhic's excellent research, two vets return home to N Berwick, see the raised green and think, "Redan," i.e., the fortification in the Crimean.

The green, raised as it was, resembled a standard redan fortification.  But in its fearsome challenge, the hole earned the formal noun: the soldiers made a direct link to their wartime experience and named it after the Crimean "Redan."

But there could have been redans on golf courses all across the country.  Such holes could well have been built to mimic generic redans.  Not only that, people named other things "Redan," like horses.  Not sure we've seen any "template" Redan racehorses, though!

Which is kind of my point: the word was around a long time, lots of things might have been named redan -- and then that Crimean fort managed to earn a capital-R "Redan," after which the N Berwick hole, owing to its being named after this specific fort, earned same.

But the soldiers didn't "template" the hole, they just drew a parallel, just stuck a name on it.

So the first template Redan hole would not be N Berwick's, for it was simply named much as other holes are, not for a set of principles but for a likeness or defining feature.  Just like the "Alps hole" at Tuxedo.

The first template would have to be whoever took the underlying principles of how the hole played, then gave a name to those principles: "Redan" as concept.

None of this is probably helpful and even worse looks like a horrible case of showing off but honestly I spent a chunk of last winter looking into the Crimean War owing to my interest in a few photographs plus the N Berwick hole and am grateful an outlet sprung up for this peculiar compulsion!

Mark

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2008, 08:47:42 PM »
There were island greens going way, way, WAY back before Strong's at Ponte Vedra.

There was one at Baltusrol in 1910, which probably inspired Tillinghast, because he built a slew of them, including at his Aronimink club around 1914, at Olde York Road in PA around the same time at Galen Hall just a few years later around 1917, and my favorite of all was built by Hugh Wilson and company at Cobb's Creek, opening 1916.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2008, 08:40:30 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Are you sure that those greens were true island greens, connected to the mainland solely by bridges, or did they have an earthen connector ?

Mike_Cirba

Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2008, 08:43:32 AM »
Patrick,

Yes.

BCrosby

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2008, 11:48:36 AM »
I had always heard that Tillie had several island greens that pre-dated Strong's 9th at PV.

BTW, PV was was to be the site of 1939 Ryder Cup matches, eventually called off because of WWII. It was a highly ranked course in its day, then...

RTJ was asked in the mid-1950's to "soften" Strong's course.

Several years ago Bobby Weed made some good changes, particularly to the par 5's on the back. I do not know if they would count as restorations of Strong's holes.

Bob

Dan Moore

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2008, 05:16:07 PM »
In 1900 H.J. Tweedie laid out a hole called Spioenkop at Homewood CC (now called Flossmoor CC).  Originally a 140 yard uphill shot to a green well bunkered in the front.  Now stretched to 180+ from the tips, the green moves from front to back and from left to right.  A really good par 3 that would be better with the fronting bunker replaced. 

Tweedie was from Royal Liverpool but I have no idea if it was patterned after holes in the UK.  It was however patterned after the hilltop battle site from the Boer war with its green perched atop a plateau with bunkers representing the blow-outs from numerous shells that pock marked the actual Spioenkop in S. Africa. 

"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Bill_McBride

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2008, 05:58:30 PM »
Dan, thanks for that photo, that's more like the Crail par 3 than the par 4 at Castlerock.

JMorgan

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Re: What is the earliest usage of a named template hole in American golf?
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2008, 08:03:59 PM »
There were island greens going way, way, WAY back before Strong's at Ponte Vedra.

There was one at Baltusrol in 1910, which probably inspired Tillinghast, because he built a slew of them, including at his Aronimink club around 1914, at Olde York Road in PA around the same time at Galen Hall just a few years later around 1917, and my favorite of all was built by Hugh Wilson and company at Cobb's Creek, opening 1916.

Mike, I don't think Baltusrol #9 was a true island hole. 

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