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TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2008, 10:43:36 PM »
"TE
The Myopia's history has holes (no pun intended). As I told you before you'd be better off dumping it and starting from scratch."

Tom:

Really? What are the holes in Myopia's history? Would you care to point some of them out to me in detail?  ;)

You think Edward Weeks' entire architectural history section in his book on Myopia's history should be dumped do you and the club should start from scratch? Is that because you found an article in an old Boston Globe that mentions Willie Campbell?   ???  WOW.

Do you think Merion's and Pine Valley's entire architectural history should be dumped too?

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2008, 10:53:19 PM »
My God, I just noticed about a page of posts in blue all in a stream from, ah, well you know. I don't believe I'd want to even consider reading them.

Ran and Ben, don't you think this has become a tad frightening? Would you care to consider maybe doing something about it?

Just a thought.

God only knows why this thread turned into something like this. I really do want to know as much as I can about the likes of Barker and Campbell, particularly Campbell's time in and around Boston and a couple of significant clubs. Maybe I should have made it on the likes of Willie Tucker and Willie Dunn or something instead of Barker and Campbell. Or maybe even on Robert White since the club's history does mention him as being at Myopia in the 1890s. I don't really understand why my thread on them turned into something like this and why it was perceived as an attack on MacWood or Moriarty. I would just like to know as much as possible on some architects like Barker and Campbell, that's all, and a thread on them on here just seemed like a reasonable idea. Apparently not.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 10:59:50 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2008, 02:03:36 AM »
Tom Paul,

That seemingly endless stream of blue posts is just a portion of what you have posted about H.H. Barker.   I did a simple search and cut and pasted.  Only problem was that there is a 20,000 character limit per post, so I had to use 4 posts! 

So now you know how we feel.  All those words, and I don't think you said a single thing novel and substantive about the guy. 

____________________________


As for my comments on Archives committee, as I said in the other thread, of course it is my business and the business of this website.   We all have an interest in how the story of golf course architecture in America is told, and frankly, I have serious concerns about what the USGA is doing with the project.   It has the potential to be a very valuable resource, and I have an interest in speaking out when the USGA appears to be shooting itself in the foot.

I think the problem may be that I know a bit too much about the kind of information you and Wayne had at your fingertips, and I know what you did with it and didn't do with it.   

But I have obviously hit a nerve, and will cool it for a while regarding the Archives, at least on the website.   I too feel bad for the others involved, for a variety of reasons.   Perhaps I need to put my concerns in writing and forward them to Rand Jerris and the USGA, although I am sure they must realize most of what I would have to say.

And by the way Tom, you and Wayne have repeatedly gone after other aspects of my life that have nothing to do with this website. 





David:

I'm going to try to ask you really nicely to stop with this constant and pretty much daily criticism of the USGA with me on that architecture archive or your daily criticism of me being on it. I realize the dynamics on this website can get pretty rough and tough sometimes by why don't we try to contain our histionics on this website to only the matters of this website, period, OK?

Some of us have put a lot of time and effort into that USGA Architecture Archive and it really has nothing to do with GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and its dynamics. That is something else altogether in my life and in the lives of others, some of which are on here, and there really is no reason at all for you to go after that.

How would you like someone on here to go after other aspects of your life for the things that go on with you on this website?

You need to stop saying what you did there for about the twentieth time---you really do.

My God, I just noticed about a page of posts in blue all in a stream from, ah, well you know. I don't believe I'd want to even consider reading them.

Ran and Ben, don't you think this has become a tad frightening? Would you care to consider maybe doing something about it?

Just a thought.

God only knows why this thread turned into something like this. I really do want to know as much as I can about the likes of Barker and Campbell, particularly Campbell's time in and around Boston and a couple of significant clubs. Maybe I should have made it on the likes of Willie Tucker and Willie Dunn or something instead of Barker and Campbell. Or maybe even on Robert White since the club's history does mention him as being at Myopia in the 1890s. I don't really understand why my thread on them turned into something like this and why it was perceived as an attack on MacWood or Moriarty. I would just like to know as much as possible on some architects like Barker and Campbell, that's all, and a thread on them on here just seemed like a reasonable idea. Apparently not.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 02:05:42 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2008, 09:27:43 AM »
Willie Campbell laid out the first 9 hole course for the Merion Cricket Club in Haverford in 1896.  Golf was played by Cricket Club members as early as 1895 on a more rudimentary layout. 

