[Garland Bayley]

...
I alluded to this in a previous post, but for me living in the SLC area, there are a handful of courses that look similar based on the photos provided.  ...

Although I have not played golf in the SLC area, I have driven various ways through the area several times. I doubt you would find the same experience anywhere there. If you are referring to TP, from pictures and the satellite view we have discussed, it can not be considered remotely similar.

If your read the SI article, then you know Stephen Kay thinks it is more Ireland than Utah!

[George Pazin]

The course looks as though it possesses the kind of simple beauty that is timeless.

Thanks for sharing, hope you follow through with 13-18.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Seeing the northern plains is indeed an interesting thing but if the golf connection is what lies at the heart of your quiry then I'd say no.

LND is a very good course -- but it's not Thanksgiving Point or South Mountain, two courses you are quite familiar as am I. It's below the qualities of those two SLC layouts. Remoteness has been a very good selling point for plenty of northern plains courses but if you were to head out I'd recommend going through the Rapid City area because then you can play Red Rock (extremely underrated) and the local muni in town Meadowbrook which is also quite good and on par with LND.

In terms of North Dakota public golf LND is indeed something very special. I think the course starts very slowly -- although others may disagree -- but from the 7th you get a good mixture of holes with an interesting conclusion with the final trio of holes.

For those not exposed to quality public design in a wide array of different locales the experience at LND will be very enjoyable. If you have sampled such quality golf you will be scratching your head and say something of this type - "very nice course but not one I would make a special trip outside of 100 miles to see."

[Jim Johnson]

The second hole is a very good hole. It is better than #7, where Matt Ward says the course finally gets started. The drive is a bite off all you can chew risk reward situation over crossing bunkers. The approach is to a well bunkered, shyline green. If you successfully cleared the furthest bunker and left yourself with a short pitch to the green, you have to deal with the bunkering. If you took a much less aggressive line off the tee, then although you have a longer approach shot, you have less worriy from the green side bunkers. I would love to play this hole many times and test the options.

The photo below gives a better idea of what one is faced with when approaching the green on hole #2. This is viewed from the far right side of the landing zone. A short pitch over the bunker has room to spare before nestling next to the flagstick. If one drives their tee shot over to the far left, the golfer is faced with a tricky little wedge just over the 3 greenside bunkers, to a green running away to the back right.


                                                                                                          photo credit: Jay Flemma, A Walk in the Park

[Kalen Braley]

...
I alluded to this in a previous post, but for me living in the SLC area, there are a handful of courses that look similar based on the photos provided.  ...

Although I have not played golf in the SLC area, I have driven various ways through the area several times. I doubt you would find the same experience anywhere there. If you are referring to TP, from pictures and the satellite view we have discussed, it can not be considered remotely similar.

If your read the SI article, then you know Stephen Kay thinks it is more Ireland than Utah!

Garland,

Here are some pice of a local course, less than 25 minutes away.   Do you not think these are at least similar?

[Kalen Braley]

More pics from a different course...and this one is only 15 minutes away.   

[Garland Bayley]

Yes, Kalen, your courses in Utah have greens, fairways, bunkers, and a lake. But, are they located in the great plains, where the wind blows without hindrance for miles and miles and miles? Does every hole change direction and take to new terrain? Do you play around the base of a hill on one hole, change direction and play up a draw on the next hole, then change direction and follow a curving ridge on the following hole? Pictures tell very little about the real nature of the place, but one thing is for certain the pictures you show do not show the splendid isolation that is LND!

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

Funny you should ask.  Both of those courses are very exposed and usually play in windy conditions.  The holes do in fact run in every direction with both draw and fade requirements off the tee.  The SLC area is very open and sits in the middle of a high desert plain.

And the particular day I played the course near Utah Lake, the wind was whipping so hard we had to stop for a few holes because there was too much dust in the air to see more than 100 yards in front of you.  Why don't you come on down to SLC and we can go check it out!!    

[Garland Bayley]

...The SLC area is very open and sits in the middle of a high desert plain.
...

Yes, and the Wasatch Mts. are just little mole hills on that plain.

[Kalen Braley]

...The SLC area is very open and sits in the middle of a high desert plain.
...

Yes, and the Wasatch Mts. are just little mole hills on that plain.

The Wascatch Mountains are indeed Mountains....but they occupy relativly little space in the State of Utah.  Most of Utah is large, wide open, wind swept high desert!!

