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BCrosby

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2008, 03:06:25 PM »
Tom MacW -

Interesting you ask about Toxaway. Perhaps others will have more details, but I seem to recall that Toxaway was wiped out in a flood in the '20's. The whole area was devasted badly with considerable loss of life. It was and is a well to do summer retreat. A series of dams were built and there is now a "Toxaway" course. I'm not sure if its lineage goes back to the early '20's. I've got some friends up that way. I'll ask around.

Bob

BCrosby

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2008, 03:16:00 PM »
Tom Mac -

Fascinating. I don't think his grandson knows any of that. Terrific discovery. If it's the same Adair, he was socially very prominent and made a lot of money in real estate. The name is still well known around these parts, though not for gca.

Is George Adair the father of Perry Adair, Jones' boyhood friend and early rival?

Bob
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 03:17:54 PM by BCrosby »

Paul Payne

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2008, 03:26:14 PM »
What about Aiken which was mentioned earlier?

It is credited on their website to John Inglis in 1912.

I have always loved that course.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2008, 04:10:58 PM »
Bob
I'm not sure of George's relation to Perry.

Paul
In 1920 Aiken was only 11 holes, 4100 yards. Back then the club was called Highland Park. By 1930 the course was a full 18 but I'm not sure how and when it got there. Inglis also designed Hampton Terrace at Augusta.

John_Cullum

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2008, 04:23:17 PM »
Not to be too TomPaulian on all of you, but when I was a teenager my family had a home at Lake Toxaway and I spent a considerable portion of my summer's there for quite a few years.

As I recall, the story is that the dam broke. It is a pretty deep gorge just below the dam highlighted by Toxaway falls, which are pretty big. So all of the water left out of the lake but the Inn building nor any of the homes around the lake were affected. Nothing in connection with Lake Toxaway was ever built below the dam, although I would surmise people down stream were badly hurt because it is a very large lake.

All of the current course is above lake level except maybe one spot short of the 9th green.

Cornish and Whitten show the golf course as attributed to Reggie Heinisch, but he was the owner of the development back in the 60's and 70's when I was there. My dad knew him as I recall.

The course is constructed over some very difficult terrain, and I can remember there were signs of large scale excavations to level out a fairway in some locations. I would doubt Mr. Heinisch rerouted anything if it wasn't absolutely necessary. The front 9 I would expect to be the original 9, since it is across somewhat less severe ground. I would expect that was the 9 the Rockefellers, Fords, and Armstrongs played on; although one hole was 636 yards long back in the mid seventies, albeit downhill. I just can't imagine anywhere else a golfcourse could have gone that was anywhere near the Inn location. It would be interesting if I could see some sort of aerial, as I am pretty familiar with the lay of the landd up there.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 04:59:32 PM by John_Cullum »
Raynor was a hack

John Goodman

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2008, 04:59:45 PM »
Tom MacW -

George Adair is the grandfather of one of my oldest and best friends. But I didn't know he had much to do with gca other than being a powerful force at EL in the early 20's. What else did you find? I'm very curious. He was an interesting guy in a very interesting and troubled time in Atlanta.

BTW, I'll try to answer your Augusta CC question tonight. I've been on the road.

Bob   

I believe that Perry Adair was George W. Adair's son.

Here's a snippet from the March 1911 American Golfer on George:

"One of the greatest weaknesses of Southern courses is the lack of traps or hazards.  And specially is this true around the greens.  Realizing this, Mr. George W. Adair, president of the Atlanta Athletic Club, began, some two and a half years ago, to make a special study of traps and bunkers and to formulate a system for the Atlanta course.  Many of the best courses in the country were visited and notes carefully made of that which seemed best.  Prominent amateurs were talked to as were many professionals, and the best suggestions made by them stored away for future reference.  Gradually the plan was evolved- the scheme was worked out.  Early last spring he began to put his ideas into visible form.  Each week brought forth a new trap or bunker somewhere.  The easiest and least severe were the first to be placed.  The players kicked - good naturedly, most of them - but they kept on playing and the crop of traps kept coming until late in the fall.  The rested until after the open tournament in December, when he had H. H. Barker, the winner of that event, to suggest and locate such additional traps as he thought were necessary.  There traps have nearly all been put in, and be it said to the credit of President Adair, that there was not a trap added by Barker that he had not planned one to be placed near the same spot.  His idea has been to catch the "nearly-good shot" of the good player - to penalize the player who hooks or slices, either by tripping him or by forcing his next shot to be a hard and accurate one - and to put a premium on direction rather than mere hard hitting."