I apologize for concealing the fact until now.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2008, 09:34:10 AM »
Willie Campbell laid out the first 9 hole course for the Merion Cricket Club in Haverford in 1896.  Golf was played by Cricket Club members as early as 1895 on a more rudimentary layout. 

I apologize for concealing the fact until now.  ;)

Wayne,

Stop your concealing, damnit.  You knew all along that Willie Campbell (not of Boston fame) designed nine holes at Merion in the 1890s and didn't reveal that til today!?!?   :o :o ;)

You're worse than Jeb Magruder, HR Haldemann and John Erlichman combined!  ;)  ;D

I want you to tell us EVERYTHING YOU KNOW on EVERY SUBJECT....RIGHT NOW!!!   >:( ;D

There...that feels better.  ;)  ;D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 09:35:51 AM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2008, 11:11:22 AM »
"So now you know how we feel.  All those words, and I don't think you said a single thing novel and substantive about the guy."





Well then, perhaps that is why I made this particular thread---eg I would like to know more about Barker and particularly Campbell for various reasons to do with a club or two.

It may be a good thing if you'd consider that and instead of spending hours tracking the back pages to show what I don't know about him, you might consider explaining what you or others DO KNOW about him, and try to do it a bit more satisfactorily than you have in the past (just stating in an essay that Barker in 1910 was the second best architecture in America, amateur or professional, behind C.B. Macdonald, without explaining better than you did as to why is total bullshit and some on here just don't stand for crap like that). 

MacWood and maybe you have put some information about Barker on here and MacWood made a mention of Campbell and Myopia without backing it up. The info put on here about both was clearly not very satisfactory in the minds of some on here and when they posted about that it immediately devolved into another dispute over personal attacks from you.

The last thing you said to me on Campbell and Barker is: "Do your own research you pathetic and pompous jerk."

David Moriarty, if that's the way you feel then why don't you just stay off this thread so I can see if some others can be helpful?

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:24:23 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2008, 11:33:45 AM »
"And by the way Tom, you and Wayne have repeatedly gone after other aspects of my life that have nothing to do with this website."

David:

We've done nothing of the kind, nothing, zero. I don't know a thing about any other aspects of your life (except that you just have to be paranoid and completely self-consumed) and I don't ever want to know. After a remark like that you may rest assured that neither of us will have a thing to say to you on here or anywhere else about anything. In my opinion, you have become dangerous and unnecessarily destructive to things we do apart from here. If you have some problem with the USGA or its archive than why don't you try and get involved with it as we have over the last five years? Try giving back some instead of spending all your time trying to destroy what others do and care about including the USGA. You just may be the biggest and most outrageous overall unproductive "complainer" I have ever seen. A number of pretty significant people see that and what goes on with you on here and encouraged me to simply avoid you altogether. Their advice is good advice and I'm going to take it. Good luck to you----you need a ton of it at this point. 

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:39:40 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2008, 11:39:18 AM »
For what its worth, I was reading Cornish's "18 Stakes on a Sunday Afternoon" last night, which is a compendium of golf writings over the years, and he didn't see fit to mention Barker.  Didn't check for Campbell.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2008, 11:46:19 AM »
JeffB:

I'm sorry but with Tom MacWood on here Cornish just doesn't work. I suppose he thinks he knows far more than Mr Cornish ever did about architecture and architects and that others on here ought to as well. Perhaps Tom MacW will suggest that Geoffrey Cornish at app. ninety five years old should just scrap everything he's ever written on architecture and architects and start again from scratch. This is his recommendation for Myopia Golf Club and their collected architectural history. If I ever use any reference from C&W he jokes about it. That has been going on for years. To me that attitude lapped arrogance years ago and is now somewhere in the realm of funny or funnier or dumb or dumber.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2008, 11:48:34 AM »
"TE
The Myopia's history has holes (no pun intended). As I told you before you'd be better off dumping it and starting from scratch."




