[David Neveux]

I consider myself to be a big hitter and in maybe 6-10 tries have never driven it over the hill.  Mostly due to poor shot execution and of course wind.  That being said, I will concede that the original hole was a difficult driving hole for a long hitter, mostly because of the constained look and feel of the hole.  Now, it's completely different, and I think probably for the better.  I also think that the fact that there are now a few different options, to play different shots off the tee left or right, hook or slice, makes it difficult for the better player / long hitter to completely commit to a shot.  The uncertainty of knowing whether you've selected the best shot for that day taking into consideration the wind, state of your game, shape you predominately hitting that day is the best.
      It's still possible to miss that fairway, because I did the other day.  Even though the left side is closed for play, you still felt like you could hit it over there because of a FREE DROP.  Instead I elected to cut the ball with the wind, and cut it I did to the top of the hill in the right rough.  I did walk over to have a look at the hole from the middle of the left fairway and I must say it's like they found a completely new hole over there. 
     Also, I think for a guy who wants to hit a hook off the tee, and then play a running hook short of the green up the slope it's an excellent path to take.  Then theres the question whether it's an easier approach to the green for the tee shot that sits at the top of the ridge or one to the bottom of the hill.  I've never been to the bottom or bottomish with a big drive, but I've been just short several times.  I don't mind the shot from the top of hill, which is closer to the same elevation as the green, at all.  I would be tempted to say that especially for "big hitters" it may be an easier shot for up top, than it would be from the bottom.  That may not be the case in a big wind, but getting your drive over the hill is going to be difficult in a big wind as well.
      I ended up hitting a huge hybrid just short of the green and chipping up short of the hole and making a nice putt for birdie after my partner Karl or Jim or was it Craig? drained a monster from the back side wayyyy above the hole for bird.  2 pts. for the good guys.  So all in all I like the changes a whole heck of a lot.  It's now a hole that is wickedly similar and fits better to the overall set of holes.  I think it's a nice transition, from the back side back towards the front.  The transition really starts on the 16th in my opinion, and continues that flow back out and into the 18th very well. 
      All in all it adds variety to a hole that was maybe limited a little bit originally.  I don't think that the holes is now an EASY BIRDIE, for any player, save the guys on T.V.  But if it gives people some different options off the tee and maybe allows for a shorter player the chance to give the hill and go and maybe reach the green in 2, thats all good.  The other factors like turf quality are also an added plus. 

I would love to share more of my thoughts and opinions on the course and plan on doing so, but for a guy who's on the clock, I'm out for now. 

Nev

[Mike_DeVries]

Nev,

You had to bring up the double victory on 17, didn't you?!?!?

Good thoughts on the hole and changes -- thanks.

Mike (the guy who missed his birdie putt for the other team!)

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm a HUGE fan of Kingsley, but after seeing the changes on 17, I'm still not sure what the reasons are, other than adding some width.

I can't imagine any functional or strategic purpose to the new left side fairway other than adding width for the sake of removing some penal qualities to the hole.

[Brian Cenci]

I'm a HUGE fan of Kingsley, but after seeing the changes on 17, I'm still not sure what the reasons are, other than adding some width.

I can't imagine any functional or strategic purpose to the new left side fairway other than adding width for the sake of removing some penal qualities to the hole.

Don't you think it blends much better with the rest of the front side holes?  Dave is right, as Mike explained it to us in our round that he wanted to transition people from the backside holes (more wooded feel) back more into the front (with the more open feel).  I like the changes.  The setup from the left side toward the green looks pretty cool.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian,

Yes, I understand the visual transition he wanted to soften, but I'm simply saying that adding width here isn't necessarily adding anything in the way of strategic interest or variability that I can see.

[Buck Wolter]

I took a couple photos last weekend of the grow-in. They said in the clubhouse it had just gotten it's first haircut.

Not really part of the work on 17 but I love the way 16 and 17 come together.


From the Tee



Nearer the start of the fairway


The new bunkers (I think these are both new)


I just like this one


From the top of the hill


Bottom of the hill towards the green


Bottom of the hill back towards the tee

[RSLivingston_III]

Sorry if this was answered and I missed it.
When is the left fairway expected to be in and mown to fairway height?

