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John Sheehan

Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2008, 02:23:17 PM »
The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......

DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?

Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.



Ian,
Can you expand upon this a bit more?  I'd like to refer the Super at our club to this thread, but would like to have a bit more information, a "how to."  The reason I ask is that our course has had a serious Poa seeding problem.  The greens look like the tops of broccoli spears.
Thanks,
John

SL_Solow

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2008, 02:36:28 PM »
Ian;  Denser than A3?

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 02:36:54 PM »
John and Bruce,

Very quickly because Im at work, Ill elaborate more later today....

If the green looks like broccolli tops, without seeing it, I would say he needs to be on a regimented Primo schedule. The Primo is a chemical that inhibits the production of gibberilic acid. Giberillens are the acids that promote new growth at the meristem of the grass plant. Which is right at the very tip of each grass blade.

The primo will balance the growth patterns of the poa and the bent. When a bent green is infested with poa you can tend to see a "broccoli" effect because of their different growing patterns/rates.

I would recommend something like .125 oz/1000 sq ft of primo on a weekly or biweekly basis. If hes not familiar with Proxy (and he probably is), I would also look into that. Proxy in combination with Primo helps with seed head production.

Culturally, if the seedheads are out of control I would recommend brooming the greens to stand up the seedheads and follow immediately with a mow to chop them off. When I broom greens I have ten guys line up with pushbrooms and push them across the green back and forth a couple times. Some guys dont have the resources to do that so mower mounted brooms are also an option.


Bruce,

I can send you some university data on the density of poa, Ill have to look for it though later today. In the meantime, go out on a green and look at a patch of poa next to a patch of bent. get on your hands and knees and brush your finger across each. Youll see what I mean.

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 02:37:47 PM »
SL.,

denser than any of the A's

JohnH

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 02:46:43 PM »
I can attest to one thing in regards to previous notions:

Poa in my opinion is or can be the best putting green surface.

True story from this summer.  A Superintendent acquaintance of mine at a neighboring club and I were discussing his 10 year old bent greens that had serious poa annua infestations and what he could do to get rid of it.  Low and behold, about the second week of July a nasty case of anthracnose popped up and axed a majority of his poa.  Case closed (no that wasn't the plan of attack).

My belief is that by definition a weed (plant out of place) is directly attributed to Poa annua because courses seeded with primarily bent over the last however many years get poa infestations.  It is what it is.  Anyone who sees pristine bentgrass or bermuda greens know when they see poa.  Out of place?  Absolutely.

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2008, 03:06:15 PM »
...another quick note.

in reference to poa annuas density. One of poas characteristics that make it such a threat to infest another dense grass is its density. Bentgrass often losses the battle because its not as dense to keep the poa from choking it out.

Thats often one of the reasons why weeds occur. When a stand of grass is thin, weeds are the first thing to pop up in the holes. When a stand of grass is nice, healthy, lush and thick very little weeds are seen.

a weed by definition is the grass plant that is the minority. the bentgrass plant has always been a weed to me because Ive always wanted the poa to take over.

poa is very dense, denser than bentgrass, as well as moss!!! think about it, if youve ever seen moss on a green it can be just as invasive as poa. And if you feel it, it is a very dense plant.

we should have moss greens!!!

SL_Solow

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2008, 03:12:24 PM »
Ian,  I called Dr. Derek Settle, the in house agronomist and plant pathologist for the Chicago District Golf Association.  He confirms your conclusion that poa is denser than any of the bent strains.  However, he suggests that ,because there is such a great variance among the strains of poa and because it is impossible to cultivate a particular strain,  achieving consistency is much more difficult.  He also confirms poa's greater susceptibility to disease such as anthracnose and nematodes as well as its lesser resistance to heat.  By the way, he is not a crusader to eliminate all poa on golf courses, he simply points out the strengths and weaknesses of various grasses based on research and observation contained in literature as well as that performed on our test plots and observed in the field.

Bruce Leland

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2008, 03:32:19 PM »
Ian, thanks.  We have been using a retardant for the past 7 years to manage the poa so I understand a bit about that aspect of it as well as other management practices that you mention (grooming, etc.).   Your responses are very thoughtful and thorough, however.  I was merely curious about the density and your explanation of it "crowding out" bent makes sense.

