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Buck Wolter

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Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« on: June 30, 2008, 11:01:18 PM »
I was scheduled to have a weekend at Kingsley earlier in June but United Airlines decided I really wanted a day trip to O'hare. I was looking forward to meeting with Dan Lucas and getting a tour of the changes that Mike DeVries has been working on with the club on #17. Thought it would be of interest to the group here to see the changes.

I have only played the course twice and haven't seen the changes but volunteered to post some photos the club was nice enough to provide. Hopefully Dan and/or Mike will chime in with some details but Dan told me in an email that the total fairway was basically being doubled on the hole. My recollection is that #17 was the tightest hole on the course. Two new bunkers are being added according to the club as well.

Here are the basic stats and description of the hole:
 
Back   Regular  Middle  Forward  Par 
     
509       484        434       378       5
 
A reachable par five for most players, the seventeenth plays to the top of a ridge before falling sharply to a large bowl and then rising again to the green set amongst mature hardwoods. Good drives will crest the landing area at the top of the hill and leave a short iron for an approach.

Drives to the top of the hill will look down upon the green and have a chance to get home in two with a well-struck fairway wood. The green will set classically in the trees and be flanked by bunkers.
 
Diagram


Routing (#17 Just right of the North Indicator)


Before shots of #17















Phase 1 Construction Photos




















Current Photos





The existing bunker on the left becomes a centerline hazard with a new bunker(s) along the left?




I believe the irrigation is in and the seeding has been done or will be shortly -- amazing amount of work done by Dan and his crew over the last month. Thanks to Brian Conklin and Justin Mack at the club who provided the photos -- exciting that a club with the accolades that it has already received isn't afraid to make some dramatic changes in the way of expanded options and better turf.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Peter Pallotta

Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 11:29:01 PM »
Buck

thanks much for posting. I hope those who've played the course can chime in. I thought the only Mike Devries course I've played a wonderful one. On the one hand and at first viewing, the changes here to 17 seem to be making it more of a Mike Devries Par 5 (or at least more of what I think of as a Mike Devries Par 5).  On the other hand, the original -- in it's 'take what the land is giving you' aesthetic and strategy -- didn't surprise me either, coming from Mike.  I'd love to hear the thoughts of the more knowledgable and experienced Kingsley Club golfers...

Thanks
Peter
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 11:40:04 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 03:04:25 AM »
The irrigation is in.  The areas for fairway and mowed rough have been floated for seeding, but this has not happened due to erosion mats not arriving in time.  Seeding should happen sometime this week if it did not happen today. 

Two years ago, 17 was opened up a bit, and I was fortunate enough to be on the crew while this happened.  The original images of 17 posted by Buck always showed a hole that was cramped and very much different from every other hole on the course.  From 2006 onward, the hole has 'breathed' a bit more easily,  and the green certainly has not been surrounded by mature hardwoods.  All trees behind and to the right were removed, and many down the left side of the fairway were also removed and turfed in. 

Here are some images from last Friday:

From the existing tee


From what will be a new tee moved to the left to encourage more play to the newly opened left side


The two new bunkers have been sodded with the existing native that was torn up during construction.  This is the same stuff that was seeded two years ago in the last widening.  In a few weeks, once the sod takes root, edge lines will be spray painted randomly (in the truest sense) and then cut with a sod knife and tamped in.  The bunkers will then get lined with a permeable geotextile and filled and then wait for the new seed to grow in.




"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

TEPaul

Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 06:17:28 AM »
The opening up of that hole certainly appeals to me as to the look of it but somebody like Mike DeVries should talk about what kind of additional functional options and strategies will be opened up with this alteration and how much they will be used in actual play. I know it'd just be an estimation, at this point, but after-all that's what architectural planning is all about.

Brian Cenci

Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 09:06:38 AM »
I played Kingsley this year about 4 weeks ago.  Probably my 5th or 6th round there.   I think the changes at 17, which they were clearing it when I played a few weeks ago, really improve the hole.  I liked the hole before but now it makes it more of a thinking hole, rather than bomb it over the hill and long iron in.. Should be a nice step up on that hole.