[Mike_DeVries]

Sorry if this was answered and I missed it.
When is the left fairway expected to be in and mown to fairway height?

Ralph,

I think Dan will be mowing it down in the fall to get it to fill in, but it won't be as tight as the rest of the course until next year.

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

I'm a HUGE fan of Kingsley, but after seeing the changes on 17, I'm still not sure what the reasons are, other than adding some width.

I can't imagine any functional or strategic purpose to the new left side fairway other than adding width for the sake of removing some penal qualities to the hole.

Mike,

See reply #20 above.  This really gives another dimension to the hole by giving the player a shorter option to hit it over the hill.  The wider space of the short landing area does make it less penal for the average player, as the original layout was quite narrow for the short hitter and this will be better for them and give them a shot at going over the hill, while still demanding precision to do so.

What are your other thoughts on the course?

Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

My other thoughts on the course are that it is at least as good as I thought it was when I originally played there about five years ago, and that it is one of the most unique, exhilerating, perplexing, groundbreaking, thought-provoking, opinion-splintering, barometer-of-architectural-taste courses built in the past 50 years.

I also personally believe it is one of the best 15-20 courses built in the past 50 years and there isn't a shot on the course that doesn't require planning, foresight, execution, a bit of good fortune, and an accepting, playful attitude.  It also pushes the edge of what's expected as "fair" and a "given" in the modern game, and to me that's where it really shines.   When people criticize holes like 9 and 15 I understand where there coming from, although I don't agree.   I believe that sometimes turning things on their head is the best way to keep people on their toes.

It's certainly daring and a throwback to a time when the game was more about adventure and matchplay attitude.   

I was thrilled at the opportunity to play there again this past week, and happy that others had the chance to experience it as well.

All of that said, I still think you'd rather hear honest criticism than fawning praise so I hope you consider that my comments on 17 are coming from that belief.   

[Adam Clayman]

I too felt the criticisms of the course were founded in an attitude I'm not sure I'm all that familiar with, because they're based on one's own game, and, apparently some fundamental formulaic concepts that should be cryit doon.

My feelings were that Greywalls pushed Mike's gca envelope even farther. I loved'em both for different feelings. Having now seen both the Mines and Diamond Springs, too, I'm very impressed with Mike's versatility.

Mike, Were you at all tempted to put a hidden bunker on the leeward side of the left kick plate mound guarding #12, ala another famous 12th? (sorry to hijack)

Also, Will you be toning it down for the Asian market, or hitting'em with an amped up version of your abilities?

[Mike_DeVries]

All of that said, I still think you'd rather hear honest criticism than fawning praise so I hope you consider that my comments on 17 are coming from that belief.   

Mike,
Absolutely!  I thank you for your honesty and forthright attitude -- hearing all aspects is how I learn and what people are thinking.  We may not agree completely on something but I would rather debate that with what I was looking at and trying to do than have you say it is great and that is it.  Good discussion and dissection can really lead to improving the product.

Sometimes the discussions surrounding golf courses get too bogged down on 1 particular element or hole, without regard for the rest of the golf course or the big picture.  I tend to think in sequences of holes and not individual holes -- that can be a hard concept for some golfers, who are looking for the "signature hole" that will blow them away.  I would rather have a great series of holes that complement and work really well together instead of one great hole and some filler holes.  Of course, I have to think about individual holes also.

Many thanks too for your other comments -- a lot of what you said I take as a high compliment. 

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

My feelings were that Greywalls pushed Mike's gca envelope even farther. I loved'em both for different feelings. Having now seen both the Mines and Diamond Springs, too, I'm very impressed with Mike's versatility.

Mike, Were you at all tempted to put a hidden bunker on the leeward side of the left kick plate mound guarding #12, ala another famous 12th? (sorry to hijack)

Also, Will you be toning it down for the Asian market, or hitting'em with an amped up version of your abilities?

