[Nick Schaan]

I had the chance to work on this with John, and as an alum, and particularrily one of "those" students who joined the landscape architecture program only as an avenue to get into the golf design buisness it is a real thrill to see that the school saw this thing through finally. I wish I could have stayed with John to see it completed, however opportunity was knocking.

The amount of soil moved was slightly less (by plan) as I recall than 700k, most of which was required to soften bold long slopes just enough to lend to golf. For those unfamiliar wiht the Palouse Landscape, it is formed by blown volcanic ash over basalt, and some of the most fertile dry farming ground in the world. I doubt many architects would have considered it a world class site, I wouldn't, but the result is very nice for a university facility.

Folks should check out a place south of San Jose called Cinnibar Hills also by John.

John does a great job on projects with limited or at least certainly not lavish budgets that are a  lot of fun to play, and in my opinion under rated. Juniper Golf Course in Redmond, OR is a fantastic course built in 2003 for less than $3M on a rocky site.

I hope to get back for a football game or two this fall and play it. It will be a great asset for the school. Since the football time is not so great this year, during the game may be the best time to play!

[Matt_Ward]

W.H. Cosgrove, et al:

I had the pleasure in playing Palouse Ridge the other day and enjoyed what John Harbottle has done there. Frankly, I don't see the course being any better than his design w Fuzzy Zoeller at Arrowcreek with his Challenger course there in the greater Reno area.

People have commented on the hilly nature of the site but to the credit of Harbottle and his team the flow of the course works quite well.

The real weakness of the course? The greensites are fairly ordinary in a number of spots. Nonetheless, on the flip side of that would be if the greens were built with too much slope then the combo of the hilly terrain plus the greens being equal to that side of things could have made for a course a bit beyond the likes of the day-to-day people who will be playing there.

I like the start of the course with the 463-yard opener. The drive requires you play slightly uphill to a sloping left-to-right fairway. The shot needs to follow the slope of the land and for those who do the pay-off can be a real plus. The opener may be a tad too tough for many people but there's more than sufficient width to nearly all the fairways at the course.

There was comment on the 2nd hole and it is relatively weak when held against the totality of the course. The drive is again slightly uphill and you need to keep the ball out to the right of the directional marker in order to take advantage of the slope that follows from right-to-left. I hit a solid tee shot and because of the pitch came to rest about 40 yards in front of the green/ Harbottle did a fantastic job with the green because it sits in a bowl and the frontal pin placements can be really demanding because the shot must come into the hole with absolute pinpoint accuracy.

The meat of the course comes with the stretch of holes from #3 thru the 9th. In fact, the frontal side is really tougher than the back by likely no less than two shots. The downhill 3rd at 484 yards requires a well played tee shot to a sloping fairway protected by a solitary bunker on the right side. The fairway does neck in at roughly 175 yards and you must avoid the rough that pushes in from the left side. The green is one of the better ones at Palouse Ridge -- sits high above the fairway and with a back pin placement you need to avoid missing anywhere to the left. In addition, a you get a grand backdrop with the native countryside and mountains in the distant background.

Palouse Ridge is beyond the likes of Circling Raven. The demands are much more challenging -- the terrain is also a good bit tougher than what you find at the Idaho layout. I've got more to say about the course but time for zzzzz requires me to retire for now.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Matt, I have been having trouble with the photos but will say that I have not seen Harbottle's work in Nevada and Tahoe.  I have heard great reports from them. 

The weakness on #2 at PR is baqsed on two things.  1)  I hate blind tee shots early in a round.  They slow play and frankly I find them a bit unerving if not dangerous.  2) The green site, which in contrast I find weak, sits above a prking lot, the shaping is the poorest on the golf course.  The bowl around that green looks like a new operator was told to take two swipes around the green and move on.  The bowl is a consistent and unnatural spot. 

The second is followed by that wondrful vista of the third tee and the nice risk reward of the the angle formed by the scruff on the left and the bunker on the right.  Really good design.  And then as you say the course really gets moving particularly through the 5, 6 , 7 area. 