John_Cullum

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2008, 05:08:12 PM »
In reading on the Greystone Inn at Lake Toxaway website I see a reference to where the old Inn was across the lake from the existing Inn, which would indicate the course was also on the opposite side
Raynor was a hack

John Goodman

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2008, 05:11:08 PM »
Bob,

No...I didn't mean to imply that.  Sorry for how that came across.

I'm just saying that sticking every course that HH Barker worked on in the southeast US, even though none of us have heard of them, is sort of transparent.

No offense or provincialism intended.   

I just don't expect to see "Roebuck" come up on a list of the best southeast courses prior to 1923.   ;)

from the August 1915 American Golfer:

"The course at Roe Buck Springs is one of the hardest and best in the South.  It was planned and built by H. H. Barker and is extremely well trapped around the greens.  It is slightly over sixty-three hundred yards in length and calls for a high class of golf to score well upon it."

It did host two Southern Amateurs by 1923; one of which was won by 15 yr old Bobby Jones.  Which may explain why he tells us in Down the Fairway that "I will always love Roebuck."

It may be something of a rat's ass muni now - albeit a pretty fun one to play - but 'twasn't always so . . .

BCrosby

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2008, 05:28:20 PM »
In reading on the Greystone Inn at Lake Toxaway website I see a reference to where the old Inn was across the lake from the existing Inn, which would indicate the course was also on the opposite side

John - Does that mean the course was or was not lost in the flood?

John_Cullum

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2008, 05:34:14 PM »
I cannot imagine the golf course would have been lost when the dam broke. Everything around the lake is pretty steep, all the water would have gone over the falls, and that is at the opposite end of the lake
Raynor was a hack

KBanks

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2008, 08:37:07 PM »
Tom MacW -

George Adair is the grandfather of one of my oldest and best friends. But I didn't know he had much to do with gca other than being a powerful force at EL in the early 20's. What else did you find? I'm very curious. He was an interesting guy in a very interesting and troubled time in the SE.

BTW, I'll try to answer your Augusta CC question tonight. I've been on the road.

Bob   

Bob
I think I've probably only scratched the surface but what I have found is impressive. Adair oversaw the construction of Druid Hills for Barker. Although Ross is often credited for redesigning East Lake, the plan to completely overhaul the course in 1913 was done by Adair and approved by Barker. Ross was invited later in the year to come up with a bunkering plan. Adair was considered the foremost expert in golf architecture in the south - according to several reports no one had devoted more time to its study. He made at least one trip to England and Scotland with Stewart Maiden, touring many of the best courses. I found two cases where Adair and Maiden were brought in to consult on existing courses: Idle Hour and Nashville.

Tom,

Please check your IM inbox. I'm very interested in your research re Adair and Maiden at Idle Hour.