Adam,
I would love to hear more of your analysis of my courses after seeing them all -- did you not get to Pilgrim's Run?

Are you referring to the 13th at the Downs in regards to the #12 question?  No is the answer.

Tone it down?  Pedal to the metal, Buddy!!!!      Honestly, we have to make it playable but it also should respond to the land and not be simple.  The Vietnamese are not yet savvy golfers so we will have to educate them and give them solid golf.

Mike

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, I do mean the 12th. The left side slope that feeds into the green. It reminded me of 12 at The Downs and how well camouflaged that bunker is. But also how the right side of the green front works with the mini sin valley. I did turn back and see that the slopes were significantly different and that it would likely be a difficult proposition to pull off. However, I did feel it would've been WFC and the ultimate homage to the Downs at Kingsley Club. Maybe even blatant stealing?

As for the rest of your work. I haven't really processed it all but my initial instincts are that you build one hell of a medium on which to sport. Thoughtful, fits their environs, fun, heroic, inspirational, rough n' rugged, gentle and elegant. The routing at Greywalls was truly something to feel. A new concept if ever I saw one.
I'm sure I'll have more questions and comments in the future.

P.s. I did only tour Pilgrims and I haven't even left GR and I know it was a  mistake not to play. Although, I was shocked at Michigan Golf. Every single course, except for the great ones (Greywalls The Downs and Kingsley), were lush as lush could be. It was disgusting seeing all the un-repaired ball marks, The sprayers. Even poor Angels Crossing is being drowned as we speak. What a pity!

 

[Mike McGuire]

Never played Kingsley but from the images the 17 th after tree management looks much better. The hole looks claustrophobic in the before photos.

[Scott Stambaugh]

Mike and/or anyone involved with this project-

Brett Hochstein took some photos of the new bunkers on July 1st and commented that they were close to being painted, cut-in and tamped.  Buck Wolter took some photos last weekend of (I presume) the same bunkers that don't seem to have had anything done to them based on the dried out sod edges and weeds in the bunkers.

I'm interested in your process of finishing the edges of these bunkers.  Any photos you can continue to post are greatly appreciated.  I'd love to come see it firsthand, but I'm halfway across the country.

Scott

[RSLivingston_III]

Adam,
I too think you are confusing 12 and 13 at CD.
I used the slope on the left on 12 (at Kingsley) all the time for a pin on the left shelf and a bunker there would make those shots almost impossible.

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike, I do mean the 12th. The left side slope that feeds into the green. It reminded me of 12 at The Downs and how well camouflaged that bunker is. But also how the right side of the green front works with the mini sin valley. I did turn back and see that the slopes were significantly different and that it would likely be a difficult proposition to pull off. However, I did feel it would've been WFC and the ultimate homage to the Downs at Kingsley Club. Maybe even blatant stealing?

P.s. I did only tour Pilgrims and I haven't even left GR and I know it was a  mistake not to play. Although, I was shocked at Michigan Golf. Every single course, except for the great ones (Greywalls The Downs and Kingsley), were lush as lush could be. It was disgusting seeing all the un-repaired ball marks, The sprayers. Even poor Angels Crossing is being drowned as we speak. What a pity!

Adam,

I understand you mean the 12th at Kingsley with the hillside slope and the "mini-valley-of-sin" as you called it on the right.  But aren't you referring to the 13th at the Downs with the front slope bleeding into the green from the front left and the bunker behind it?  CD's 12th feeds into the green and falls away but that is more from the right and not with the bunker hidden like you suggest or with the severity of the slope, definitely a more subtle play and hole.

Lushness is a factor of American golf and particularly this year with the cooler temps and more rain in the spring.  Unfortunately, most Americans don't really understand or are willing to grasp the concept of dry, firm turf conditions or how a golf course should play versus how it looks.  I think we still have a hard time in this country separating what golf should really be and instead golf is viewed as a visual backdrop for a number of landscape scenarios.  That is also why serious golfers who love the sport of golf are attracted to those playing fields that are more substance than show -- golfers want a course that presents them with a number of options and variety, not the same old thing every time they play.

