[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

In the greater NYC area, what about Alpine (Tillinghast) Green Brook (Travis) Shackamaxon (Tillinghast) Sunningdale (Tillinghast)  Nassau (Emmett) Seawane (Emmett) Crestmont (Ross) Englewood NLE (Ross)

In the "Golden Age" I think the Jewish clubs, created because Jews couldn't gain entry to the "iconic" local clubs, retained the name architects and gave them the assignment of creating clubs on a par with the "iconic" clubs.

It would be interesting to look at other areas such as Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, etc., etc.. to see if the same pattern exists.

Pat,

You are correct- Park, jr, Tillinghast, Ross, Colt/Alison, Raynor, etc all did work in the "Golden Age" for "HJC" In my first post on this thread in '08 I referenced :

Golf Digest

Quaker Ridge is 33 in America's Greatest 100 and  7 in NY state
Century is 20 in NY state
Franklin Hills is 21 in Michigan
Mountain Ridge is 14 in NJ
Hollywood is 15 in NJ
Broadmoor is 15 in Indiana

Golfweek

Quaker Ridge is 35 in Best Classic
Fenway is 60 in Best Classic
Franklin Hills is 63 in Best Classic
Engineers is 79 in Best Classic
Hollywood is 83 in Best Classic

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

The courses that you mentioned above in your most recent post in NY have been mentioned in this very long thread at various times. My original post referenced those courses as the ones that are highly rated.  Certainly, the Golden Age architects produced many courses for "HJC" clubs in the NY area and elsewhere. For example, you did not mention Inwood(Strong)- the original Fresh Meadow ( Tillinghast) & North Shore (Raynor) among others in NY.

The Philadelphia area had Philmont North (Park, Jr) and South (Reid/Wilson) - Ashbourne ( NLE, Park, Jr) - Green Valley (Flynn) - Woodcrest (Flynn)

I'll do Boston, Chicago, L A, etc later, limited to those courses done in the "Golden Age. "

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

I suspect that you'll find quality "golden age" courses at the other locations as well.

[J_ Crisham]

In Chicago a  HJC might struggle to place in the top 15 courses. The 2 in my mind that could be amongst the top 15 are Lake Shore and Briarwood. The others are all 2nd tier courses. Ravisloe, Idlewild, Twin Orchards, Bryn Mawr all nice places but not anything special IMO . I'm probably leaving out a couple. In Chicago the top dogs are CGC , Shoreacres , OFCC North, Medinah, Skokie, Butler, Beverly, Flossmoor , Old Elm , OFCC South, Black Sheep, Glen View Club, Butterfield , Edgewood Valley , Onwentsia , Elgin and Conway Farms.

[Phil Young]

Steve,

Left off of your list of NY area courses was the estate course of Adolf Zukor the founder of Paramount studios that Tillinghast designed. Its known as Paramount CC today.

Another one that Tilly designed was the 9-hole Ingleside course which was sold and the members would later move to Alpharetta, Georgia where they enjoy the Standard Club sits. Interestingly, the Ingleside course would become the first African-American club in Atlanta...

[Jud_T]

J_Crisham,

Conditioning aside, do you honestly think Lake Shore is a better course than Ravisloe?  Personally, I don't see it.  Lake Shore, even with a nice Prichard resto/reno, is pretty meh IMO.  You also left off Green Acres, originally the Illinois Golf Club designed by Tilly.

[Mike Schott]

If I marry a Jewish girl can I join Franklin Hills?

  Maybe not, but your future son can.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Getting back on topic....once again...


Phil,

My mentions of other courses were not meant to be comprehensive but how could I forget Dellwood/Paramount, particularly since I've played the course . Also, how could you forget Tilly's Old Oaks in Purchase, NY?  

[JMEvensky]

Was there any club whose difficulties were NOT caused,in the main, by assimilation?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jeff,

That's a difficult question. Most clubs have adapted to assimilation and intermarriage. The more important factors are changing demographics and economic realities and modern family life.  Ashbourne (1915, NLE) in Philly, for example, was located in a changing neighborhood, the membership got old, the younger members left for another club and the club was sold to a real estate developer who tried to keep it open as a public course but even that didn't work. Now, it's going to be a housing development.

[JMEvensky]

Jeff,

That's a difficult question. Most clubs have adapted to assimilation and intermarriage. The more important factors are changing demographics and economic realities and modern family life.  Ashbourne (1915, NLE) in Philly, for example, was located in a changing neighborhood, the membership got old, the younger members left for another club and the club was sold to a real estate developer who tried to keep it open as a public course but even that didn't work. Now, it's going to be a housing development.

You're right--it's probably unanswerable. I guess my premise would be assimilation was the root cause until proved differently--even though I know there is no "proof".

[Phil Young]

Steve,

I knew that the list wasn't comprehensive but I believe that its a bit significant that Tilly designed so many Jewish clubs especially in the New York area. I've always been fascinated with the relationships which led to specific architects obtaining specific commissions. For example, it was probably Tilly's friend Thomas Edison who introduced him to Zukor. Edison designed the lighting systems for Zukor's early studios and were good friends.

I didn't forget Old Oaks because I didn't know that it was a "Jewish" club... 

[Jim_Coleman]

   Has anyone mentioned Pine Brook and Blue Hills in the Boston area?  Porky Oliver was the pro at Blue Hills in the '50's and 60's.

[Bill Crane]

While I have read this post in segments, have not noticed the mention of Greenacres CC in Lawrenceville, NJ not far from us in Princeton.  Not clear to me who did the original design work.

https://www.greenacres.club/

Founded in 1938 the club has been an active force in Mercer County golf for decades.  For many years it was noted as having the best restaurant in the county.

