[Patrick_Mucci]

From your own playability perspective,
What's your preference in a challenging architectural feature ?

From your creative side, what challenging architectural feature would you prefer to insert in the design of a golf course ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Interesting natural contours.

Interesting natural contours.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Try to be more definitive, more precise, more descriptive.

Natural contours in bunkers don't work due to rain and gravity.

[BCrosby]

Angles.

Angled greens are almost always interesting. (I think you may have brought this up before.)  Whether full blown Redans or something less, I love playing them. Short approaches, long approaches, they all work. I don't know why they aren't used more often. One of the reasons I think No. 10 at Riviera is one of the best short par 4's in the world is the little angle at which Thomas set the green.  It turned a good hole into a great hole.  

In a similar vein, I love tees set diagonally to the axis of the fairway. This was a topic on GCA recently too, but again, I don't know why diagonal tees aren't used more. They don't have to involve spectacular carries like no. 5 at Mid-O. A simple finger of rough can be enough to juice up the choices at the tee.

My guess is that angles/diagonals are not used more often  because people are reluctant to cut back trees sufficiently to really open the shot options.  Unless cut back, trees will tend to overhang the edges of these angles, narrow the corridor to the target and make the shots more difficult than they need to be.  Just a guess.

Or were you looking for something even more specific?

Bob

[Scott_Burroughs]

One feature that falls in both categories is the option of being able to bounce a shot on, especially on downhill holes, with the appropriate F&F conditions.  With the drought in these parts, on my course I've been able to hit shots I've never been able to hit in the past, because the conditions were rarely there.  Of course, a few open-fronted greens are necesary for this to be possible.

Another feature I like that some may consider "anti-playability", like some modern architects bent on pleasing everyone, all the time, are blind shots.  Nothing like the brisk walk to the top of the hill (if possible) to check if the green is clear, what obstacles to avoid, and to pick out your line, then going back, trying to execute it, then the brisk walk, full of anticipation, back up to the top of the hill to see where you ended up.

[Gary_Nelson]

I'd have to say that crowned greens surrounded by closely mown "collection areas" are my favorite challenge.    Missing the green and seeing my ball roll twenty yards away makes me pissed off during the walk to my next shot.  But, by the time I get to the next shot I'm excited about the prospects of hitting a nifty chip shot (or long putt).

[A_Clay_Man]

Here in NM. there is no rain, so Tom MacWood isn't wrong.

I am learning to appreciate the Grass Bunker as an interesting and most often, difficult feature. Especially greenside where creativity and Cajones are required.

I really like the diagoanal ridges w/bunkers needed to carry off the tee, and in other key spots, ala Lawsonia. The uphill and downhill lies, inevitable if the carry isn't accomplished, cause the player to manufacter the necc. recovery shot.

I am beggining to like the idea of an uphill, completly blind tee shot, as an addition to most of these course that use the elevated tee. Mostly for variety.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

multiple elevations/tiers on green complexes.

My current example of what I am imagining: #12 Old Course.

The hole is 316 yds from the tips to the front.  A bunker sits about 15 yds off the green.  

The double green has a green that runs long from left to right.  The back to front width is 49 yds.  To visaulize the green imagine standing in the fairway looking to hit a short appraoch shot off tight firm turf.  The green is wider from the left to right and skinny front to back.  The front of the green is at foot level and then dips/flatens below your feet and then rises to a 5-8 pace shelf that is realatively flat and then severely dips off the back like a catch basin....although this is all putting surface.

To stop the ball on this shelf....the player must choose to hit a bump and run but the most successful shot is to throw the ball into the front of that flat tier rise which is about a 3-4 foot rise and let the ball bounce up and over.  A gamble but the best way to get close or to leave yourself short with a very difficult putt up the front slope or back slope....mind that you have to stop the ball again with the putter ...not easy.

I have watched various players this week(which has been sunny and hardly any wind)hit great drives down wind with 60-40yds or less to play and walking away with double bogeys scratching their heads.  I have watched 8 irons bumped off the green onto the slope and roll over the back and I have watched the sand wedge produce shots that have landed on the flat tier and roll back to the front and over the back.

  It has been nice the last couple of days to watch the various attempts and irons used on a 40-60yds shot.  What a great hole.  I will attempt to go out before sunset and snap a few shots of the #12 green from all the angles....when the sun is going down so the shadows will show the elevation changes....can somebody email thru GCA if they can post them....and let me know if there is another green wanted this evening.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Tom MacWood is wrong in New Mexico because, according to him, you can't DESIGN natural contours.