Tom MacWood:

Really? What are the holes in Myopia's history? Would you care to point some of them out to me in detail? Perhaps you may want to explain what Myopia's history book says about its architectural history FIRST (in this case something OTHER than what I provided you from it last week) BEFORE you explain what the "holes" in it are. You said you read it some years ago, but frankly I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps you may want to try just explaining what the Myopia Weeks history book looks like---eg there is something quite distinctive about it. If you can't even do that I would seriously doubt you've ever seen it.

If you are only referring to the fact the Weeks history book does not mention Willie Campbell (according to me) that may be explained by the fact the club believes the first nine holes were laid out by club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner. I will be checking the club minutes if they are extant to see if this was mentioned back then via the board of what was at that time a hunt and polo club. What was mentioned is Appleton (whose family had a private estate course laid out the year before) explained to the board the work they were to do in that vein in 1894 at Myopia would cost the club approximately fifty dollars.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 12:00:25 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2008, 11:59:28 AM »
TePaul,

I was merely consulting as many sources as possible to try to be helpful in this discussion.

Cornish wrote this book in 1996, I think (its still at home on my bed, as I fell asleep reading it) so I can't say for sure.  I have seen him since then, and he wasn't "losing it" as far as I could tell.  I think he knew what he was writing. (or more accurately, collecting as important to the history of gca.

Hey, I have no problem with Tom Mac casting a critical eye towards the CW. I don't think they do either.  While their original volume is pretty accurate, they readily admit there are some mistakes in each volume.  I think they feel, like Tom Mac, that history is never fully written, as more and more documents can come to light, changing long held perceptions.

And, I don't recall Tom calling them Dufus' or anything like that.  Its just part of his nature to question everything.  Like it or not, the world needs people like that.  And, they aren't going away, even if they post stuff we don't happen to like.

I don't think your real beef with Tom stems from his researching documents. I suppose it comes from the conclusions he has drawn.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2008, 12:05:34 PM »
Jeff:

Thanks for checking. I have that "18 stakes" book by Cornish and I'll check for Campbell. Cornish is from Boston and definitely familiar with the courses around there (we know he did some work at TCC). If he said in "18 stakes" about Campbell the same thing he did in "The Architects of Golf" I guess the next question should be if Campbell did not get much respect back then, what are some of the reasons for that.

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2008, 12:28:57 PM »
"Hey, I have no problem with Tom Mac casting a critical eye towards the CW. I don't think they do either.  While their original volume is pretty accurate, they readily admit there are some mistakes in each volume.  I think they feel, like Tom Mac, that history is never fully written, as more and more documents can come to light, changing long held perceptions.

And, I don't recall Tom calling them Dufus' or anything like that.  Its just part of his nature to question everything.  Like it or not, the world needs people like that.  And, they aren't going away, even if they post stuff we don't happen to like.

I don't think your real beef with Tom stems from his researching documents. I suppose it comes from the conclusions he has drawn."



Jeffrey D. Brauer, Esq:

You're right, my beef with MacWood and the beef of a few others on here with him is not about his researching ability. He does come up with some interesting stuff (who wouldn't if they lived in the same town and had access to Mike Hurzden's library? It's awesome, I've been there), it's the conclusions he's drawn, for sure. This is the meat of what a lot of the discussion on here should be about but the problem is he seems to treat any questions and challenges to his conclusions from any of us with alternately almost total deflection or supecilious arrogance. I am certainly not the only one on here who's been saying that and thinking that for years now.

No, as far as I know he has not called Mr Cornish a duffus; he's called me a duffus about fifty times if and when I refer to the C&W book "The Architects of Golf."

You are also very right that C&W's "Architects of Golf" does have a number of mistakes and misinterpretations in it but if one seriously considers what they actually did to compile that amazing TOME back then it is truly remarkable and in ToTo must be considered a research effort that blows a Tom MacWood type researcher away by a factor of about a hundred.

A few years ago I had about an hour's conversation with Geoff Cornish about exactly how he and Whitten went about collecting most of their information and he said the primary sources were the clubs of course and that some clubs are probably somewhat confused about their architectural histories for numerous reasons while other clubs aren't so much so.