And finally with the relatively small feel of the greens (6000-6500 sq ft.) and the strategy to get into the greens, the lack of huge breaks really doesn't seem to be a problem for me.  It is afterall meant to be a championship course for the Pac 10.  Demanding driving, fast and windy should make them demanding enough. 

I look forward to seeing JHIII's work in Tahoe after hearing so many nice things.  He seems to be on a bit of a roll.

[Michael Dugger]

Blind tee shot on #2?  Sounds like Juniper all over again.

Is the 3rd a par 3?

[Matt_Ward]

Michael D:

The 3rd hole was listed in my last post as a long par-4. The 4th hole at Palouse Ridge is a par-3 -- a darn good one at that.

W.H. Cosgrove:

Yes, be sure to play the Challenger Course at Arrowcreek in Reno when the opportunity arises. Harbottle worked on similar land there and for whatever reason completely unknown to me the place has never received much ink when you see others like Genoa Lakes, Sierra Ranch, Montreux, to name just three, have received plaudits and comments from time to time.

Let me re-emphasize that having a blind shot -- whether early or late is of little consequence to me. C'mon, the 1st hole is a blind landing area and it works fine. That "blind" element adds to the sense of adventure when standing up and playing the shot. It could have been just more easier for Harbottle and crew to bulldoze the whole darn place so that your sight lines are 100% visible. That would be way too predictable.

On second reflection I see your point about the overall make-up of the second green and its surroundings. It does appear to to be overly shaped and forced for the setting. Something a bit more subdued would have blended in far better. Good point on that -- I still like the driving element when standing on the tee and looking at into the sky vista beyond the hill.

In regards to the green contours -- a bit more variety would have been helpful. I do like the gentle contours in spots -- the approach to the par-3 6th works well. I played from the tip and hit 3-iron and with the pin in the rear I was fortunate to hit the extreme right side of the green / fringe area and the ball rolled towards the hole nicely.

In other spots -- Palouse Ridge is simply pedestrian with little imagination -- this is particularly so on the back nine. I like that the hole follow the far outline of the property but Harbottle included one too many par-5 and par-3 holes. The 17th should be a par-4 and one of the par-3's could have been eliminated from the mix. The uphill 12th hole is a bear and arguably is the toughest hole on the course. What many may not realize is the effect that Harbottle has succeeded with in including uphill holes that appear at first glance to not be that uphill but are clearly going in that direction. The par-3 4th is one of them -- the par-4 8th is another.

Harbottle has provided WSU and the surrounding area with something people will play. When I was there the place was really hopping and the locals were clearly proud of the inclusion of such a course so close to campus. It is well done and worth the time and $$ to play. Those coming to the NE corner of Oregon and SE corner of WA have something to certainly seek out.

[Tom Huckaby]

I haven't played Palouse Ridge nor Arrowcreek and damn likely never will... but I am curious about Harbottle's best... have any of you played either Stevinson Ranch or Cinnabr Hills here in CA?  And if so, how do these compare?

Just curious... thanks.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Only played Stevinson -- good layout in spots but behind the likes of Challenger at Arrowcreek and Palouse Ridge. Harbottle simply flies under the radar for many but given constraints in land and budget areas from the ones I have personally played he does some really fine stuff. Anyone heading to Reno and the Pullman areas will not be disappointed with either.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - cool, thanks.  Cinnabar is arguably a little better than Stevinson, but not much.  Sounds like we in CA can lay no claim to Harbottle's best.  But the two I mentioned are each pretty darn good.  Yeah, Harbottle would have to be called underrated.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

I thought the third fairway should have been wider.  It was very narrow considering how far downhill the tee shot is and the amount of wind that is uaually in play.

I thought the fairway on the left side of #5 should have been wider as well.  It is just tiny.

I thought #6 was a great hole, one that plays a lot shorter than the yardage (I hit 6-iron from 220) despite not being really downhill that much.

#'s 9 and 18 are very similar, which I didn't really like.

#15 was a really cool hole which is driveable even from 360 yards (back tees). 

Overall I thought the course was fun but not great.  There are a few holes I dont really like and a few that are fun but could be really solid with some minor adjustments.  It's still a nice course.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Sean Leary]

Jordan,

Are you at WAZZU yet? Best of luck....