-Brian

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 10:10:33 AM »
Is that the same hole?
I cannot believe the difference.
I played there about 3 years ago and would not have recognised the hole...what a huge inprovement, as the old 17th was probabaly the weak link on an otherwise awesome course.
I was supposed to gp back to play in The Peninslua Cup next month but have been sidelined with Tigeritis...knee surgery...now I am even more dissapointed.
great photographs thank you guys very much.

Chuck Brown

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 11:59:26 AM »
I love it.  It is good for the hole, and is more in keeping with the rest of the course.  I thinki it is a great idea, and looks to be well-executed.  There is interesting topography there that was wasted as deep woods.

Now about #9...  ;)

Bill_McBride

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 02:46:38 PM »
I love it.  It is good for the hole, and is more in keeping with the rest of the course.  I thinki it is a great idea, and looks to be well-executed.  There is interesting topography there that was wasted as deep woods.

Now about #9...  ;)

The only way I could figure out to birdie #9 was out of the front bunker!

Michael Dugger

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 04:08:58 PM »
Great course getting better.  This is all good stuff....

About half the courses I play need a good chainsaw taken to them.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Nick_Christopher

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2008, 01:05:04 PM »
Since the course opening, the 17th has undergone several tweaks.  Each has made it a better hole.  This is by far a more dramatic revision to the hole, and it is very exciting to see.  I have witnessed the course evolve substantially since first playing the front 9 in 1999.  Most of that evolution has taken place on the back 9, and it has been a lot of fun to witness.  Many of the golden age courses evolved over their first 10 - 20 years of opening, and I think this approach has served The Kingsley Club very well.  Can't wait to play the new fairway.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 11:04:59 PM »
Buck, Tom Paul, et al.

I spoke with Mike this evening and his intention was to post on the thread tonight. But, the internet gremlins have conspired agin'em.
 He will get to answering your questions as soon as he has overcome the gremlins.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 11:28:02 PM »
Not architecture related....but I can tell you the view from the back porches of the cottages is much improved.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RJ_Daley

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 11:49:41 PM »
Weren't the long drivers hitting mid irons into that green when playing it at 500 yards and catching the big downslope off the tee?  I gotta think that the new back tee from the rear left made it highly necessary to take out the forest to the left and then make a quality approach with the new center line instead of left side bunker and new approach FW to its left.  Will the new tees still allow the 270-300 hitters to get to the near crest of the hill, and see anything of the green, or tip of flag?  I can see the merit in widening the approach on the left of the existing bunker in that case, because it really makes the guy going for it more heroically than the old second shot, think about the bunker big time, and if he can't quite see it, and has to walk ahead a little to scope it out before playing the shot makes it all the more exciting, IMO. 

Any tweaking or thinking by Mikey D about the far left gully and upslope into the woods in the LZ on 18?  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_DeVries

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 01:47:02 AM »
Hi All,

Sorry for the long wait -- still having computer problems, but have my fingers crossed it won't be too long!

As to the changes -- there are more trees on the back nine and this was due to the maturity of the trees there and the overall scrub from the clearcut of the front 10 years prior to building the course.  There was some cutting on the back, but not nearly so uniformly wall-to-wall as the front.  I would have initially cut more trees on the back for many reasons: agronomics for the pure fescue turf, tie-in to the front nine openness, and an overall appreciation of the roll of the land. 

As on any project, trees are the most controversial subject of all.  Everyone is a tree-hugger to some extent and want to keep the beautiful specimens, even if they are impeding the turf (remember that trees steal the sunlight, air movement, nutrients, and water -- that's 4 strikes! -- from the turf).  In the beginning, there was resistance to cutting more on the back from the owners and we have been removing trees every year to improve the turf quality -- as Nick pointed out, we have tweaked the trees on 17 many times and this year we expanded the hole as you see from my earlier discussions with them about what the hole could become.