Geoffrey Cornish is clearly a bright, logical and measured man on the subject of golf and architecture and its history and I seriously doubt he would ever say or even think something as bullshit ridiculous as Tom MacWood just did on this thread by suggesting a club like Myopia should dump their entire Weeks history book and start from scratch. A person who says something like that seriously should neither be taken seriously nor given any respect at all on this subject of golf architecture history.



PS:

Here's some trivia for you and the ASGCA. Mr. Cornish told me the person who was responsible for encouraging him to take on a project like "The Architects of Golf" tome was Philadelphia architect William Gordon.

wsmorrison

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2008, 12:44:28 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I'm not sure, but I think the Willie Campbell who was working in Boston came down to Philadelphia in 1895 or so to work on the first nine holer for Torresdale or Frankford (I forget) so maybe he was the one who worked on the first 9 holer for Merion.  I assumed he was until you cast doubt. 

Mike_Cirba

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2008, 01:19:20 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I'm not sure, but I think the Willie Campbell who was working in Boston came down to Philadelphia in 1895 or so to work on the first nine holer for Torresdale or Frankford (I forget) so maybe he was the one who worked on the first 9 holer for Merion.  I assumed he was until you cast doubt. 


Wayne,

Tom MacWood stated earlier in this thread that the Boston Willie Campbell is not the same as the Philly Willie Campbell who did the original Moorestown course, the first nine at HVGC, the first nine at Frankford, and the nine holer at Merion.

I'm not sure but I think his contention is that some of the dates of service/employment collide.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2008, 01:30:15 PM »
Willie Campbell laid out the first 9 hole course for the Merion Cricket Club in Haverford in 1896.  Golf was played by Cricket Club members as early as 1895 on a more rudimentary layout. 

I apologize for concealing the fact until now.  ;)

While studying the history of the second course, I've stumbled across a few interesting tidbits about the first Merion course .  But then I am sure you think you already know the full story about what happened there.   So for now I won't waste your time or mine going into them.


_________________________________________________

Tom Paul,

It took me about 30 seconds to pull up your posts about Barker.  It took a few minutes to cut and past and post them only because there were so many I had to put them into four separate windows.   After about five minutes of this I quit.  Otherwise I'd probably still be cutting and pasting.

Pretty funny that your reaction when seeing your own posts was to question what kind a lunatic would go on and on like that.   Don't you think? 

"So now you know how we feel.  All those words, and I don't think you said a single thing novel and substantive about the guy."

Well then, perhaps that is why I made this particular thread---eg I would like to know more about Barker and particularly Campbell for various reasons to do with a club or two.

It may be a good thing if you'd consider that and instead of spending hours tracking the back pages to show what I don't know about him, you might consider explaining what you or others DO KNOW about him, and try to do it a bit more satisfactorily than you have in the past (just stating in an essay that Barker in 1910 was the second best architecture in America, amateur or professional, behind C.B. Macdonald, without explaining better than you did as to why is total bullshit and some on here just don't stand for crap like that). 

MacWood and maybe you have put some information about Barker on here and MacWood made a mention of Campbell and Myopia without backing it up. The info put on here about both was clearly not very satisfactory in the minds of some on here and when they posted about that it immediately devolved into another dispute over personal attacks from you.

The last thing you said to me on Campbell and Barker is: "Do your own research you pathetic and pompous jerk."

David Moriarty, if that's the way you feel then why don't you just stay off this thread so I can see if some others can be helpful?

Because you have been stalking both of us from thread to thread for weeks with your pointed and unsubstantiated attempts to prove that Barker was not a significant figure and now you appear to be doing similarly regarding Campbell,  and I am sick of you going on and on when you have nothing to offer. 

Also, I have grown tired of you attacking and ridiculing us while at the same time demanding that we do your research for you.   I do not doubt that you are curious because of "various reasons relating to a club or two" but perhaps you should have kept that in mind before endlessly slamming us.   Plus, according to you, your "various reasons relating to a club or two" have nothing to do with this website, so why come to us to address them.    If we are a source of information for your USGA Archives, then surely you understand why we are concerned with how it is being put together.   

As I said before your trip, if you really are concerned with these clubs learning about what really happened in their early years, you should put them in contact with MacWood and then try your best to stay well away from the process.    Isn't it obvious that this would be what is best for the clubs and golf course design?    But your ego will not allow for it.   You need the limelight.   So as far as I am concerned you are on your own.   

