[TEPaul]

MikeC:

If and when you happen to get there see if the club knows something about exactly when White did the course and how.

[Phil_the_Author]

If I remember correctly, and I could very well be wrong here, wasn't Robert White the professional at Shawnee beginning in about 1912 for a few years? I believe he also was construction manager at a few courses for Tilly during the mid-teens.

Also, was he the Robert H. White who was one of the original founding members of Fishers Island? The reason for asking this is according to the family of Roland Oswald, an early assistant pro at FI who gave lessons to Missy Crisp later on in his life (that bit of name dropping for Mr. Paul  ), it was White who got him the job at FI.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

That would be correct about White's affiliation with Shawnee, my good man.

There have been a number of courses I've come across where there seems some evidence of both Tillinghast and White, just as later there was some crosover between Tillinghast and Willard Wilkinson.

The course I'm most intrigued by is Northampton CC, near Easton, which I've seen attributed to White, but there is also some evidence of Tillnghast.

It's another on my must-play list, because I hear it has exceptionally wild greens.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I don't really know who Robert H. White who you say was one of the founders of Fisher's Island was but I would seriously doubt it's the same Robert White, the professional and architect of this thread.

[D_Malley]

i will be up at water gap cc (formally wolf hollow) tomorrow and tuesday.  i believe it to be a robert white course.  fun place to play, and one of the best ever 19th hole!

[Thomas MacWood]

Based on his immigration papers and his military records Robert White the golf architect did not use a middle name or intitial.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mr. Malley,

It is definitely a White course design.

[wsmorrison]

"TE/Wayne
Why was Willie Campbell hired by Myopia in 1896?"

I never said he was.  I have never bothered to research anything to do with Willie Campbell and Myopia.  Please don't expect me to answer this question.  Since you won't provide Tom Paul or any of his associates any information whatsoever, (1) I don't know why you presume to think I would assist you (though I just might anyway) and even more importantly (2) I don't care to study this matter.  Reply #12 represents the extent of my interest to research the matter.

[TEPaul]

"It would seem that MacWood's protege studied this method very carefully, wouldn't you say?"


Wayne:

Yes, I would say that surely looks to be the case.

Good point in your last post, by the way. It seems like those two gentlemen just group us together in everything either one of us says about anything. It should've been crystal clear you've had almost nothing to do with Myopia and that it is not your issue at all.

I believe I understand who you're referring to as 'MacWood's protege' and frankly saying it that way is as close as I ever want to get to addressing or responding to that person again. But you're right, the two of them have surely conducted a remarkable charade, and frankly for some years now of cat and mouse tactics, distortions, deflections, the complete highlighting and stretching of trivial events and facts. It is not just totally unproductive but it's also such a waste of everyone's time and energy.

If Mr. MacWood does not want to come forward with whatever he has on Myopia I'm sure Myopia and its architectural history will survive just fine. The fact is the golf course as it was developed and as it almost entirely is now was the work of Herbert Leeds anyway.

If Mr. MacWood actually has something that others would logically think is solid and significant re Campbell designing those original holes of Myopia and he refuses to produce it only because he does not want to help me (this is actually the reason he just gave, believe it or not) then that is pretty bizarre, pretty sad and frankly pretty selfish to architecture itself and the greater understanding of it.

I think it's probably more a matter of the fact that he really doesn't have much and he knows it and he knows if he produces it all of us will know it too. I think most of us have seen this technique of his in the past of producing some bit of information that he apparently feels fairly proprietary about and then stretching its meaning and importance to and even beyond complete incredulity.

This is precisely why I'm growing fonder and fonder of the way Mr. Geoffrey Cornish treats and casts so many of these subjects he has written about over the years to do with early architects and early architecture----eg he does none of that. The way he goes about it one gets the feeling he is putting into the context of its true historical accuracy so well. Others so much less experienced in these things then he seem to always blow these things totally out of proportion and perspective historically.

[D_Malley]

phillip,
thanks for confirming that, which i thought was the case.  in the poconos i think white also designed skytop and some holes at buck hill falls.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I'm fan of Cornish as well. But I must say I'm a little surprised you put much stock in his '18 Stakes' since it is made up largely of excerpts from newspapers and magazines.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My Dearest Mr. Brauer;

On the following statement by you of this morning instant, I would like to offer some other potential explanations of why young Master Robert White (aged 18-19 in 1894-5-6-7) of St Andrews Scotland may've been hired by Myopia Hunt Club:

"You queried about Mr. White's qualifications at age 18.  I offer this, albeit it may not shed much light on the question you pose.  However, I seemingly recall that Scots were all the rage for those early clubs because there were no real experts in golf pre 1900 in America.  It may very well be that his Scottish brogue was enough to land him the job." 