All those arches and unusual rock formations in the Southern part of the state didn't get formed by calm conditions over the years!! 

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

I've had the good fortune in being to both of the locations -- LND and the greater SLC area for Thanksgiving Point and South Mountain.

I can firmly attest to your knowledge of the area and how the wind pattern can blow. Clearly, when others make comments about courses they know nothing about and of the topopgrahy in question it can make for ignorance is bliss statements.

You asked previously about the "need" to make such a visit to Ray, ND. I'd say for folks who have not been exposed to high quality golf design the visit may be fruitful. However, if you have played a number of top tier public layouts the visit to LND is not a mandatory or necessary one. For example, if the visit were to Wild Horse in Gothenburg, NE -- my reply would be far different. Even for Red Rock in Rapid City, SD I might say a similar thing.

LND has a number of unique and fun holes - the remoteness has been many ways a huge plus for the courses's overall standing. For those who don't have at their doorstep high quality design the adventure in going to such a location may be well worth it.

Kalen, being in UT you are blessed with some interesting and even more uniquely designed public courses than LND. I'd say your best bet for a side trek is to the greater St. George / Mesquite area. There you will encounter a fuller range of different and at times exciting public design options.

[Garland Bayley]

...The holes do in fact run in every direction with both draw and fade requirements off the tee.  The SLC area is very open and sits in the middle of a high desert plain.
...

Do you have google earth shots, or better yet, names so I can look myself?

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

Here is a link to the course via Google Maps.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=40.318704,-111.896782&spn=0.014528,0.041757&t=h&z=15

The aerials don't show the significant elevation differentials, but they are indeed there. And Being right on the lake, the prevailing southernly winds can wreak havoc.  Its a good course that is unfortunately being slowly ruined with the housing component.  But for now the back 9 still plays pretty much housing free.

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

I know it is hard to see the elevation from the pictures and the google maps/earth, but it is hard to imagine that housing development/cartball track comes remotely close to LND.

So what was your second set of pictures?

[Jim Johnson]

The course looks as though it possesses the kind of simple beauty that is timeless.

Thanks for sharing, hope you follow through with 13-18.

George, I hope to finish with this tomorrow evening; I've been away for 4 days on our annual "late August golf trip".

JJ

[Jim Johnson]

Kalen, I see more trees in that first picture of yours than I've seen on all of the LND course (on the course proper)...white sand bunkers...artificial (?) mounding...flatness...jet plane....airport...chain link fencing...buildings....highway bridge...

The course was built on a shoestring budget, basically "placed" upon the landscape, and very little of the course was manufactured. I've read that 7,000 cubic yards of soil were moved during construction. 

I would agree with Matt's statement that the remoteness of the course has been, in a quirky kind of way, a plus for its overall standing. The Links of North Dakota occupies a very remote wilderness setting, essentially miles from nowhere (the closest town of any size - Ray, N.D. - is about 15 miles away). There is a small bit of accomplishment upon simply arriving at the golf course, it is that remote. After arrival, a sense of relaxation settles in, knowing that for the next three or four hours one can essentially forget about life and enjoy being one with nature and what this particular setting offers. Not every golf course features that kind of solitude. No jet planes, no buildings on the horizon, no vehicles, etc.

Just you and that golf ball, on the high plains of the northern States.

JJ

[Kalen Braley]

JJ,

Fair enough, the course certainly is very remote, and I'm sure thats a big plus.  And I can also appreciate that the course was built on a teeny budget.

My only point was that I couldn't see myself traveling that far away and incurring all those costs just to get away from jets, cars, and people in general.  If I'm in that kind of mood, there are plenty of just as remote places to do that here in Utah as well...there just aren't any golf courses there. 

[Jim Johnson]

And on we go, to the final 6 holes of the course...

Hole #13


Hole #13 continues the string of five consecutive par-4 holes, which began with #12. The short, uphill 13th has the narrowest fairway on the course, and plays tougher than it looks.





As viewed from behind the green, the green is long and narrow with bunkers right and a gathering area left of the green.





Hole #14


Greenside bunkers on the left make it advisable to keep your tee shot to the right center of the fairway.



A tough up and down awaits if you miss the green short and left. The green slopes back to front providing quick downhill putts.





Hole #15


Position your tee shot down the left center of the fairway to have the shortest distance to the green on this long par four.