Good Luck with that.

_________________________________________________________________________


"And by the way Tom, you and Wayne have repeatedly gone after other aspects of my life that have nothing to do with this website."

David:

We've done nothing of the kind, nothing, zero. I don't know a thing about any other aspects of your life (except that you just have to be paranoid and completely self-consumed) and I don't ever want to know.


While it is true that you (plural) know absolutely nothing about me off this website, you are delusional if you think the two of you have never come after me regarding matters that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.    You two never let a little thing like actual knowledge get in the way of the outrageous claims you have made about me and others.   

Quote
After a remark like that you may rest assured that neither of us will have a thing to say to you on here or anywhere else about anything.

I keep hoping and waiting for this, but as much as you two claim this will be the case, you always crush my expectations.   Please, I beg you, have nothing to do with me. 

Quote
In my opinion, you have become dangerous and unnecessarily destructive to things we do apart from here. If you have some problem with the USGA or its archive than why don't you try and get involved with it as we have over the last five years? Try giving back some instead of spending all your time trying to destroy what others do and care about including the USGA.

I offer to cool it on the USGA issue and this is your response?  Writing a letter to Rand Jerris about my concerns would be getting involved.   Expressing my views on here for everyone to see is getting involved.    Saying what everyone else is thinking but are afraid to say is getting involved.    Beyond that I don't want anything to do with it;  I need to trust those with whom I work and you and Wayne have proven yourselves completely untrustworthy.    So with you involved, count me out.   

Plus, I have tried to give something back to golf.  It is posted in the IMO Section for all interested to see and read.  Secretly passing my contribution around like a note in junior high study hall would not have been good for golf.

Quote
You just may be the biggest and most outrageous overall unproductive "complainer" I have ever seen. A number of pretty significant people see that and what goes on with you on here and encouraged me to simply avoid you altogether. Their advice is good advice and I'm going to take it. Good luck to you----you need a ton of it at this point. 

Here we go again with more garbage about what "a number of pretty significant people" have told you.   Usually you just make this stuff up, but if there are "a number of significant people" giving you that advice it is likely because they are tired of you embarrassing them.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 01:36:19 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2008, 01:34:23 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Just to show you how trite and hackneyed your post #39 really is and certainly in light of Mike Cirba's two posts quoting newspaper articles from the Times that bracket your post, the Myopia history book by Weeks goes into that information but in far more detail and since Weeks's information is derived from the internal administration of the club at that early time it is easy to see that the subjects and almost the same wording in those newspaper accounts came from the club itself.

Again, I have no problem with newspaper and magazine articles from back then, partiuclarly if the reporter is close to the club and his reported information seems to come from the club. Perhaps you've never really thought about it but there is no way---NONE---that a newspaper reporter, even one close to a club is going to know as much about what is happening at a club architectural as those at the club who are actually involved in it. Perhaps you have never even considered that if a newspaper or magazine reporter is going to do a decent job of reporting the facts involved with a club or its golf course and its architecture, then the first and best thing he will do is to interview the people involved with it. For this reason no newspaper reporter is ever going to be as informed on subjects like these as those from a club involved in a project such as a course and architecture unless of course the reporter just happens to be a member and is involved with them in their project.

So just cut out this constant horseshit that I have no interest in newspaper or magazine articles. I do but I realize, as apparently you never have, that the best source material for any newspaper or magazine writer is inherently going to come from the subject's source, and that is the club itself and the people within it involved in these projects. And that is precisely why I have always tried to go to the source and then compare what newspaper and magazine articles say about the subject and its details.

And you have the gall and arrogance to suggest that Edward Weeks' sections on architecture in his centennial Myopia history book which is some contemporaneous club source material should be dumped and the club should start from SCRATCH?!?  :o ??? ::)

For that kind of suggestion you and your assumptions and conclusions should be banned from architectural analysis and never taken seriously again by anyone.

Of course you promote this thing you call "independent research"----it's because you seem to have no access at all to the direct raw contemporaneous club material from whence the best of these newspaper and magazine articles comes from. The oddest thing of all is you don't even seem interested in that access when it's offered to you. You sit out there somewhere in Ohio and expect a Myopia to seek you out?? What a joke that is. If you really want to understand any of these clubs and their architectural histories try to become involved with them when the opportunity is offered to you.