You may not be aware of this, Mr. Brauer---few on here may be---but the likes of Mrs. Appleton, Mrs. Hunnewell, and a few others of their married girl-friend acquaintances of that time and place in and around the Myopia, Essex, Dedham Fox Hunt Clubs were huntresses in the extreme (they were dedicated to pretty tough and expert fox hunting) and many of them were into taking up golf at that time. But that was not the extent of some of their recreations and extra-curricular activities----Nay, not by a fairly long shot!

Just take a look at that Robert White, even in photos of him in later years. It is not hard to notice he was a very good looking guy, seemingly buff, sensual and sexual, a man with seemingly strong hands but with an "easy" touch, and then just add to that his cute little Scottish brogue. All that pretty much adds up to some serious "lady-killing", if you catch my drifto! Those ladies could be pretty heavy into their "Boy-Toys" in the off-hours their husbands were into business or some other sports recreation such as sleeping off some pretty serious hangovers in the wee to middling morning hours.

No, I have no doubt Robert White had some qualifications most on here, and certainly including Mr. MacWood from Ivory Tower, Ohio can not contemplate.

If those men who ran Myopia Hunt back then were not totally into transporting a young stud like Robbie White over here to serve as their pro/greenskeeper, I have virtually no doubt at all some of their huntress wives were into transporting him over here for more than just his pro/greenskeeper qualifications.

To the literary giant, Mr Paul.

I am in reciept of yours of this morning. I do appreciate the information you supplied.  Whilst a bit, shall we say, coarse, for polite society, it did not fail to titilate!  You may be pleased to know that your missive has increased the readership of this esteemed website by a few particpants.  Yes, the womenfolk around here now log in more often than I, and have dubbed you "the next Jane Austen."  How thrilled you must be!

As fans are wont to do, they have asked me to pass on some suggestions for your future writing. I assured them that a literary giant such as yourself has probably thought of these ideas, and many more.  But, they insist, and of course, its easier to risk giving you some lame ideas, than to anger the distaff side around me.  I hope you take no offense at these suggestions about your writing!

First, they suggest that the heroine in your next novel be named Merion C. Haverford and that the work be titled "passion in the archives".  It does have a ring to it, doesn't it?  And they also have suggested some other names for your next, steamy romance novel!  When I opined that you would most likely want to include some favorite, recurring themes of yours, like the sexual prowess of Mr. White, and the incomplete historical talents of Messers MacWood and Moriarity, they suggested the title, "Historical Boners."

Again, while a bit coarse, its a great play on words which quickly encapsulates your two main areas of interest.  Do feel free to use any and all suggestions, without compensation, or ignore same.

Ta ta for now! Keep up the good work as the girls look forward so to your next, steamy, installment.

Most Sincerely,

Jeffrey D. Brauer

[TEPaul]

TE
I'm fan of Cornish as well. But I must say I'm a little surprised you put much stock in his '18 Stakes' since it is made up largely of excerpts from newspapers and magazines.


Mr. MacWood:

The reason for that is clearly you've never had any idea what type of stock I put in old magazines and newspapers despite my explaining it to you numerous times. Consequently, that type of response of yours has become so very trite and hackneyed after all these years with not just me but so many others on here. Mr. Young's recent remark of your 'NON answer' is right on the money.

I guess some of this can be explained by the fact of what you admitted to me the other day---eg you really don't even bother to read what others say on here if it's longer than a few lines.

That's a self-admission that pretty much says it all about your participation on here, Mr. MacWood.

[DMoriarty]

Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul,

The two of you have repeatedly referred to Myopia's "records."   To what records do you refer?

You have also stated that Tom MacWood will not believe Myopia's records.   What records?

You guys aren't trying to create the false impression that Myopia's club history is the same thing as a record of events, are you?

. . . This is accroding to the club's own records. If you chose to believe they are lies or hyperbole (even though they are contemporaneous to that time), I guess that's just your good right as an "independent" researcher.

According to the club's records White was followed at Myopia as its pro/greenskeeper by John Jones who remained at Myopia in that capacity for many years.

. . . YOU assume that Myopia's own records must be wrong about the fact their hired him???

THAT is TRULY priceless!!

Since YOU can't understand what Robert White's qualifications were in 1895-97, YOU assume that Myopia's own records must be wrong about the fact their hired him???