They keep chugging along despite some membership challenges in the past few years.


   Wm Flynnfan

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jim,

Just doing some research on Boston:

Pine Brook ( Van Cleek&Stiles, 1924)  and Blue Hill ( Eugene “Skip” Wogan, 1925) are indeed "HJC"

Belmont (Ross, 1918) and Kernwood (Ross, 1914:) are others in the Boston area.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill,

Yes, Greenacres ( Emmett/Tull, 1938) should be mentioned here. I know they had membership problems there a few years ago but are now attracting members from Bucks County.

[mike_beene]

To try to get the information into this excellent thread, Dallas had one historically Jewish club called the Columbian Club.It is an excellent course designed by Ralph Plummer which and is as good as anything in Dallas. A few years ago the club which was to my understanding down to less than 200 members sold to a man from my club who is reforming it as a golf club called the Honors Club and has a dpredesign from .Steve Smeyers(sp?) which will if executed destroy an excellent course.The new plans may be fine,I just hate to see the excellent course changed. They would like a big tournament,I think. Columbian is a little removed from central Dallas and from the Preston Hollow/Near North Dallas Jewish areas.Now 3 of my regular group of 12 are Jewish and the integration in the clubs has been the downfall of Columbian I believe

[J_ Crisham]

J_Crisham,

Conditioning aside, do you honestly think Lake Shore is a better course than Ravisloe?  Personally, I don't see it.  Lake Shore, even with a nice Prichard resto/reno, is pretty meh IMO.  You also left off Green Acres, originally the Illinois Golf Club designed by Tilly.

Jud-   Your question is a good one- I think the Prichard restoration gives the edge to Lake Shore. I enjoy Ravisloe particularly the par 3's and short 4's. If Rav would have a restoration by Prichard the upside potential might make it the best public in Chicago . The bones of the course are solid but it could be so much more , conditioning aside. Removing about 500 trees would be a great start. Lake Shore is a course I always enjoy playing . The only criticism I have of LS is the use of the ravines while good is not as spectacular as at Shoreacres. As I mentioned in my original post , I'm sure I left out a HJC or two- Greenacres is a club I've not been . Briarwood I've played only once and really liked it other than the tree in the middle of the 18th fairway. This is a course I could play every day and not tire of. It's a hidden gem in Chicago that you rarely hear of- maybe that's how they want it? All of the other 20 plus courses mentioned I have had the good fortune to play on several occasions.

[Matthew Sander]

Hi Jack,

Ravisloe did undergo some recent touch up work, however it was done by David Esler and not Ron Prichard. Assuming you've payed there since the work, do you think he missed the mark in any way other than tree removal?

[Andrew Buck]

I thought the touch up work was well done, as I played it a few times not long after the renovation.  Unfortunately, it took place long enough ago that tree removal was likely a harder sell.

[J_ Crisham]

Hi Jack,

Ravisloe did undergo some recent touch up work, however it was done by David Esler and not Ron Prichard. Assuming you've payed there since the work, do you think he missed the mark in any way other than tree removal?

Matt,  I last played Rav in August- it's fun , I like it but it could be much more IMO . The trees are my main complaint but I also believe that I could pick out 300 trees at Bev which if removed would make our course better. Not sure if Esler recaptured the original green pads ? I'm a homer for Prichard for the following reasons: Evanston, Beverly , Charles River, Aronimink ,Minikhada , Cedar Rapids , Franklin Hills, Mtn Ridge and the list goes on. If it's Ross- he's the man.

[Matthew Sander]

Matt,  I last played Rav in August- it's fun , I like it but it could be much more IMO . The trees are my main complaint but I also believe that I could pick out 300 trees at Bev which if removed would make our course better. Not sure if Esler recaptured the original green pads ? I'm a homer for Prichard for the following reasons: Evanston, Beverly , Charles River, Aronimink ,Minikhada , Cedar Rapids , Franklin Hills, Mtn Ridge and the list goes on. If it's Ross- he's the man.

Don't forget Exmoor's place on the Prichard resume. Although I'll wait for Dan Moore's book to understand Ross's role in their convoluted architectural history...

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

Don't forget Prichard's wonderful work on Langford's design at Skokie.

I'd go with Rav over Lakeshore.  The bones were better from the start.

Northmoor should be on the list for Chicago.

Sven

[Jud_T]

Sven & Matt,

I agree on both counts (particularly Skokie) but I'm not sure either should be mentioned in a thread about HJC. 

[Tim Martin]

You missed Tillinghast's Alpine (originally named Aldecress) in New  Jersey. Some of the most devilish greens I have ever played.

http://www.alpinecc.org/Files/Library/TheNewCourseofAldecress.pdf

I recently got a chance to play Alpine and come away with the feeling that there should be more discussion about this golf course. Tillinghast routed a beauty through a site filled with elevation change and interesting land forms. First off the conditioning was incredible with a set of greens that have plenty of slope and cool contouring. The mix of holes is fantastic with particular emphasis on a handful of short par fours. This course sits in the shadow of Manhattan high above the Hudson and despite a fairly landlocked area pretty much hides in plain sight a good ways off the road. Finally I wouldn't tire of playing Alpine and as a disillusioned Irish Catholic wonder if god's chosen might find some sort of special membership option for someone outside the tribe? I can guarantee the board that I'm at least thirteen years old and would be open to a bar mitzvah if it includes full playing privileges.

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