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Jordan, you're sounding like an expert. # 3 works because it is narrow.  Don't hit driver or man up and hit it further!  #5  has to be 75 yards wide.  Just don't miss it!

Huck, I've played Stevinson and only looked around Cinnabar.  Stevinson reminds me of a senior project for school with lots of examples of things that might be a good idea but they never really flowed for me. The property at Cinnabar actually reminds me of PRidge a little.  I found Palouse to be more consistent than Gold Mountain.  Some of the holes at GM seem forced into the terrain, where with the exception of my comments on #2 Palouse flows really well. 

Matt D. #1 ws not a blind hole for me   That must mean you hit your drive another thirty yards beyond where I put mine.  But then I never did find my first drive of the day. 

I look forward to Harbottle's next project, Cascadia, that is being built just east of Tacoma. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Every time I go back to Stevinson Ranch (3 times this year), I am reminded of all the little details that make it so good. It always seems to lose a little luster in my memory, only to leave me pleasantly surprised again when I return. The course truly playss fast and firm. The quality of presentation in and around the green complexes by the maintenance crew is tremendous. Cinnabar Hills is very good, but I think Stevinson, as it's maintained, is the better course despite the mediocre site that he had to work with. If Harbottle has even better work out there, that's great news for golf. I'd love to see what he could due with prime land.

On the flip side, Dairy Crek is miserable piece of horse crap. I also hear poor reviews of his "restoration work" at many of the Bay Area private clubs (e.g. Stanford, Castlewood, Marin).
He did some decent work in renovating the Monarch Bay Tony Lema course, but botched some of the argonomy (salty soils plagued the turf for years, not sure how much personal responsibilty he deserves).

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

The 3rd hole works because the longer the tee shot to get to the optimum spot is going to face a tremendous challenge tied to the narrowness of the fairway and the manner by which the solitary bunker on the right side pokes its head in the way.

Good point on the 9th and 18th holes -- both are similar and really don't differentiate themselves in any notable way.

I still see the inclusion of five par-3's and five par-5's to be a bit much since the back nine is the home for the three of each. The 17th should play as a par-4. One of the other par-3's could have been made into a short uphill par-4.

The missing ingredient in your analysis is the lack of real differentiation with the putting surfaces. They are mainly plan vanilla and a bit more spice would have been a real plus. Likely the budget was tight and prevented that.

I do agree with you on the par-3 6th hole -- it doesn't play that much downhill but the approach must come in from the right to be successful.

Give Harbottle credit in bringing forward a golf layout of quality where much of such things is rather limited. It's possible that the addition of Palouse Ridge may be the spur of other golf projects throughout the Pullman, Moscow, Lewiston area. No doubt the terrain and weather do work quite nicely together.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Matt nice comments.  Palouse was built on a tight budget.  As I remember about $8 Million outhe door. 

I look forward to going back to seeing the puting surfaces again after your comments.  WHAT A GREAT EXCUSE!

[Matt_Ward]

What impressed me about the course was its solid location so near to the campus and the wide ranging types of people playing there. Just shows how good quality golf can really bring out people.

Plus the rates are very reasonable for what you get.

Anyone driving through the Pullman / Lewiston / Clarkston areas should head there to play. Good design -- not exceptional as Jordan mentioned but a worthy play all around.

[Cory Brown]

Has anyone played the University of Idaho Golf Course?  I am sure PR will be in far better shape, but I always really enjoyed playing at U of I.  It was always firm and fast and has many opportunities to play a shot 30 yards away from your target and let it feed back down to the fairway or green.  It is very fun in the wind.  I was just wondering if PR will have any similar types of shots allowing for that kind of imagination?

[Jordan Wall]

Cos,

The third fairway is just tiny, throughout, and though it does narrow farther down at the landing area it is still too narrow in my opinion.  For the amount of wind that normally blows, and the amount of drop on that tee shot, there should definitely have been more width to that fairway.

As far as #5 goes, the first fairway is plenty wide, but the second is not at all and definitely not 75 yards wide.  It is tiny, and I think it should be wider.