It would seem that MacWood's protoge studied this method very carefully, wouldn't you say?

[Thomas MacWood]

Frankly, I've never been as big a fan of some of these newspaper articles as some are and how much  stock is placed on them and their accuracy. Certainly you seem to put a lot of stock in some of them particularly when they seem to support your particular thesis (when they don't you tend to discount them).

TE
Perhaps this comment slipped your mind. It is very similar to other statements you've over the last few years, when the information in an article did not suit your preconceived notion of whatever event. Based on this statement I would guess you don't much stock in the accuracy of Cornish's '19 Stakes' .

[TEPaul]

"Yes, the womenfolk around here now log in more often than I, and have dubbed you "the next Jane Austen."


My Dearest Friend:

My name is Thomas E. Paul, TEPaul to my many friends and acquaintances and even the occasional fucking scumbag on this glorious new modern contraption---GOLFCLUBATLAS.com---but you can call me "John or even Sean Austen" if you would like to.

You want some good old fashioned titillation, my friend? All you need to do for starters, in that case, is hie over to a museum like New York's Metropolitan or most in Boston that have displays of some of that remarkable clothing of the late 19th century, particularly the recreational clothing in that type of society. Pay particular attention to some of the jodhpurs worn by those remarkable huntresses. The design of them, particularly in the front, is some of the most sublimely efficient ever known to fashion ET AL.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Perhaps this comment slipped your mind."

Mr. MacWood:

Not at all. It has never slipped my mind. As I've mentioned to you numerous times on here---to me newspapers and magazine articles are primarily useful sans direct and primary documentation particularly from the source of a newspaper or magazine article subject (which is generally whence most of the best newspapers and magazine articles come from anyway as can clearly be seen on this website, particularly with what has been offered on here by the likes of Bausch and Cirba).

But as I've also said to you numerous times, I can certainly understand why you put so much stock in the validity and crebibility of old magazine and newspaper articles----eg they were basically all you've ever had to go on anyway. You do not even seem interested in direct club source material (again from which the best articles on clubs and their histories come from anyway).

I use club source documentation and material of the contemporneous variety as a mean of corroborating the accuracy of magazine and newspaper articles. You use the latter as your primary source material.

That you do that and then discount primary contemporaneous club source material as inaccurate and flawed if it does not agree with or corroborate your particular found newspaper or magazine article (however indirect it may be) is a form of ludicrous rationalization that no logical minds have heretofore ever accepted nor will they ever except it.

This is clearly why you and your protege are constantly into these everlasting cat and mouse games on this discussion forum that is so very time and energy wasting for everyone and certainly including yourselves.

[TEPaul]

" Based on this statement I would guess you don't much stock in the accuracy of Cornish's '19 Stakes' ."


Mr. MacWood:

From that remark I would have to assume you've never read Cornish's "Eighteen Stakes on a Sunday Afternoon."

If you had you would know that the vast majority of it is original opinion from numerous men on the general nature of the art and science of golf course architecture. It's is not a compendium of articles on the architectural histories of golf clubs and who did them, that's for sure, and it is not a massive listing of golf courses around the world and who worked on them and when.  For that Cornish colloborated with Ron Whitten on the remarkable Tome "The Architects of Golf". 
 
 
 

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Thank you for explaining your research methodology. I look forward some day to reading something you've written that involves this methodology. We all look forward to that day. Hopefully that day will come before too long. Afterall we aren't getting any younger. You aren't getting younger, and no one on this site is getting any younger. In fact no one in the world is getting any younger. So hopefully you will write something before we all die or the world comes to an end, whatever may come first.

[DMoriarty]

You do not even seem interested in direct club source material . . .
I use club source documentation and material of the contemporneous variety . . .
. . . primary contemporaneous club source material  . . .

Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison,


Unless I am missing something, you guys have not offered any "record"or "direct club source material" or "club source information of the contemporneous[sic] variety."   None at all.   Why?   

So your accusations that Tom MacWood has ignored Myopia's  "records," etc., are entirely empty and meaningless.   



By the way, I do find it interesting that TEPaul has dropped the use of the word "record" in his last few posts.    He mentioned the "club history" was his source in his first post, but then strated talking about "records."   So either,

1)  TEPaul and Wayne are trying to pass off another club history as a contemporary "record;" or
2)  TEPaul and Wayne are playing hide and seek with actual records.