Thanks again. 

btw....I am not a Poa basher.  I have putted on some superb Poa greens here in the Midwest for years and love the surface if it's managed properly.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Steve Okula

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2008, 04:02:54 PM »
John and Bruce,

If the green looks like broccolli tops, without seeing it, I would say he needs to be on a regimented Primo schedule. The Primo is a chemical that inhibits the production of gibberilic acid. Giberillens are the acids that promote new growth at the meristem of the grass plant. Which is right at the very tip of each grass blade.

The primo will balance the growth patterns of the poa and the bent. When a bent green is infested with poa you can tend to see a "broccoli" effect because of their different growing patterns/rates.

I would recommend something like .125 oz/1000 sq ft of primo on a weekly or biweekly basis. If hes not familiar with Proxy (and he probably is), I would also look into that. Proxy in combination with Primo helps with seed head production.


You're right Ian, the record needs to be set straight on Poa.

Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.

Meristematic tissue is found in the sheath, at the bottom of the leaf blade, not the tip. Grass, Poa or otherwise,  grows from the bottom up, the tips are the oldest parts of the leaves.

Proxy (ethephon) has shown inconsistent results on Poa seedhead formation. Superintendents from the west coast U.S.A. report better results than those rom the east coast, probably due to the different varieties separated by geography.

Primo does make a world of difference on the smoothness of mixed bent/Poa greens.

Poa does have certain drawbacks, like susceptibility to anthracnose, nematodes, and heat stress. I deal with strains of Poa highly susceptible to Fusarium patch.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2008, 04:11:09 PM »
youre right Steve, thanks. I confused it with the apical meristem found on other plants at their tips.

Eric Johnson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2008, 04:28:11 PM »
The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......

They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.



Ian,
Could you expand on that last line?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2008, 04:35:04 PM »
The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......


poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface. 


WHY?   

Because it is the densest grass out there.


MEANING...   

The ball sits up nice and high creating a great ball roll.


IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES

Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.


DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?

Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.


"poa cant be mowed low enough" ?!?!?!

ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!????   Please tell me why not. Ive seen poa greens on the east and west coast cut at .90". How much lower do you want it?


IS IT LESS HEAT RESISTANT?

Yes, and only because its directing its carbohydrate reserves at maintaining its seed production instead of transpiration. SOLUTION? SYRINGE IT!!! Whats so hard about syringing a green. Which by the way is not "watering a green". "watering a green" is what makes all of you guys end up with wet soggy greens in the summer. All the poa plant needs is a mist at a high frequency throuhout the days heat. It helps it transpirate and prevents overwatering.


DOES IT ROOT SHALLOWER?

Yep, but only when the super isnt doing everything he needs to be doing to get those roots deep in the fall winter and spring. Then maintain through the summer. The super needs to aerify at the right times of the year. He needs to fine tune his fert program. I cant believe the amount of supers who dont pay attention to soil reports and adjust their fert program to it. I see alot that only like granulars a handful of times throughout the year creating peaks and valleys in the greens growth pattern, not helping the roots. I see alot that just go out with cheap fert that isnt chelated or complexed with anything, the plant doesnt want to eat it. Its like giving a kid a flintstones vitamin. The plant is the same way, if the fert is cheap it has a salt content in it that the plant just closes its mouth when you hold the spoon up to it. Supers need to not only think about NPK but also Auxins, Gibberelins and Cytokynins. And then add them to their programs. These occur naturally in the plant and are the communicators between the roots, the crown and the foliage. Theyre vital and supers rarely have them on their radar.


THE SUPER HAS TO BE ON THE BALL

If hes not then poa is the wrong grass for your club. There are a ton of clubs all over the country that have poa greens and are in extreme enviornments. And they are succesful.


WHAT PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE PLAYED ON POA?

I would have to say almost 100%. Just look at the past ten years. The open has been played at this countries best clubs. And what are their greens? poa.