I'm no expert, and I dont claim to be, but as far as I'm concerned both of those fairways should be wider.


Matt,

I think the inclusion of five par-3's and five par-5's is a great idea on such a course, so as to provide a dramatic ending to any big matches.  While 18 is a somewhat boring finishing hole (very similar to #9 as mentioned), 17 is a great hole that should bring forth a variety of different scores.  I like it as a par-5.


Cheers,
Jordan

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

Got to differ with you on one thing -- the 17th plays downhill and any tee shot of significance will leave nothing more than a short-iron for better players. The only ones challenged by the hole will be those who can't get far down the hill -- at that point the separation between the former and latter situations is so big as to cause a major spike in possibilities between the two groups.

I have no issue with five par-3's and five par-5 combo's but each of the holes needs to be rather unique -- that's not the case at Palouse Ridge and you can see the result with a back nine that is really a good two to even three shots difference betweenn the more challenging front versus the back.

Nonetheless, Palouse Ridge is a good layout and for what Harbottle delivered for the budget involved will be a worthy visit for any person in the immediate vicinity.

[Steve_Lovett]

Jordan:

Got to differ with you on one thing -- the 17th plays downhill and any tee shot of significance will leave nothing more than a short-iron for better players. The only ones challenged by the hole will be those who can't get far down the hill -- at that point the separation between the former and latter situations is so big as to cause a major spike in possibilities between the two groups.

I have no issue with five par-3's and five par-5 combo's but each of the holes needs to be rather unique -- that's not the case at Palouse Ridge and you can see the result with a back nine that is really a good two to even three shots difference betweenn the more challenging front versus the back.

Nonetheless, Palouse Ridge is a good layout and for what Harbottle delivered for the budget involved will be a worthy visit for any person in the immediate vicinity.

Matt:

As a WSU Alum, very few find themselves in the immediate vicinity of Pullman - without effort...

- Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I was fortunate to have heard about Palous Ridge and when I booked my travel plans to be in the Bend and Montana area it fitted perfectly for me to include it as mid-located layout. I was quite impressed with Harbottle before Palouse Ridge and his work there will certainly be enjoyed by people who want to play something of quality.

Those making the trek to Circling Raven need not travel any further in that distance.

[Nick Schaan]

Jordan,

Thinking of stopping in Pullman on my way back to Bend from Huntsman Springs. Care to join me for my first of I am sure many rounds at PR?

Send me an email - nschaan@dmkgolfdesign.com

[Steve_Lovett]

Steve:

I was fortunate to have heard about Palous Ridge and when I booked my travel plans to be in the Bend and Montana area it fitted perfectly for me to include it as mid-located layout. I was quite impressed with Harbottle before Palouse Ridge and his work there will certainly be enjoyed by people who want to play something of quality.

Those making the trek to Circling Raven need not travel any further in that distance.

The area has long-discussed the creation of a high-caliber golf course.  I'm very happy to hear John Harbottle has delivered it at WSU.  The geography of the Palouse is unique for golf.  I can't wait to get back to play it.

[Matt_Ward]

Have to say this - what people see with Circling Raven amazes me when I hold it against Palouse Ridge. If that layout merits national consideration then I have to wonder where Palouse Ridge will ultimately fare.

Eastern Washington has a few courses of note but Palouse Ridge is the best of the lot I've played in the area.

[Sean Leary]

Matt,

How does it compare with fave of yours Desert Canyon?

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Tough call -- you have a good memory partner because I do like the layout in Orondo. But, I have not been back there in quite some time but on memory alone I'd say Desert Canyon is the better choice -- not by much but enough. The two sides at Desert Canyon are not thatfar apart -- at Palouse Ridge the front is at least 2-3 shots tougher than the back.

No disrespect to Palouse Ridge / John Harbottle but the routing, shot challenges and overall beauty fall to the layout in Orondo -- just playing the downhill 16th (I believe) is awesome stuff with the Columbia River valley in the nearby distance.

No matter -- I'd give Desert Canyon an edge but not take one iota away from what palouse Ridge provides. Anyone traveling through the area should play both.

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