Ken

bill_k

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2008, 09:43:33 PM »
I spent several years working at a club right down the street and played/looked around Toxaway at least 10-20 times.
There was an original nine hole layout associated with the original Toxaway Inn. I misspoke when I said it had been washed away in the 1912 flood...but the flood pretty much put the Inn out of business-not sure how long the golf course survived after that.
I first became aware of the course when I saw an old scorecard (complete with hole names) in the golf shop at Lake Toxaway CC.  I was intrigued and asked what became of it and was assured that it had no relationship with the course that exists there now and occupied a piece of land rather removed from the old Inn-about 1/2 mile east of the present clubhouse and now underneath a large pond-but this is local heresay-not documented proof.
Reg Heinistch was one of the original developers of the present Lake Toxaway CC in the late 50's/early sixties-which the present course dates from.
Tom, I contacted the Transylvania County Hysterical Society and, while the old Inn and flood are very well documented, I could find no record of the course's existence beyond the scorecard on the wall at LTCC.
I would be most interested in learning more about this Swannanoah CC in Asheville that is mentioned in your list. I grew up in Asheville and had never even heard of it until I saw it mentioned in an old golf magazine that had been placed for decoration in the locker room at Mirabel in Scottsdale a couple of years ago...I have long suspected that some type of course existed in the dim past near The Asheville School's property on the west side of town - I wonder if that could have been it.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2008, 09:46:03 PM »
John Goodman,

That's interesting about Roebuck.   Thanks for sharing.

How close is today's muni to what Barker originally built?

I've looked at the overhead aerial and it doesn't appear as if any of the original land has been compromised....on the other hand it doesn't really appear to have much in the way of obvious interest.

What else am I missing about what was built there?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2008, 10:39:04 PM »
A couple of observations after studying this list.

* Its common knowledge that early southern golf really took off because golfers were looking for a game in the winter, which resulted in colonies like Aiken, Augusta, Jekyll, and places throughout Florida.  But this list really illustrates the true importance of winter golf on southern golf development.

* Two architects dominate this list ~ Donald Ross (12 courses) and HH Barker (9 courses). Barker dominated prior to 1914, Ross afterward. Coincedentally Barker moved back to the UK in 1914.

* Ross really made a killing in Florida during this period. I'm surprised he didn't open an office down there.

* Outside the resorts areas the unquestioned heart of southern golf was Atlanta and George Adair was The Man.

* The South was fortunate to have some very good architects operating in those early years: JD Dunn, Macdonald, Raynor, Ross, Tillinghast, Barker, Park, Thompson and Bendelow.

Pinehurst #2 - 1901 Ross

Pinehurst #1 - 1900 ?, 1913 Ross

Pinehurst #3 - 1907 Ross, 1910 Ross

Pinehurst #4 - 1912 Ross, 1919 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1907 Bendelow, 1913 Adair/Barker/Ross

Belleair #1 - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, 1908 L.Auchtolonie, 1915 Ross

The Homestead - 1901 ?, 1913 Ross

St. Petersburgh (Jungle CC ) - 1916 Tillinghast

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker/Adair

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

Palm Beach - 1914 Barker, 1917 Ross 

Miami Beach - 1916 W.Park II

Memphis - 1905 D.Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Nashville - 1902 ?

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 W.Park II

CC of Virginia (Westhampton) - 1909 Barker

Capital City (Brookhaven) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1893 Leeds?

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/G.Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1911 N.Thompson, 1914 Barker

Mecklenburg (Charlotte CC) - 1910?

Ormond Beach - 1903?, 1910 G.Merritt

CC of Augusta (Lake course) - 1910 D.Ogilvie

CC of Augusta (Hill course) - 1913 D.Ogilvie

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1909 J.Inglis

Camden - 1899 ?, 1912 J.Norton - replaced in 1923 by Travis

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow

Howey - 1917 G.O'Neil

CC of Mobile - 1916 Ross

Idle Hour/Log Cabin (Macon) - 1913 Barker

Carolina (Raleigh) - 1911 ?

Southern Pines - 1907 Peacock

Florida GC (Jacksonville) - 1913 J.Mitchell

Orlando CC - 1910 ?, 1918 Ross

Ft. Myers - 1918 Ross

« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 10:56:02 PM by Tom MacWood »

John_Cullum

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #114 on: June 25, 2008, 12:09:34 PM »
Through another thread, we have just learned of Winter Park CC, designed in 1900 by J.D. Dunn, but not built until 1910 by CH Morse, presumably using Dunn's plans
Raynor was a hack

BCrosby

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #115 on: June 25, 2008, 05:05:06 PM »
As some of you know, Brookhaven was plowed up last year. Bob Cupp is redoing it completely. There will be nothing left of the old course, one that had some very good holes and other holes that ranged from flukey to fun to not very good. To give a flavor of the new Cupp course, a significant number of holes will be tucked hard against the lake. Barker's routing had no holes on the lake.