Either way, what's the point of criticizing us for not trusting unrevealed sources?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Thank you for explaining your research methodology. I look forward some day to reading something you've written that involves this methodology. We all look forward to that day. Hopefully that day will come before too long. Afterall we aren't getting any younger. You aren't getting younger, and no one on this site is getting any younger. In fact no one in the world is getting any younger. So hopefully you will write something before we all die or the world comes to an end, whatever may come first."


Mr. MacWood:

The point is really not for me to write about all this (Ex Myopia, Merion, Oakmont, PV, NGLA, Shinnecock, etc, etc. etc. (all though I am doing one on the detailed creation story of Pine Valley)

The point, to me, is to do everything I can to see that it is all properly collected, catalogued, archived and preserved. That is why people like me and Wayne, Crosby, Disher, Wexler, D. White, Ammerman et al are working as we are as volunteers on the USGA Architecture Archive. It's too bad more don't get involved in this but it seems too many just have their own little niggling personal agendas and issues. When that is done to a comprehensive extent which is my wish and hope, I'm pretty confident it can all explain itself remarkably well and remarkably accurately, certainly to people with logical and level-headed minds and a basic understanding of the flux and flow of the history and evolution of golf course architecture.

I'll probably leave the writing to people like you and your protege who seem, in the interest of making names for yourself in this world of architecture, to want to see if you can foist some revisionist accounts on these clubs' histories to people who do not have the interest or the access to the real stuff that emanated out of these clubs and courses.

You guys can write to your hearts content about the "what-ifs". I'm more interested in things like what really was, why, when, how and by whom. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Who is writing the Myopia history?

[TEPaul]

"Who is writing the Myopia history?"


Mr. MacWood:

What do you mean? What history? Myopia has had two history books written in the course of their history, one by a man whose name I believe was Fordham and their centennial history book done by Edward Weeks in 1975.

I'm still wondering why you can claim Myopia's history book or history has flaws in it when you don't even know what it says. How do you know that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner did not lay out that course in the spring of 1894 as Myopia's record from their Secretary at that time, S. Dacre Bush, said in the Myopia Club record (Board meeting minutes) that they did precisely that? Is this another example in your opinion that members of a club in the process of trying to accomplish something were lying to each other, even in the written recording of their proceedings and meetings? How can anyone even think such a ridiculous thing with a rational mind or a straight face? Is this another example of Tom Macwood concluding that if he is not aware of something whatever is recorded must be flawed? Unbelievable really!

[DMoriarty]

"Who is writing the Myopia history?"


Mr. MacWood:

What do you mean? What history? Myopia has had two history books written in the course of their history, one by a man whose name I believe was Fordham and their centennial history book done by Edward Weeks in 1975.

I'm still wondering why you can claim Myopia's history book or history has flaws in it when you don't even know what it says. How do you know that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner did not lay out that course in the spring of 1894 as Myopia's record from their Secretary at that time, S. Dacre Bush, said in the Myopia Club record (Board meeting minutes) that they did precisely that? Is this another example in your opinion that members of a club in the process of trying to accomplish something were lying to each other, even in the written recording of their proceedings and meetings? How can anyone even think such a ridiculous thing with a rational mind or a straight face? Is this another example of Tom Macwood concluding that if he is not aware of something whatever is recorded must be flawed? Unbelievable really!

Except that MacWood has done no such thing.   As I suspected this entire business about Robert White was a big set-up, trying to get MacWood to take a position on documents you are concealing from him, so you could then try to ridicule him.  That he didn't take your bait didn't stop you, you ridicule him anyway.  But your transparent only serves to further reveal your pettiness. 

It was obvious to me that you were trying to set us up from the moment you first started playing polite.   Pathetic.   For as much as you guys plot and scheme, you sure are not very good at it.

 Why is it that you only now finally revealed your source, after two pages?   Pathetic. Why didn't you reveal the source when repeatedly asked?   Pathetic.  Nothing but juvenile games to try and gain back some dignity.   For you two, this is all about your bruised egos, and has nothing to do with history or golf course architecture.  Completely pathetic.

I thought Myopia valued their privacy??   Do you think that they appreciate you trying to use their vaunted history as a petty rhetorical sword in your never ending quest to disparage MacWood and me?  Would Myopia behave in such a manner?   If not, then why are you abusing their trust and privacy by so behaving? 

Are you guys really so vindictiive that you will screw up the history of a second great club.   First Merion, now Myopia. Who's next?   If I was at these clubs I'd be screening my calls.

Maybe someone needs to contact Myopia and fill them in.   

[TEPaul]

I think it's probably safe to say, it's not a good thing at all to cut really big farts on this website.

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