All the tees will remain in their current positions this year but we will change them next year.  The gold (back) tee is staying where it is, but we will add another tee about 30 yards back, near the current turnaround circle.  The blue, white, and red tees will move to the left of the current cart path and lose a little yardage from the current sets -- this move better aligns the average player with the widened hole and gives them more options.  When the tees move over, we will also re-align the cart path on 16 to run adjacent to the fairway, giving better access to the hole and less disruption between the 2 holes when it is busy during events, thus improving the flow through this area.

The main advantages to the changes are dramatically improved turf conditions for the fescue by providing the 4 essential items noted above.  There will be increased options for players of all levels -- the ability to drive it over the hill now is only afforded to the big hitters, but the new left route will give shorter players a chance -- the actual drop-off is shorter by about 10 yards, but the flat ground spot on the left is at least 30 yards shorter, and with the dry, tight fairways where the ball always runs, hitting over the hill becomes a very doable option.  The left alley is a little narrower to offset the shorter carry required and the 2 new bunkers will make the 3rd shot longer, as the recovery from them will not permit a long shot from them.  The retention of the gold tee where it is and the new longer one will still demand the good players hit a really clean shot to get it down the big hill.  The left alley has a little flatter pitch to it than the existing right side -- there are a few areas that will make for a flatter stance in spots -- and the angle of the approach to the green is advantageous for certain pins and shot types, so that leads to more variety.  The look from the left also sometimes obscures the green surface, due to the large ridge that comes off the left hillside above the fairway bunker that was on the left but is now in the middle.  The look of the hole is very dramatic, both from the tee and the green, looking back -- I am very pleased with the work.  An interesting note to the strategy -- one of  the better players in the club prefers to be on the top of the hill so he can cut his 3W into the green.  He said the maple next to the bunker and the one near the green knocked down that shot every time but now he can go for it.  My hope is that players will be more tempted to go for it and have an opportunity to do so more often.

We are also adding a new back tee on 14, adding about 25-30 yards for the gold tee there -- a similar challenge as was done on #10 a couple of years back.

Hope that answers the questions!

Mike

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 02:31:10 AM »
Additionally, going down the shorter left side is also offset by the angle into the green.  From the left you must carry the left fronting bunker, and,if you do, you are likely to be kicked into one of the right front bunkers unless a perfectly shaped shot really hugs the left hand side (this happened to me today from the current left side rough from 180).  The green also slopes from back left to front right, placing further advantage for down the rightside hill.

An another note, the maintained area (fairway and short rough) has been seeded, and boy is there a load of erosion mat.  I'll post photos tomorrow--too tired now after a state-spanning drive.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Buck Wolter

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 10:38:30 PM »
I finally got to see Kingsley last week -- 17 looks like it will be a blast and judging by the play I saw the existing and new bunkers are going to get some use. Given the slope of the green I don't think it will be a pushover as anything above the hole is damn near dead, my partner's eagle putt ended up 30 yards down the hill and I had to putt 45 degrees from the hole due to going past the pin.

The rest of the course was in great shape, kudos to Dan Lucas and his crew for not slipping while they obviously have done a huge amount of work on 17 -- the course was  brownish green and the greens all had a nice patina, firm and pretty damn fast while still playable even in a brisk wind.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

George Freeman

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 09:47:59 AM »
I played the Kingsley Club yesterday for the first time this year and as usual, it did not disappoint.  Just an absolutely fantastic and incredibly FUN golf course.  I haven't played a course that I can say "hands down" is more fun, or has more variety and strategy than Kingsley; and that includes the Bandon courses.  There is an infinite number of ways to play almost every hole, and that's tough to beat...

The first time I played Kingsley was in 2001 or 2002, and I have played it twice since, including yesterday (thanks Mac).  Each time I play it, I notice subtle changes (although I can't call the most recent change to 17 subtle) that the club has made and how well these changes turned out.  The tree clearing on 10, 11, 14/15 (new), 17 and 18 worked wonders for the back nine and really tied to two nines together.  It's great to see that small tweaks can be made to make an already fantastic golf course that much better, while at the same time keeping the "feel" of the course true to its origin.   