I thought the Capital City Club decision was a bad one, for architectural and other reasons. Who knows, the result might have been different if more had been known about Barker.  But no constituency ever developed within the club for saving even some of the good holes on the old course. I thought it was a shame.

Bob

SPDB

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2008, 05:14:54 PM »
What was the "East Coast Golf Club" I read a report of a Vardon/Findlay match taking place there around the turn of the century. It seems that it had under its "management" the links at St. Augustine, Ormond, Palm Beach, Miami and Nassau.

John_Cullum

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2008, 05:27:39 PM »
I did not know Brookhaven had been put asunder.

Brookhaven was fatally flawed in my opinion because of the dual teeshot requirement at the 12th and 13th
Raynor was a hack

Mike_Cirba

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2008, 05:33:04 PM »
Tom

Which of Barker's designs were open by June 1910, when he submitted a proposed routing to the development company who were negotiating with MCC?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2008, 08:18:55 PM »
Bob
I played Druid Hills last year and Cupp had gotten his hands on that course as well, sadly, although my sense was there was a lot of the original course still around.

Mike
In the south or nationally? Nationally, courses Barker designed or redesigned that opened in 1909-1910 (that I know of today) would be CC of Viriginia, Waverly, Spokane, Newport, Columbia, Rumson, Skokie and Springhaven. I'm certain some of these courses opened before May and some after May. Arguably his most famous design was under construction in 1910 ~ Mayfield. Mayfield's moto was "beat Myopia."

Speaking of Barker when Mecklenberg CC ran into a dispute with the landowner of their existing course in 1912, they asked Barker to design a new course on a site at Myers Park, which he did. However the dispute was settled and the course was never built.


John Goodman

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2008, 10:58:16 PM »
John Goodman,

That's interesting about Roebuck.   Thanks for sharing.

How close is today's muni to what Barker originally built?

I've looked at the overhead aerial and it doesn't appear as if any of the original land has been compromised....on the other hand it doesn't really appear to have much in the way of obvious interest.

What else am I missing about what was built there?

I don't know, Mike, but am going to do some research on what was originally built out there.  I can tell you what's there now:  I think someone used some of the hillier parts of the property effectively (I am thinking of holes 3, 5 - 7, 11 and 12), there is one interesting blind tee shot (#6), all but one of the short par 4s is doglegged, and there is probably more movement in the greens than you would expect to find at a place that charges you $12 to play after 2:00.  The course is also very walkable, somewhat snakily routed, and makes use on probably six holes of the stream that runs through the property.  The conditioning of the course is not very good, though, nor is the neighborhood (an irony given the exclusive nature of the initial development).  There is no particular reason to go see Roebuck, unless you just want to visit the site of one of the two or three oldest courses in the state.  If you fly into Birmingham on any route from the east (i.e., Atlanta or Charlotte), you fly right over top of it a minute or so before you land.

John

BCrosby

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2008, 09:09:45 AM »
Tom -

I played Druid Hills last fall for the first time in several years. One of Cupp's new holes there, the 15th, is a dramatically uphill short par 4 to a small semi-blind, shallow green that is very hard to hold. The uphill part was completely man-made. Wild fw contours were built that don't tie into any landforms I could see. The humps and swales funneled most tee balls into a single, narrow patch that was heavily pock-marked with divots. It was the single worst hole I played last year, and is currently leading the pack for my worst hole of the decade.

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2008, 09:56:02 AM »
Mike
In the south or nationally? Nationally, courses Barker designed or redesigned that opened in 1909-1910 (that I know of today) would be CC of Viriginia, Waverly, Spokane, Newport, Columbia, Rumson, Skokie and Springhaven. I'm certain some of these courses opened before May and some after May. Arguably his most famous design was under construction in 1910 ~ Mayfield. Mayfield's moto was "beat Myopia."