NATURAL SELECTION

I would say that the most of us are golf purists. And if so why is poa being looked at so badly? If a bent green gets naturally taken over by poa then switch the management practices over to poa!! It naturally wants to be there!!!  Embrace it. Its a great putting surface!!!  But with that comes a tight program enforced by the super. If your super isnt good enough then switching over to the new bermudas or contiunually regrassing with bent is whats best for your club.


THE OAKMONTS, WINGED FOOTS, SHINNECOCKS, MERIONS, RIVIERAS and PEBBLE BEACHS "GET IT".

They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.



Its certainly not the best surface. In many cases its the only surface though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark_Fine

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2008, 04:55:19 PM »
Sorry, I have not read any of the posts so this might have already been covered but in the last 100 years, how many U.S. Opens have been contested on anything but Poa greens?  The answer might surprise some people  ;)

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2008, 05:05:21 PM »
...
Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
...

I know I can put giberellic acid on my camellias to make them bloom earlier and bloom larger. If I put this Primo on will it make them bloom later and smaller?

No back to you regularly scheduled show. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2008, 05:32:50 PM »
And  for my 100th post!




Adrian,

Could you tell us what IS the best surface is and why?



Eric,

I knew someone would question that last line.....

"They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget."

This is what it come downs to.

I either know personally what alot of these clubs do or I have / had friends that work there, so Im generally familiar with their level of management practices. Ive also woked at numerous major tournaments. So its interesting to see the different levels of management from course to course.

Let me start with what DOESNT impress me.

1. Supers that allow the greens to be overwatered just to avoid any signs of stress. If a super has poa greens and the staff is gone at 3 on a hot day, the greens are being overwatered. Greens need to be syringed, not watered. Mist them lightly and frequently throughout the day. Only watering with a volume of water on the localized dry / hot spots. If staff and budgeting is an issue then the assistant and super, who are on salary, should be out there doing it. No cost to the club.

2. Supers that really dont have a fertilization program. When asked they say they go out with some generic and cheap NPK source. 20-20-20 or a 10-10-10. With Iron. That is putting absolutely no thought into a program. AND I SEE IT ALOT!!! I would bet the bank that their soil reports arent showing completely equal deficiencies in NPK. They are all needed at different rates at different times throughout the year. And like I said before, ITS RARE A SUPER IS THINKING ABOUT AUXINS, GIBBERILINS AND CYTOKYNINS. To most, products engineered with these are called snake oils. How is it a snake oil when these are naturally occurring substances in the grass plant? They are beneficial beyond belief!!

3. Supers that dont pay attention to the cultivation & grooming of their greens. Got alot of thatch and organic matter? Then think about changing the tine size and spacing on the aerifier!!! Dont keep doing what youre doing because "thats how its always been done". Are the greens puffy and bumpy? Then get them on a tighter verticutting and topdressing program. They could also be overfertilized. All the Nitrogen being put down in the summertime isnt necessarry and puffing up the grass plant. Again, look at the fert. This is also at no additional cost to the club.


When I made that comment about the top 100 clubs that host championships with poa greens I meant it. But let me also say that their are tons of other courses that arent on the top 100 with humble budgets that also get it done. And thats because they have an intelligent super that cares enough and can think outside the box and gets it done one way or another.

But my whole point with that comment is that you could walk into any operation at those clubs I mentioned, which also includes numerous others, and you can just tell that "they get it".

1. They are very specific and careful how greens get handwatered. They dont just throw some chump out there and say "water these".

2. The fert programs are very meticulous and thought out and cover all facets of the plants nutrition both foliarly and in the soil.

3. The cultivation and grooming program is scheduled like clockwork.


Operations like these achieve great greens through sound and aggressive agronomics. Doesnt matter if its poa, bent or bermuda. Managing a green correctly doesnt equate to alot more money.



« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 05:36:40 PM by Ian Larson »

Scott Stambaugh

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2008, 08:36:54 PM »
Ian-

How about a summary of your work history?

 

John Kirk

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2008, 09:07:42 PM »
Just so you know, Ian...

When I played Merion about 3-4 yeears ago, their greens were 90-95% bent grass.  Very fast and smooth.

Also, Riviera has poa greens, but they overseed with bent in a cross-hatch pattern on a regular basis, and the greens have a significant percentage of both.