The 17th looks awesome; it's seeded and looks to be growing in nicely (from an untrained eye).  The look of the hole fits the course drastically better than it did prior to opening it up.  That was the only tee shot on the course where the golfer felt a little claustrophobic, but the tweaks will fix that and introduce a multitude of options as well as give the hole a look that matches the rest of the course.

Couples questions regarding the 17th for anyone who may be in the "know":

- will there be any maintained rough around the outside of the centerline bunkers at the crest of the hill?  If so, how much, and how closely will the fairway enclose the group?

- will the fairway extend close up to the right side of the new left fairway bunkers?  And how far left will the fairway extend left before the new left fairway bunker group?

- will the ridge short/left of the green be maintained as long wild grass, rough, or as fairway?  And along those same lines, will there be fairway left of the large bunker that fronts the green, making it a centerline sand trap? 


I look forward to learning more about the project and to seeing the final product.  And as always, I'm looking forward my next go-around at the Kingsley Club.

Cheers,

George

   
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mike_DeVries

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2008, 10:22:04 AM »
Couples questions regarding the 17th for anyone who may be in the "know":

- will there be any maintained rough around the outside of the centerline bunkers at the crest of the hill?  If so, how much, and how closely will the fairway enclose the group?

- will the fairway extend close up to the right side of the new left fairway bunkers?  And how far left will the fairway extend left before the new left fairway bunker group?

- will the ridge short/left of the green be maintained as long wild grass, rough, or as fairway?  And along those same lines, will there be fairway left of the large bunker that fronts the green, making it a centerline sand trap?     

George,
Thanks for the questions.

1) Fairway will be cut close to the centerline bunker complex on the tee side and left and right, so a ball will run into them.  There will be maintained rough to complement and integrate the bunkers with longer native rough on the back of the bunkers.

2) The fairway will go out to the left of the new left fairway bunker and will be mown closely to the tee side of the bunker for those "roll-ins."  There will be ample space to play a very conservative drive on the left, short of the bunkers, with the requisite blind second over the hill to the bottom of the fairway in the second landing area for an uphill approach.  Native rough will be on the back side and left of the bunker.

3)The ridge above the bunker that is short of the green will remain as long native grass, but fairway at the bottom will go left to widen the second landing area and accommodate drives down the left alley side off the tee.  So, yes, the bunker that was on the left of the approach is now a centerline bunker.

On a related note, Golfweek just had a raters retreat in northern MI and they played Kingsley on Monday -- I would be interested in more of their thoughts, especially after more reflection and time away from the course.

Best,
Mike

John Kirk

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2008, 10:32:27 AM »
I'm concerned the change makes it much easier for the long ball hitter, who can aim at the center bunkers and spray his ball +/- 40-50 yards.  Whereas a truly long ball hitter used to be soemwhat precise, he will almost always succeed getting his ball to the bottom of the hill.  I think this change adds to the big advantage the bomber already has here.

During my recent visit, we played from the back tees into a stiff breeze most days, and the existing tee shot is very exacting for a guy like me, who typically hits it 230-250 off the tee.  The next shot is blind, and must be executed well to have a third shot from the fairway.

So, let's take two low handicappers, the straighter medium length hitter and the big power player (you wouldn't believe how far this guy hit the ball).  For me, the old hole either went driver, mid-iron, short-iron (70-80%), or bad driver, short-iron, mid-iron (20-30%).  The percentage for the easier scenario will likely jump into the 90% range.  The bomber plays it today as driver, mid-to-short iron (60-70%), then driver, recovery, mid-iron (or worse, like driver, reload, driver, etc.) (30-40%), and now he's more like driver, mid-to-short iron (90%).

Well, all of that explanation was a bit complex.  I believe golf courses should have a few holes which give the long hitter an advantage.  #17 at Kingsley is an unusual example, and the changes only increase the advantage.

I heard Shivas McClayman was spotted at the retreat.