Tom,

Thanks for the information.   I don't want to take this thread too far off-track, but what I'm hoping to better understand is exactly how well known Barker might have been as an architect by June 1910, which courses would have made his reputation at that point, and possibly why his proposed routing was seemingly not considered.   

As you know, some of these dates are tricky, because a design might be done in one year and the actual course didn't open until 2-3 years later.   So, in this case, I'm trying to see what he actually had built "on the ground" that was open for play by that date.

Of the courses you listed, I understand that Waverly had an existing course from 1896, so I'm assuming it was a re-do, and Spokane didn't purchase their land until 1910 so I'm assuming these two courses didn't much figure into the thinking of anyone at MCC.

In New Jersey, Barker did the routing for Arcola in 1909, but the course didn't open until 1911.   In the case of Rumson, this is another perplexing one, because an existing course was being played in 1910 (formerly Seabright CC), and Barker became the pro there in April 1911, after apparently leaving Garden City.    It's difficult to determine who did what when there.

I'm guessing Skokie was also a re-do, as a nine-hole Bendelow course existed in 1904, and I don't believe it became 18 holes until Ross came in the teens.   Am I understanding that evolution correctly, or did Barker have a larger role?

Two I haven't been able to determine the timeframe on are his work at CC of Virginia (where i know he was the professional before leaving this country in 1915), and Newport, where again a nine holer existed (by Willie David) previously, and the standard story is that Ross then turned that into 18 later.   Any info you can provide on those would be helpful.

The one course I think might have an MCC connection is Springhaven.   In early 1910 it was reported that Barker had been consulting with the club and had recommended the addition of fifty bunkers to the course, which the club said they would build as soon as weather and logistics permitted.   

Still and all, do you think it would be fair to say that Barker was probably better known for his playing abilities and the fact he was the pro at the famous Garden City club at this point (June 1910)  than for any architectural achievements, most of which came later in the south?

Thanks...this is indeed interesting to explore, and I had no idea previously that he was so prolific.   I'm just trying to determine the actual timeframe of his achievements and how that related to how the MCC Committee might have viewed him at the time.


Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2008, 10:16:42 AM »
Mike
I'm not interested in turning this thread into another Merion thread.

Bob
I agree with you. That Cupp hole has to go down as one of the worst in modern history.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Southern US 1920 New
« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2008, 10:29:23 AM »
Tom,

I think it's fundamental to ALL of our discussions of US golf architectural history to accurately determine;

1) How many courses built before NGLA opened were architecturally worthy or renowned as such.  I contend that was very, very few.

and

2) How many "professionals" and other "experts" were actually known to be golf course architects by 1910, or whether they were known more as top amateurs, foreign-born professionals, and dabblers into all things golf from agronomy to clubmaking to their golfing contemporaries throughout the country at that time.   I contend the latter.

When it's stated that;

"According to Tom MacWood, Barkerís other designs include Country Club of Virginia (Westhampton Course,) Waverly Country Club in Oregon, Spokane Country Club, Rumson Country Club, Columbia Country Club (1910), a remodel of Detroit Country Club, Mayfield Country Club, Country Club of Asheville (NC), a remodel of East Lake Country Club, Youngstown Country Club, Raritan Valley, Arcola, Brookhaven, Druid Hills (Ga), Winnetka (with H.S. Colt,) Roebuck Country Club, a remodel of Newport Country Club, Palm Beach Country Club, Westhampton (Long Island, with Seth Raynor.)   He also had reportedly planned or remodeled three courses in or near Philadelphia. "

I think it's important to our accurate historical understanding of events to determine accurately when all of this actually took place, because courses like Columbia didn't open until 1911.

I think this is the crux of where we disagree on quite a few matters.   If you wish to blow me off here, that's ok too and I understand.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 10:57:31 AM by MikeCirba »

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