Believe me you do not know more about the architecture and its history of these clubs then they do and you apparently never will. But if you want to try to make a name for yourself on here by spending your time and your life taking potshots at them, and their members and friends by trying to shoot little holes in some minor details of these broad subjects by using only magazine and newspaper articles and not contemporaneous club source material then go for it, but one of these days you may wake up and find that is ultimately a real waste of time if you ever want to get to the bottom of this stuff and really understand it.

wsmorrison

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2008, 01:37:09 PM »
While studying the history of the second course, I've stumbled across a few interesting tidbits about the first Merion course .  But then I am sure you think you already know the full story about what happened there.   So for now I won't waste your time or mine going into them.

In that case, it is pretty clear why you bothered to mention them at all.



Mike,

How much time do you think a Willie Campbell spent on these sites?  18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon would be about right.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2008, 01:38:46 PM »
While studying the history of the second course, I've stumbled across a few interesting tidbits about the first Merion course .  But then I am sure you think you already know the full story about what happened there.   So for now I won't waste your time or mine going into them.

In that case, it is pretty clear why you bothered to mention them at all.

I am glad you understood my post.   A first.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2008, 02:40:47 PM »
Mike,

How much time do you think a Willie Campbell spent on these sites?  18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon would be about right.

Wayne,

About as long as H.H. Barker spent. 

Honestly.

As big a deal as we're all trying to make about Barker's contributions or not at Merion, the fact remains that he went there at the invite of the Real Estate Company and did an "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" job, which he then later roughly sketched in pencil for Mr. Connell.   

Boy, it sure must've been something! 

At the same time, Barker told Connell that he had laid out over 20 courses at that time (June 1910). 

However, we've yet to identify a single course of Barker's that was completed and opened by that time, so they must be courses that either (A) never got built, (B) are extinct or (C) were never credited to Barker.

For all of this Barker fuss, can anyone name a single distinguishable identifying characteristic of his designs?   Can anyone name a single hole he built that remains original or unaltered, or is a great hole?

He swept around the country in the approximately 6 years or so he was here and evidently did courses north, south, east, and west.    I would bet that other than those courses where he was employed as the golf professional, he didn't spend greater than a single afternoon at any of them.   He falls into the category of Willie & Seymour Dunn, Willie Tucker, Willie Campbell, early Tom Bendelow and Alex Findlay, early pretty much everyone.   

Whatever he created has been swept away like so many impermanent sand castles by time and taste.   The guy walked around the land held by the Real Estate company, {some of which was later purchased by Merion Cricket Club)  in a single day and drew up a routing probably on his lunch bag.     

I mean, never in the history of golf course architecture has so much energy, passion, emotion, and time been expended over so very little.   

Collectively, we've probably all spent 10000% more time on Barker's contribution to Merion than Herbert Barker did.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 02:43:36 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2008, 02:51:41 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Again, I'm very interested in what you may have on Willie Campbell and Myopia and I'm quite sure the club would be too if it really is of some significance. It's important that it is significant and not another trumped up expectation raising charade like this entire Merion/Macdonald/Barker thing or whatever the hell it was supposed to be.

Some of these people involved in this way from these clubs like Merion or Myopia are some pretty bright people and they know their stuff on their club and the details of its history a whole lot better and more comprehensively than you might imagine. The fact that you apparently know none of them may explain why you don't understand that. Believe me, I can appreciate that.

So consider carefully if whatever you have on Campbell and Myopia really is of some significance to the course's original architecture. You might also consider that when a history writer like Weeks who belonged to Myopia for years and was definitely no slouch with researching and writing as he was the editor of Atlantic Monthly, for God's Sake, writes that the original holes of Myopia were laid out by club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, it has to mean something significant as he was taking it right off the club's old contemporaneous board material. I don't think Myopia or me or anyone on here is going to go for some weak explanation such as they were all mistaken or glorifying themselves which seems to be your take on the best original club source material on Merion.

