[Thomas MacWood]

Robert White has always been somewhat of mysterious firgure who I'd like to know more about. It sounds like TE Paul and Mike Cirba know quite bit about him, which is blessing for all of us.

The little I know, he migrated to the US in 1894 at the age 18 (he may have been 17 but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). To my knowledge he was not professional golfer at that time.  His father was an Englishman and a blacksmith who moved to St. Andrews at some point.

TE & Mike
Was Robert the pro at Myopia in 1895 or was he hired in some other capacity; what were his qualifications in 1895?

[Bradley Anderson]

This doesn't establish Robert White as a great architect but:

White did not come to America to be a golf guru. His trip here was to study agronomy. Why he ended up in Massachusetts is not known to me, but I do know that Massachusetts had the first really good state funded agronomy program in the country, prompted by the gypsy fly moth epidemic, and that might explain how he ended up there.

According to Cornish and Whitten, Robert White was the Pro-Superintendent at Myopia during at least part of the time that Leeds was building greens and bunkers and chocolate drop mounds. Now Leeds may have been very hands on with overseeing all of that work, but there is no doubt that White would have had some participatory or even supervisory role in parts of that project. That makes White a very interesting figure in my book.

What I am curious to know is if White carried some of the bunkering concepts from Myopia to his later work as an independent architect.

In 1902 White moved to Ravisloe as the Pro-Superintendent and I have always wondered if it was White who should be credited for the extensive bunkering that was at Ravisloe. I came across an old magazine article with a picture of a bunker at Ravisloe that was credited to White but nothing like some of the bunkering at Myopia. However that was just one picture. One wonders if he developed his own style or if he built a business on the strength and principles of what his first benefactor had developed.

White went on to be the first President of the PGA in 1916, and according to Cornish and Whitten he was a pioneer of scientific turfgrass management. He was also a golf businessman. He is definitely a great figure in golf, but I don't know if he was a great architect.

[TEPaul]

Thanks for that Bradley; sorry, I mean Mr. Anderson.

Perhaps, the most important thing to try to establish with Robert White, is, if and when he became an "independent" golf course architect or if, in fact, he ever actually did that. It seems he was one of those transitional figures in the history of American professional architecture (coming to this country so early--1894) who was always basically connected to a golf club as its professional or pro/greenkeeper, perhaps even to the end. On the other hand, I certainly can't document that at this point. If he did become an independent architect or exclusively just a golf architect (without a club pro job simultaneously) at some point (he was one of the founders of the ASGCA in 1947, but on the other hand he was also a founder of the PGA in the teens---eg indicating he was closely connected to the club professional structure) it seemingly does not appear he had enough golf architectural work to sustain himself in just that capacity.

It seems Robert White was the pro/greenskeeper at Myopia for a time between 1895 and 1897 (source--the Myopia club history by member and Atlantic Monthly editor, Edward Weeks). My sense is in that time frame he would logically have been involved with the golf committee consisting of club members Merrill, Appleton, Bush and Parker with the improvement of the original holes of 1894 by Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, and of course with Leeds when he apparently assumed control of the architecture of the course from 1896 on. From 1897 and on for many years the pro/greenskeeper of Myopia was a man notable to the club and the course----the jovial John Jones.

My own experience with Robert White architecture involves only Berkleigh in Pa which I would describe as a far above average "country" course and certainly Longue Vue in Pittsburgh which truly fascinated me when I came to know it, even if, at that time, I did not realize Robert White was apparently its architect.

 

[Thomas MacWood]

I've read C&W (like everyone else on this site) and I'm affraid it doesn't shed much light on White's early years. The information is very vague.

Robert White arived in the US in 1894, and was 18 or 19 years old in 1895 when Myopia alledgedly hired him. What were his quailifications when he came to Myopia, and what position was hired for? Did he leave Myopia when Campbell was hired as pro/greenkeeper in 1896; if so where did he go?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Robert White came to Myopia between the years 1895 and 1897 as the club's pro/greenskeeper. This is accroding to the club's own records. If you chose to believe they are lies or hyperbole (even though they are contemporaneous to that time), I guess that's just your good right as an "independent" researcher.