There is plenty of room on the right side of the fairway for your tee shot, as the fairway is at least 100 yards in width in the landing zone. Your approach will be much longer, but you will have a clearer shot to the green and will be afforded room for a run-up type shot.



A slight downhill approach shot requires less club and if missed, miss to the left of the green and not right, if you want to find your ball.





Hole #16


It's advised to favor the left center of this wide and inviting fairway.



An accurate approach shot is necessary not only to avoid the bunkers short and right of the green but also to give you a chance at birdie on this undulating and challenging green.

View from right side of fairway...



View from left side...





Hole #17


This dramatic downhill par three plays much shorter than the yardage indicated on the scorecard.



An errant tee shot to the left almost guarantees at least a bogey, while pars can be made if you miss short and to the right of the green.





Hole #18


Depending on the wind direction, this finishing hole can be challenging. Getting your tee shot to finish in the hard-sloping fairway can sometimes be the most challenging shot.



Staying in the fairway is imperative if you want a reasonable chance at reaching the green.



A large green, some 40 paces deep, guarded by a quartet of bunkers, awaits your approach shot.





JJ

[Jim Johnson]

Did anyone happen to golf at Red Mike (Links of North Dakota) this season? I didn't get down there to play this year, and when we were there last season I bumped into one of the owners in the clubhouse who told me that they were going to resurface their fairways.
Just curious as to what the playing conditions were like this year.


JJ

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The issue for me w LND at Red Mike is not the last 2/3's of the course -- many of the holes in that stretch are well done -- the par-3 17th is quite special indeed.

The issue is how lame the first third of the course is for me. Only when you step on the tee box of the par-5 7th does the course really start to flex some serious design muscle.

By the way -- great pics !

Thanks for sharing.

[Tony Weiler]

Did anyone happen to golf at Red Mike (Links of North Dakota) this season? I didn't get down there to play this year, and when we were there last season I bumped into one of the owners in the clubhouse who told me that they were going to resurface their fairways.
Just curious as to what the playing conditions were like this year.


JJ

Jim, I played it the end of August.  Phenomenal conditions.  Not sure about resurfacing, but fairways are really good, firm and maybe as good as they've been.  We have had great grass growing conditions the last couple summers, to that helps.  I will post more later when time permits. 

[Garland Bayley]

Jim:

The issue for me w LND at Red Mike is not the last 2/3's of the course -- many of the holes in that stretch are well done -- the par-3 17th is quite special indeed.

The issue is how lame the first third of the course is for me. Only when you step on the tee box of the par-5 7th does the course really start to flex some serious design muscle.

By the way -- great pics !

Thanks for sharing.

Matt,

Obviously you did not read what Jim has written. As you see, he disagrees with you. As probably does every golfer from this site that has played the course. As usual, you are pushing your minority opinion.

...

Matt Ward has stated that he feels the Links doesn’t really get going until the par-5 seventh. I would politely disagree. The Links has me the moment I crest the rise in the second fairway and get my first real close look at Lake Sakakawea, named after the young woman who helped guide Lewis and Clark in their western travels.
...

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Be sure to play the other courses I have played and when you do -- that's if you do -- you can then browbeat me about what you believe I don't know.

I never said LND was not a good golf course -- just not as good as the others I've mentioned. By the way Black Mesa is much, much better -- ditto the likes of Wine Valley and places such as Sand Hollow in the St. George area get little attention.

Remoteness alone is not the measure of design greatness.

[Jim Johnson]

Guys,

This is one of the reasons I left this DG two years ago. Play nice, gents.

Note the dates of my posts. All I wanted to know was, what were the conditions like this year?
Tony helped with that, thanks Tony.

The reason I asked was, the last time we played it, they'd had some tough luck maintaining their (bentgrass) fairways, and I recalled, as I was talking with one of the maintenance staff out on the course during our round about their tough luck, that Duane Sharpe (Blackhawk, Alberta Canada) had mentioned on this forum how much more difficult/expensive it is to maintain bentgrass fairways vs. bluegrass fairways. It struck me as odd that the owner talked about overseeding the fairways with newer(?) bentgrasses.


JJ

[Garland Bayley]

...
I never said LND was not a good golf course -- just not as good as the others I've mentioned. By the way Black Mesa is much, much better ...

Once again, the "much, much better" is a minority opinion since Golfweek has had them flipping relative positions for the last four years, which would indicate the consensus is that they are fairly equal.

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