Nobody really buys that ridiculous rationale that the club totally lied about a Hugh Wilson or a Merrill, Appleton and Gardner so don't use an explanation like that to promote Campbell---nobody will buy it any more than Merion did. I really hate to say this on here but most of these people with these clubs are a whole lot more level-headed and logical about architectural information than some of the people on here are---eg I offer as an example the preposterous "tautology" argument offered apparently to keep the Merion charade going by its defensive author.

Believe me, nobody wants to go through another charade like that again. I know Myopia doesn't anymore that Merion did when they read that charade. They had pretty high expectations going in but their collective response once they read it was sort of like: "Are they kidding, who's going to buy this type of stretch and lack of logic?"

They are not hiding anything or glorifying anybody or anything so try not to use that weak rationale either---nobody will buy it. They don't want to waste time on an insignificant charade because someone they've never heard of is trying to make something out of nothing just to get noticed or make a name for himself. If only something solid and significant was offered but it never was and now clearly it is because there just never was anything significant anyway.

So, please, this time if you have something that you really believe is significant that doesn't involve you claiming everyone else is lying or glorifying or concealing except you, let's get on with it.

I understand you don't want to deal with me on this as you've said that on here already about five times. You don't have to deal with me. I don't want any credit for anything, I just want to see that the most accurate architectural history whatever it will be gets buttoned down someday.

So my suggestion is that you put whatever you have on Campbell and whatever he did architecturally at Myopia if you really do think it is of significance---eg a Boston Globe article or whatever on here under a Myopia thead (I suggest you start it yourself). I will see to it that they see it even if they might anyway. That way they can all see it came from you and you can get all the credit for it.

Believe me I certainly do understand that on here and some other places information, particularly solid and significant information on architecture, is real currency and those who provide it get respect for producing it. It's clear that's what you're into as you've said it yourself on here.

So just do it on here on a thread you start and let's see what you have. I think this site would like to see what it is instead of this constant cat and mouse game. I know I would and I know Myopia and the USGA would too.

So come on, let's see what you've got. Take all the credit for it, that's fine, but just produce it so it can be analyzed and considered. I don't know how any of us are going to explain the architectural significance of Appleton, Merrill and Gardner but that's a subject of another day. This is about Willie Campbell and Myopia and what if anything he did there architecturally.

If all you have is just a Boston Globe article let's also hope the reporter was good and pretty closely connected to Myopia!  ;)

 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 04:35:29 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2008, 10:20:10 PM »
So consider carefully if whatever you have on Campbell and Myopia really is of some significance to the course's original architecture. You might also consider that when a history writer like Weeks who belonged to Myopia for years and was definitely no slouch with researching and writing as he was the editor of Atlantic Monthly, for God's Sake, writes that the original holes of Myopia were laid out by club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner...

William Flynn (of Milton, MA) was married to a Gardner, one of the most prominent families in Boston.  It would not surprise me that his wife's family were of the same family tree.  Fascinating that a young Irish-American lad of working-class parents married into that family.  I guess being captain of the Milton HS golf, basketball, baseball and football teams made the Boston Brahman lass swoon a bit.

TEPaul

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2008, 11:23:21 PM »
Wayno:

You're right there about the Gardners of Boston. It definitely took me by surprise when Connie L told us her mother was a Gardner and she traced her American roots back to the Mayflower. That's pretty much a dead giveaway that it's the same family tree. Believe me if you're part of the whole Mayflower Society thing they check your family history with a fine-toothed comb. The Gardners are a really big generational Boston family though, but it is totally Old Boston. I went to school up there with a guy called Peabody (Peabo) Gardner and that's the name that sort of the filters through the family's American history.

Boston is pretty interesting that way and certainly at those clubs like Myopia, Essex, TCC, and probably Dedham and few others. Those old original Boston names are still there, and I ran into a ton of them again last week. Gardner, Hall, Hunnewell, Weeks, Appleton, Wolcott, and Bacon.

I never realized it but the guy I played with, Dan Bacon who I've known forever is the grandson or great-grandson of Robert Bacon, one of the interesting club members of TCC who laid out their original holes. Do a Google search on the guy and you'll see what an interesting cat he was. People like us called guys we knew like Robert Bacon, superstars! Guess who was really high on him, who considered him to be his fair-haired company guy? J.P. Morgan of all people. Isn't it something how this all keeps going around and around? Those boys like that back then, they sure did have the world by the tail, didn't they?