Pat Brockwell

Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2008, 09:43:14 PM »
Several years ago I had a salesman from Scott's look at my greens, ( pre-Black Mesa) which had quite a bit of poa and some anthracnose.  He looked very pleased and declared "I see you're using our TGR" (turf growth regulator, promoted and sold for poa control).  When I told him no, it was anthracnose, he said he could sell me some fungicide that would clear it right up.
 "More supers have lost their jobs because of chemical salesmen than bad weather" Joe Tiano, PGA Pro that gave me my first job in the golf bidness.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2008, 09:44:20 PM »
John,

Yes I know that the east at Merion is mostly bent since the renovation. The west however is still mostly poa. I was also told that they are not fighting the poa off the east's greens and by the 2013 Open they will mostly be poa. Can anyone on GCA confirm that?

And Im familiar with Riv's greens, I used to work there. They drop-spread bent after they aerify or graden verticut. To be quite honest, that works to a point but its not that easy to interseed bent on a poa green and have a huge success with germination. The bent definitely doesnt out compete the poa. But regardless, in my experience, you still can get small percentages of new bent to germinate. By the way Matt at Merion and Matt at Riviera are some of the most talented supers out there.

Michael Powers

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2008, 11:28:02 PM »
A few questions for the turf experts.

I have been told that poa annua plants cannot survive for  as long as bent grass while ice covers a green for extended periods of time.  True or false?

Also, is the poa annua on the west coast identical to the poa annua on the east coast?

Finally, I have been told by some supers that there are products that prevent poa from encroaching on bentgrass without hurting the bentgrass turf. True or false?

HP

Eric Johnson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2008, 12:41:20 AM »
And  for my 100th post!




Adrian,

Could you tell us what IS the best surface is and why?



Eric,

I knew someone would question that last line.....

"They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget."

This is what it come downs to.

I either know personally what alot of these clubs do or I have / had friends that work there, so Im generally familiar with their level of management practices. Ive also woked at numerous major tournaments. So its interesting to see the different levels of management from course to course.

Let me start with what DOESNT impress me.

1. Supers that allow the greens to be overwatered just to avoid any signs of stress. If a super has poa greens and the staff is gone at 3 on a hot day, the greens are being overwatered. Greens need to be syringed, not watered. Mist them lightly and frequently throughout the day. Only watering with a volume of water on the localized dry / hot spots. If staff and budgeting is an issue then the assistant and super, who are on salary, should be out there doing it. No cost to the club.

2. Supers that really dont have a fertilization program. When asked they say they go out with some generic and cheap NPK source. 20-20-20 or a 10-10-10. With Iron. That is putting absolutely no thought into a program. AND I SEE IT ALOT!!! I would bet the bank that their soil reports arent showing completely equal deficiencies in NPK. They are all needed at different rates at different times throughout the year. And like I said before, ITS RARE A SUPER IS THINKING ABOUT AUXINS, GIBBERILINS AND CYTOKYNINS. To most, products engineered with these are called snake oils. How is it a snake oil when these are naturally occurring substances in the grass plant? They are beneficial beyond belief!!

3. Supers that dont pay attention to the cultivation & grooming of their greens. Got alot of thatch and organic matter? Then think about changing the tine size and spacing on the aerifier!!! Dont keep doing what youre doing because "thats how its always been done". Are the greens puffy and bumpy? Then get them on a tighter verticutting and topdressing program. They could also be overfertilized. All the Nitrogen being put down in the summertime isnt necessarry and puffing up the grass plant. Again, look at the fert. This is also at no additional cost to the club.


When I made that comment about the top 100 clubs that host championships with poa greens I meant it. But let me also say that their are tons of other courses that arent on the top 100 with humble budgets that also get it done. And thats because they have an intelligent super that cares enough and can think outside the box and gets it done one way or another.

But my whole point with that comment is that you could walk into any operation at those clubs I mentioned, which also includes numerous others, and you can just tell that "they get it".

1. They are very specific and careful how greens get handwatered. They dont just throw some chump out there and say "water these".

2. The fert programs are very meticulous and thought out and cover all facets of the plants nutrition both foliarly and in the soil.