George Freeman

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2008, 10:45:00 AM »
John,

I somewhat agree with your concern, however with the new back tee it will take a solid 300 yarder (Mike, correct me if I'm wrong) to clear the crest and get down the hill, not taking any wind into consideration.  And although I don't think the extra width is completely offset by the extra yardage (driving difficulty-wise), it definitely helps offset it somewhat.  I think it's OK that every once and a while someone who can hit a 300 yard drive be given a large advantage; b/c I don't think that is a huge # of players.

Bottom line, the way I see it now is that the hole is much more playable for all levels, and the changes bring variety to a drive that didn't have much before, i.e. hit it down the tight fairway or else. 

Cheers,

George 

   
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 11:12:21 AM »
John and George,

Yes, there are plans to add another gold (back) tee in the future, adding 30 yards to the hole -- moving back to just behind the current turnaround circle -- while still keeping the existing gold tee for variety.  Possibly might shift the other tees over to the left to provide a better chance to the regular golfer of hitting it down the hill -- this is really not an opportunity for them with the original configuration.   

The new back tee would demand a really big drive to carry the ridge, and as the right alley rises all the way to the top of the ridge before going over, it will be very difficult for them to get over on that side.  The left alley is narrower but has a flatter spot that is about 30 yards shorter to get to, thus allowing the firm turf to release the ball down the hill on the left.  An interesting preference of one of the club's better players is that he likes to be on the top of the ridge, hitting a little cut 3-wood at the green versus at the bottom with a shorter club.  So I think we are getting a lot more options for every level of golfer and reducing the severity of the drive for the average player and the better player that lays off of the drive, but that forces quite a bit more challenge on the third, as I think the uphill approach from the bowl in the second landing area is difficult for everyone.

Mike

Steven_Biehl

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 12:03:50 PM »
I am having the same thoughts as John about the changes.  I don't think it adds any strategy to the hole.  To me, a short hitter, the play off the tee is to the right of the bunkers to achieve a straight look into the green.  I can't see a benefit when playing to the left fairway.  I may be in the minority on this too, but I think the hole looked much better with the trees.  I would have said thin out some of them for some sun, but keep the rest.   
"He who creates a cricket ground is at best a good craftsman but the creator of a great hole is an artist.  We golfers can talk, and sometimes do talk considerable nonsense too, about our favourite holes for hours together." - Bernard Darwin, Golf

Joe Hancock

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 12:12:02 PM »
I have to agree with Mike here (surprise!)....

Even if the player crests the ridge, the chance of the ball rolling out to a flat lie at the bottom are very slim. What that leaves the player is a downhill lie to an uphill target from 180 yards or so....not exactly a shot that is easy to control.

So, while the player feels like he has set himself up for a good go at eagle, they walk off with a disappointing par, or more...potentially. And then, it's off to #18.......Remember, you have to look at each hole as part of a whole, not an individual event to assign "easy" or "hard", "good" or "bad". In a match play event especially, the psychological peaks and valleys in a round are influential to the outcome of the match.....and who wants to tee it up on #18 all square, but PO'd at one's self for a missed opportunity the previous hole?..... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 12:23:41 PM »
Did somebodies grandmother do the shaping!

OUCH!.....

That must hurt when you recognize that you're work is being outdone by someone's Grandma...

 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_DeVries

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Re: Changes to The Kingsley Club #17
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 12:26:29 PM »
I am having the same thoughts as John about the changes.  I don't think it adds any strategy to the hole.  To me, a short hitter, the play off the tee is to the right of the bunkers to achieve a straight look into the green.  I can't see a benefit when playing to the left fairway.  I may be in the minority on this too, but I think the hole looked much better with the trees.  I would have said thin out some of them for some sun, but keep the rest.   

Steven,

We thinned out trees for the last 4-5 years, taking more and more every year -- pretty soon it just looks anemic when you are next to them, although you would still have a tree-lined view from the tee.  I appreciate that you preferred the treed look -- that is ok.  I think we are progressing with a more consistent look throughout the course and that is more important than an individual hole for me.

Best,
Mike

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