According to the club's records White was followed at Myopia as its pro/greenskeeper by John Jones who remained at Myopia in that capacity for many years.

I do not know where White went following his brief time at Myopia. He may've gone to the midwest.

As to what his qualifications were in 1895, apparently Myopia felt they were as a club professional and greenskeeper, otherwise it's hard to imagine why they hired him to be that for them.

[DMoriarty]

Mr. MacWood:

Robert White came to Myopia between the years 1895 and 1897 as the club's pro/greenskeeper. This is accroding to the club's own records. If you chose to believe they are lies or hyperbole (even though they are contemporaneous to that time), I guess that's just your good right as an "independent" researcher.

According to the club's records White was followed at Myopia as its pro/greenskeeper by John Jones who remained at Myopia in that capacity for many years.

You refer to "the clubs own records."   To what records to you refer?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

It is true that C&W does not shed much light on the subject of Robert White but the point is C&W sheds more light on him than any other source extant. Would you not agree? Otherwise, where is more comprehensive source material on White and why are neither you nor anyone else finding it?

I've just been reading through Geoffrey Cornish's book "Eighteen Stakes on a Sunday Afternoon" which is primarily a quotation laden chronicle of this entire early era and beyond.

The book and the way Cornish treats these subjects just reconfirms for me the man's extremely competent and level-headed way of treating this entire history and the protagonists in it. More than ever I believe Mr. Cornish has a certain sense and expertise in truly understanding the way things were and the various people involved in it thoughout. In my opinion, the man just has an inherent "sense" of the history and ethos of all of this, and I suppose that's why he is considered to be such an august factor in the history of golf course architecture. Perhaps it has something to do with his age and the vast amount of time he has spent with the history of golf course architecture in his long and distinguished career in it---particularly studying it and teaching it. In my opinion, it's a damn shame Geoffrey Cornish is not on GOLFCLUBLATLAS.com. If he were I believe he would bring some real level-headedness in an historic context to these subjects and discussions that this site has always dearly needed.

What I like so much about him is I feel he tends to steer clear of both underplaying but particuarly overplaying what those times and the people involved in them were. It seems to me some on here try to overplay the importance of certain events and the people from that time. This does not do this age and the people from it historical justice, in my opinion.

At this point, it seems like Robert White, for various reasons, may've been what some refer to as a "second tier" architect in the broad scope of American golf architecture. On the other hand, perhaps he was more than that talent-wise with just an inability to show it for whatever the reasons. I would point to Longue Vue as an indication White may've had "The Right Stuff."

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
We've already established you club history is flawed, and I'm afraid C&W's info on White/Mypoia may have come from the author Edward Weeks as well - he is listed in the acknowledgments.

Does it make any sense that Myopia would hire an 18 or 19 years old, with no apparent qualifications, to be their professional? Especially when you have seasoned heavyweights like Joe Lloyd and Willie Campbell at sister clubs of Essex and TCC. And why would Myopia hire Willie Campbell in 1896?

Are you sure White was a pro/greenkeeper at Myopia?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

You have offered nothing at all to establish that Myopia's history is flawed when it comes to Robert White or anything else to do with the club or its course.

I am also not sure why it is that you constantly and automatically assume or even conclude that Robert White had no qualifications as a pro or greenskeeper when he came to Myopia.

Perhaps the time has finally come for you to consider that simply because you are not aware of something that it is not the truth and that it could not have happened as reported by a club. I hope this website is beginning to understand that some event in history does not need to be viewed as flawed or untrue unless or until it finally becomes endorsed by Tom MacWood.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
What were his qualification in 1895?

If were the pro/greenkeeper at Myopia from 1895 to 1897 I would think he would be a pretty hot commodity...were did he go in 1897?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Where did White go following his stay at Myopia? For my answer to that try reading post #4 again.


"TE
What were his qualification in 1895?"