3. The cultivation and grooming program is scheduled like clockwork.


Operations like these achieve great greens through sound and aggressive agronomics. Doesnt matter if its poa, bent or bermuda. Managing a green correctly doesnt equate to alot more money.





1. "No cost to the club"  Are you suggesting the time of the Superintendent and the Assistant Superintendent is of no value?  ANY TIME ANYONE is working on the golf course and/or club, that time has a value. 

2. What does a growth regulator like Primo regulate?  What is one of the active ingredients in A____n or Seaweed or Kelp Extract?  Would you implement a program with both as components of the program?  Why? 

Have you ever seen a Phosphorus deficient grass plant or for that matter Potassium?  Do a little research into the work Dr. Rossi has embarked on regarding fertility needs (no conclusions but interesting data nonetheless). 

Have you ever seen a soil report that doesn't show a deficiency among the cations that requires attention?  Have you thought that maybe the recommendations within the soil test are based on yield (plant growth) not on plant health and surface playability

3. If you decrease the fertilization of a given area and increase the vertical mowing/grooming and topdressing, are you sure there is no additional cost to the club?  I remember paying $75/yard for green topdressing sand back in 1998.  I cannot fathom the cost of that sand today.  Also when decreasing the fertility, would you not increase the risk of Anthracnose and other secondary pathogens associated with low fertility?  Fungicides cost money too. 


Ian, I hope this didn't seem too harsh but, I had to throw my three cents into the fray.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2008, 02:18:59 AM »
...
Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
...

I know I can put giberellic acid on my camellias to make them bloom earlier and bloom larger. If I put this Primo on will it make them bloom later and smaller?

No back to you regularly scheduled show. ;)


In theory, yes. But it will make the whole plant smaller and slower-growing, leaves and all.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2008, 02:21:03 AM »
...
Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
...

I know I can put giberellic acid on my camellias to make them bloom earlier and bloom larger. If I put this Primo on will it make them bloom later and smaller?

No back to you regularly scheduled show. ;)


In theory, yes. But it will make the whole plant smaller and slower-growing, leaves and all.

Are we still talking about grass? Or are we talking about something more personal :)?

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2008, 05:20:42 AM »
In New Zealand, it was realised some time ago that with the budgets we operate on, complete removal or eradication of poa is simply a pipe dream. So a number of courses have embraced it and in fact now build new greens and propagate them with the corings of the other poa greens on the course.

The results are greens that are grown in and in play up to 2 months sooner than seeding, a much more consistent surface with the rest of the course both in putting and ball reaction upon hitting the green, an easier maintenance program of being able to treat all the greens as the same grass species.

Most of the poa greens here that putt well are long established and have "mutated" into a strain of perennial poa that has much higher density and low seed head production. I have seen these same changes occur in greens of around 10 years old so this maybe represents a time frame for the "mutation" of the grass to take place.

I have personally yet to see a course have success in achieving a totally poa free surface. Many of the chemicals used to control the poa have negative effects on the desirable grasses also.

In my opinion, the best way to discourage poa is through the "acid theory" management approach of controling the PH in favour of the desired grass which is in conflict with the Ph for poa.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2008, 05:26:31 AM »
Bentgrass is a better surface. A pure fescue sward is magnificent also, I have little knowledge of Bermuda's or other southern turf grasses.
I would have thought most supers strive to have surfaces free of poa, though its not easy and in some climates impossible(ish) and by (ish) I think you could keep poa free swards in these difficult areas if you did not play on them when the weather was a bit off... ie in the UK most of the time, so thats not practical.
Pure swards are exactly that, the behaviour of the grass is pretty much the same so the grasses grow together and whilst they may be at 3mm at 7.AM they are likely to be say 4mm at NOON.
Poa comes in many types even over a squared metre and whilst the plants may all be at 3mm early, those plants are not the same height later in the day, resulting in a bumpy surface. Poa is possibilty the least disease resistant of the 'grasses' and there are plenty of nastys that take patches out, resulting in bumpy greens.
As I said in my first post, its often the only grass and the positives and negatives with this plant is it grows where many others wont.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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