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike and/or anyone involved with this project-

Brett Hochstein took some photos of the new bunkers on July 1st and commented that they were close to being painted, cut-in and tamped.  Buck Wolter took some photos last weekend of (I presume) the same bunkers that don't seem to have had anything done to them based on the dried out sod edges and weeds in the bunkers.

I'm interested in your process of finishing the edges of these bunkers.  Any photos you can continue to post are greatly appreciated.  I'd love to come see it firsthand, but I'm halfway across the country.

Scott

Scott,

There is not a need to finish the bunkers until the area is really ready to be played -- the seeded play area is growing in and being mowed down but is not ready yet for fairway height -- so we are letting the sod on the bunker edge root as best as possible.  The dried out edges of the sod are going to be cut away in the edging process, when the sod will be cut by hand and the edge of the bunker formed and defined, followed by the bunker sand.

Hope that helps.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, I do mean the 12th. The left side slope that feeds into the green. It reminded me of 12 at The Downs and how well camouflaged that bunker is. But also how the right side of the green front works with the mini sin valley. I did turn back and see that the slopes were significantly different and that it would likely be a difficult proposition to pull off. However, I did feel it would've been WFC and the ultimate homage to the Downs at Kingsley Club. Maybe even blatant stealing?

Just wondering why it isn't "stealing" when C.B. MacDonald channels the great holes of the UK, or Raynor follows his lead?  "Homage" is definitely a better word.

I saw a lot of Crystal Downs at the Kingsley Club but all derivative.   It's pretty obvious that both Mike DeVries and Tom Doak have played a lot of golf at Crystal Downs.  Great course, great greens making a mid length course have a whole lot of teeth.

I must have missed the definition of "WFC." 

[Buck Wolter]

Mike-
Since you're checking in I wondered if you could let us know what the plans are for the knob left of the green on 17. The choice of fairway, rough or native will create very different options in playing this hole especially from the new left side.

Buck
 

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike-
Since you're checking in I wondered if you could let us know what the plans are for the knob left of the green on 17. The choice of fairway, rough or native will create very different options in playing this hole especially from the new left side.

Buck
 

Buck,

The ridge that is short of the green and left of the bunker at the base of the approach will be long rough, with fairway beyond, similar to its configuration from the past.  Of course, the trees are gone, opening up the shot from the left or allowing a cut/fade into the green.  The amount of play space to the left of the green will be expanded a bit, with some more fairway cut and regular rough cut in the bowl left of the green -- this will make it easier to find a ball hit there -- the recovery shot will still be hard, as the green basically slopes away from that angle.

Mike

[Scott Stambaugh]

Mike and/or anyone involved with this project-

Brett Hochstein took some photos of the new bunkers on July 1st and commented that they were close to being painted, cut-in and tamped.  Buck Wolter took some photos last weekend of (I presume) the same bunkers that don't seem to have had anything done to them based on the dried out sod edges and weeds in the bunkers.

I'm interested in your process of finishing the edges of these bunkers.  Any photos you can continue to post are greatly appreciated.  I'd love to come see it firsthand, but I'm halfway across the country.

Scott

Scott,

There is not a need to finish the bunkers until the area is really ready to be played -- the seeded play area is growing in and being mowed down but is not ready yet for fairway height -- so we are letting the sod on the bunker edge root as best as possible.  The dried out edges of the sod are going to be cut away in the edging process, when the sod will be cut by hand and the edge of the bunker formed and defined, followed by the bunker sand.

Hope that helps.

Mike

Thanks.  Progress reports via pictures are greatly appreciated.

[Adam Clayman]

Yes, It occurred to me today on the road, you were referring to the Downs and I was understanding Kingsley. Either way, I did half expect the blind bunker to be there.

The reality of lush makes me think snobs have got something. Especially when it's snobbery against the mediocre commercial market. 

[Mike_DeVries]

Thanks.  Progress reports via pictures are greatly appreciated.
[/quote]

Scott,
I will try to get photos out when we trim out the edges of the bunkers.  Get after me if you don't see anything in 6 weeks!
Mike

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