Well, Mr. MacWood, if Myopia hired him at some point between 1895 and 1897 as their pro/greenskeeper, as the club records claim they did, what do you suppose they thought his qualifications were?

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
We don't know what his qualifications were or if he had any...that seems odd to me. I don't understand why Myopia would hire a 18 or 19 year old mystery man to be their pro, when TCC and Essex County had hired seasoned professionals like Campbell and Lloyd. It seems even less logical when you consider Myopia hired Campbell in 1896, and another seasoned pro John Jones a couple of years later, not to mention experienced men like Donald Ross and Alex Findlay being hired at nearby clubs during that same period.

Why was Willie Campbell hired by Myopia in 1896?

[wsmorrison]

In a search of Golf Illustrated, American Golfer, the USGA Annual Bulletin and other sources, complicated by the fact that Robert White is a common name, some activities to consider include:

1909 USGA Bulletin cites a Robert White, of Ravisloe CC, the President of PG Manufacturing Company, a maker of golf clubs and supplies.

Alec Bauer's 1913 book, Hazards, mentions White and William Watson's work at Ravisloe CC

There were a number of articles by Robert White in American Golfer and Golf Illustrated, many discussing greenkeeping issues including:

Jan 1913:  Correcting a Sever Case of Acidity
Mar 1913:  Watering Greens
Feb 1914:  Moving from Ravisloe to Shawnee as Greenkeeper
Aug 1918:  Pres of PGA

Photo with Herbert Strong



Sep 1918:  North Shore CC:  Greens, Summer Troubles, Crab Grass, Grubs and Fungus
Nov 1918:  Top Dressing and Compost Heap
Apr 1919:  Supervised Travis changes to Columbia CC
1922:  Pro at Wykagyl CC
July 1924:  Planning and constructing of Wolf Hollow CC
Oct 1925:  Course Listing:  Echo Lake CC, Longue Vue C, Greenbrook CC, Manasquan River GC, Wolf Hollow CC, Shorehaven CC
1925:  Pro at Connaught GC
1926:  Greenkeeper at St. Andrews GC
Dec 1928:  1st 18 hole (grass greens) course in Myrtle Beach:  Ocean Forest CC
1931:  Resident Secretary at Ocean Forest CC
1932:  GCA office in Mt. Vernon, NY

[TEPaul]

"TE
We don't know what his qualifications were or if he had any...that seems odd to me. I don't understand why Myopia would hire a 18 or 19 year old mystery man to be their pro, when TCC and Essex County had hired seasoned professionals like Campbell and Lloyd."


Mr. MacWood:

How in the hell many times do I need to go over this very same thing with you?

"WE" do not know what his qualifications were??? A "mystery man??" What does that mean? Who is "WE"? Is it you and me and others on this website in 2008??

What difference does that make? The fact that Myopia's own records state that MYOPIA HUNT CLUB hired the man to be their pro/greenskeeper in and around the years 1895-1897 must mean that THEY (back in 1895-97) felt he was qualified to act for them in that capacity otherwise why do you suppose they hired him?

If you continue to conclude that simply because YOU don't understand something or aren't aware of it that it couldn't have happened and for a valid reason back then, I really am not interested in debating the point with you. If that's the way you view history then I suppose it is of little wonder why you and I don't agree on so much about it.

Since YOU can't understand what Robert White's qualifications were in 1895-97, YOU assume that Myopia's own records must be wrong about the fact their hired him???

THAT is TRULY priceless!!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mr. MacWood,

Greetings from Texas and Good morning to those in Ohio! I will be visiting the Buckeye state this week, and traveling north to the Detroit area to watch a signifigant golf competition.  I look forward to that trip.

You queried about Mr. White's qualifications at age 18.  I offer this, albeit it may not shed much light on the question you pose.  However, I seemingly recall that Scots were all the rage for those early clubs because there were no real experts in golf pre 1900 in America.  It may very well be that his Scottish brogue was enough to land him the job.  

Even when Donald Ross came over, what were his real qualifications?  He had been an assistant clubmaker, no?  Someone of importance knew him, suggested he come to America, and hired him.  Why could it not be the same for Mr. White?