This kind of thing and those kinds of people might force me to break away into one of my infamous "stories". The subject should be Frank Shields. You want to talk about a superstar? That guy topped them all. Even Hollywood would not have dreamed him up a life like that.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:32:20 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2008, 12:17:02 AM »
Tom MacWood:
So consider carefully if whatever you have on Campbell and Myopia really is of some significance to the course's original architecture. You might also consider that when a history writer like Weeks who belonged to Myopia for years and was definitely no slouch with researching and writing as he was the editor of Atlantic Monthly, for God's Sake, writes that the original holes of Myopia were laid out by club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, it has to mean something significant as he was taking it right off the club's old contemporaneous board material. I don't think Myopia or me or anyone on here is going to go for some weak explanation such as they were all mistaken or glorifying themselves which seems to be your take on the best original club source material on Merion.

Interesting your reverence and complete trust for Mr. Weeks, who I am sure was everything you say and more.   Contrast this with the way you have mocked and dismissed H. J. Whigham, who was not only quite accomplished in his own right, but also personally witnessed that which he wrote about.    Was Mr Weeks present at Myopia in 1895?   

_______________________________________________


William Flynn (of Milton, MA) was married to a Gardner  . . . Fascinating that a young Irish-American lad of working-class parents married into that family.  I guess being captain of the Milton HS golf, basketball, baseball and football teams made the Boston Brahman lass swoon a bit.

Wayne,

Your past fawning for Flynn has been at times a tad much, but this last post?  Well . . . let's just say that perhaps it is not just young Miss Gardner who swoons for that young Irish-American lad.   

And Wayne and Tom, reading your last few posts, I cannot help but think of the Seinfeld episode with Keith Hernandez  . . .


GEORGE: look at this guy. Does he have to stretch in here?

JERRY: You know who that is? That's

GEORGE: Keith Hernandez? The baseball player?

JERRY: Yeah, that's him.

GEORGE: Are you sure?

JERRY: Positive.

GEORGE: Wow, Keith Hernandez. He's such a great player.

JERRY: Yeah, he's a real smart guy too. He's a Civil War buff.

GEORGE: I'd love to be a Civil War buff. ... What do you have to do to be a buff?

. . .
 

GEORGE: Shake his hand?

JERRY: (smiling) Yeah

GEORGE: What kind of a shake does he have?

JERRY: Good shake. Perfect shake. Single pump, not too hard, you know, doesn't
have to prove anything, but, you know, firm enough to know he was there.

GEORGE: So, uh, you gonna see him again?

JERRY: He asked me if I was doing anything Friday night.

GEORGE: Wow! The weekend.


« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 12:20:21 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: The likes of Herbert H. Barker and Willie Campbell....
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2008, 07:55:27 AM »
Moriarty,

You are a sick little man.  Only you could take an innocent post and twist it into something less than humane. 

Alright, we get it.  You don't want to hear about connections among the small world of the movers and shakers in the early 1900s.  That doesn't mean there isn't anything interesting there including the marriage of a working class Irishman with an upper crust elite Boston Brahman debutante.  It just so happens that a member of her family helped create the golf course at TCC.  Several decades later her husband significantly remodeled and designed holes for TCC.  Your narrow little scheming mind doesn't care.  Who gives a shyte?  It certainly doesn't mean that others do not care.  I don't post for you.  The world doesn't revolve around you...though with your massive (and completely unwarranted) ego there probably is some gravitational effect.

I met, played golf with, had drinks with and dined with baseball's most hallowed players, some of whom are sadly no longer around.  In fact, I did meet (and did not fawn) Keith Hernandez and shook his hand, though he is far from baseball's most hallowed players.  Why would I when I've sat at the dinner table with Willie Mays, played golf with Bob Feller and had drinks with Enos Slaughter and Brooks Robinson.  On one occasion, my wife and I were fortunate to  have dinner (and excellent wine) with Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Sandy Koufax and Red Schoendeist.  Now that was something else.

So take your mocking scenarios and go back to finding other ways to insult and harm us.  If you must continue to do so (and I'd rather you didn't), at least be competent at it and make it somewhat interesting. 

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