I'm surprised noone has championed a SMALL, well protected green.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat-I'm surprised you asked the Q without giving your opinion.
And here in NM there are plenty of natural features and most of the state is just one huge bunker.

I would encourage all of you to come and see me in Farmington and most importantly see Pinon hills. The small well protected greens are here, but they aren't that small, just the sections on them are.

The descriptions of RC Stanfield, Gary Nelson and Scott Burroughs all fit the features here. Interested? Just get off your beaten path and get here. Oh Yeah, sorry but the green fees are about twenty bucks.  

[Dave_Miller]

Defending par at the Green and not having to do it through 7,000 + yard courses and rough so deep you need a machete to see the ball before you hit it.
This might be fine for the Tiger Woods' of the world but for the everyday player challenge them at the green.  
Best
Dave

[Bill_Ryzewski]

Off the tee I like small, discrete patches of level land within  a sloping fairway. Even better when it provides the best angle to the green. The 16th at Pasatiempo is a great example. I thought I'd over cooked a draw into or near the baranca only to find I was on a small flat patch with a great look at the green. All my partners were playing their second with the ball well below their feet. Interestingly, I may have never noticed the area without out the help of that high temprature hook.

I also enjoy small fairway turbo boosts that reward a particular ball flight.

[Lou Duran]

It would be great if one of this site's independently wealthy participants would purchase a reasonably good golf site and incorporate the many outstanding ideas suggested here in designing a course.  While the operation would rival the construction of the Tower of Babel, it would be an interesting exercise, maybe even surpassing Pine Valley in terms of continuous time to complete.

In addition to those features already mentioned, I like an occasional directional hazard, e.g. a large sand trap, mound, or even a specimen tree, which is only marginally reachable under the best conditions, but gives you something to aim at, and think about.

I also like like:

An occasional shallow swail in front of the green which tricks the mind into thinking that the shot is much shorter than it really is.

A subtle diagonal ridge at the entrance of a green which kicks the ball violently into a hazard or a difficult chipping area if the shot is played marginally off-line, and rewards the proper play with a correspondingly good bounce.

A long, hard-ass par 4 into the prevailing wind, with a tight drive, but generous green surrounds, where you have to "nut" the drive in order to set-up a long iron second shot.

A drivable short par 4, with death down one side, and a long, with a very slightly elevated narrow green falling away from the fairway (green similar to #3 or 4 at Spyglass).   Shivas can add some of his pot bunkers here at the back.

A par 5 like #13 at ANGC, juxtaposed (?) to a long one like #16 at Olympic-Lake or Sand Hills.

A couple of medium length "reverse dog legged" par 4s (I believe that Brad Klein called them "negative camber" in the Olympic thread) where you have to shape the tee shot based on the wind and firmness of the ground in order to have a good short iron to the green from the fairway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Opinions of DEEP fairway bunkers ?

Opinions of DEEP Blind fairway bunkers ??

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I have absolutely no problem with deep fwy bunkers or blind fwy bunkers. #16 Old Course has fwy bunkers sprinkled thru the middle of the fwy as well as OB to the right and it makes you think twice about where to place your driver or if to hit driver....its kinda like when Luke Skywalker closed his eyes when training with Yoda....you have to trust yourself and swing and just hit the tee shot you have pictured away from the hazards...and OB.

Another example is #13 which has fwy bunkers in the middle of the fwy and they are blind.....I guess the reason why I like the fwy bunkers  even if they are blind is that you have to determine how far you can carry the ball.  Wind or no wind places each bunker into play with different severities.  It separates the guys who say and think they carry the ball 250+ from the guys who really know that they carry the ball 200 yds and know when to use the iron off the tee or imagine a different line to the hole.

It puts the game back into the strategy of tortoise and hare.  Speed/length doesnt always win the race.  fwy bunkers blind just make the good players trust their swings and think their way around the course.  Are they unfair...thats another argument.

[David Graves]

Anything that makes me think there is more than one way to hit a shot with a good result. Of course, the thinking is the key---the doing something entirely different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Graves,

What are some of the features that make you think ?

What features make you think fearfully ?

[A_Clay_Man]

Shivas. From your last post it could be infered, among other things, that you did not care for the Rees redo of the Black. Those were some huge bunkers.

What about the ones at BWR? At least with those bunkers one has a chance to still attempt a miracle recovery. But  your notion of these smallish pot bunkers( ala TOC) is admirable but if they are too small or too penal they limit the ability to recover miraculously.

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