For better historical speculation and research,

Jeffrey D. Brauer

[TEPaul]

Wayno:

Thanks for that photo. It underscores my sentiments about White from the headshot of him in C&W. It may be a small point but both the way the man is dressed as well as a sense of his physiognomy gives me the impression that Robert White certainly appeared to be a man who may've generated respect in the right places for the professions he was in over here.

[wsmorrison]

Since YOU can't understand what Robert White's qualifications were in 1895-97, YOU assume that Myopia's own records must be wrong about the fact their hired him???

It would seem that MacWood's protoge studied this method very carefully, wouldn't you say?

[TEPaul]

My Dearest Mr. Brauer;

On the following statement by you of this morning instant, I would like to offer some other potential explanations of why young Master Robert White (aged 18-19 in 1894-5-6-7) of St Andrews Scotland may've been hired by Myopia Hunt Club:

"You queried about Mr. White's qualifications at age 18.  I offer this, albeit it may not shed much light on the question you pose.  However, I seemingly recall that Scots were all the rage for those early clubs because there were no real experts in golf pre 1900 in America.  It may very well be that his Scottish brogue was enough to land him the job." 

You may not be aware of this, Mr. Brauer---few on here may be---but the likes of Mrs. Appleton, Mrs. Hunnewell, and a few others of their married girl-friend acquaintances of that time and place in and around the Myopia, Essex, Dedham Fox Hunt Clubs were huntresses in the extreme (they were dedicated to pretty tough and expert fox hunting) and many of them were into taking up golf at that time. But that was not the extent of some of their recreations and extra-curricular activities----Nay, not by a fairly long shot!

Just take a look at that Robert White, even in photos of him in later years. It is not hard to notice he was a very good looking guy, seemingly buff, sensual and sexual, a man with seemingly strong hands but with an "easy" touch, and then just add to that his cute little Scottish brogue. All that pretty much adds up to some serious "lady-killing", if you catch my drifto! Those ladies could be pretty heavy into their "Boy-Toys" in the off-hours their husbands were into business or some other sports recreation such as sleeping off some pretty serious hangovers in the wee to middling morning hours.

No, I have no doubt Robert White had some qualifications most on here, and certainly including Mr. MacWood from Ivory Tower, Ohio can not contemplate.

If those men who ran Myopia Hunt back then were not totally into transporting a young stud like Robbie White over here to serve as their pro/greenskeeper, I have virtually no doubt at all some of their huntress wives were into transporting him over here for more than just his pro/greenskeeper qualifications.

[Thomas MacWood]

Jeff
Donald Ross had been the professional at Dornoch for seven seasons (1893-1899) when he came over. He was 27 years old. Not only was he experienced at greenkeeping and clubmaking, he was an accomplished golfer.

White came to the US in 1894. He was 17 or 18 years old, with no apparent qualifications - at least none that anyone can find.

In my view trying to compare White in 1895 (when he was apparently hired by Myopia) to Ross, Campbell or Lloyd is ludicrous.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE/Wayne
Why was Willie Campbell hired by Myopia in 1896?

[TEPaul]

"TE/Wayne
Why was Willie Campbell hired by Myopia in 1896?"


My Goodness! Is it possible, at this point, Mr. MacWood, that you are still actually unaware that I do not know (nor apparently does Myopia) that he actually was hired as their exclusive club professional?

I think, for about the tenth time, you should understand that we all would like to see some real significant evidence of that. Since this is your claim, is it possible that some evidence produced by you of this is somewhere in our future?

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Perhaps you can find the answer in the club history.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Let me ask you something, since these post exchanges of this morning are becoming quite confusing.

Is it possible that you actually consider the fact that you do not know what White's qualifications were in 1895-97 to be the same thing as him actually having none?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Perhaps you can find the answer in the club history."


The answer to WHAT, Mr. MacWood?   

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been hoping to play Manasquan River for some time now.   I understand from those who have been there that it is one of White's better courses on some very pretty terrain.

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