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Thomas MacWood

John Sutherland and the NGLA
« on: September 04, 2008, 07:18:38 AM »
I was recently looking at the NGLA perspectus (written by CBM) and notice some names I had not recognized before.

"We have also been helped by some the most eminent men in the game of golf abroad, who have taken a most friendly interest in the undertaking, and I have to thank among these Mr. Horace G. Hutchinson, Mr. John L. Low, Mr. Harold H. Hilton, Mr. J. Sutherland, Mr. W.T. Linskill, the Messrs Walter and Charles Whigham, Mr. Patrick Murray, Mr. Alexander MacFee, and the late Mr. C.H.S. Everard, for the maps, photographs and suggestions which they have given us."

The name that stood out to me was John Sutherland of Dornoch. I don't recall his name (or Dornoch) being mentioned before in relation to Macdonald or the NGLA. I'm wondering if Macdonald travelled to Dornoch, and if so what influence it may have had upon him or the National. I do know Hutchinson stopped at Dornoch on Lord Brassey's yacht before going to America in 1910. That is kind of interesting in itself. Sutherland is one of the more under appreciated figures in golf architecture history (see the In My Opinion essay on The Early Golf Architects).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:58:39 PM by Tom MacWood »

David_Tepper

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Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 11:58:47 AM »
For those who may not know, John Suthetland was the Club Secretary at Royal Dornoch from 1882 (before it even was a Royal) until 1935.  He had a major hand in shaping the course for the modern era, pretty much as it is today.

I do not know any connection between between him and the NGLA.  There is certainly a major connection between Sutherland/Royal Dornoch and Donald Ross, who was born in Dornoch at worked at the club there for a number of years.

 

Rich Goodale

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2008, 12:12:27 PM »
If Macdonald did proper due diligence in developing NGLA he would have consulted Sutherland and visited Dornoch, but this is the first time I've seen any connection or reference.  It's certainly hard to see any of Dornoch on the ground at NGLA.

TEPaul

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 12:24:10 PM »
"I'm wondering if Macdonald travelled to Dornoch, and if so what influence it may have had upon him or the National."


Mr. MacWood:

Do you think perhaps John Sutherland routed, designed or at least was the primary creative force behind NGLA? Perhaps you need to investigate if this means Sutherland has been minimized or denigrated and Macdonald has been glorified into "legendary" status for NGLA he does not really deserve! ;)

TEPaul

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 12:31:27 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

The above was intended to be humorously ironical but the following is not.

I've heard of a few of those names mentioned in your initial post but not all of them. There really would be something very interesting to determine about them, though, particularly since they were all mentioned in this context by Macdonald himself.


The question is, were they, or did Macdonald himself consider them to be basically of the gentleman so-called "amateur/sportsman" type or were any of them from that group that may be referred to as Scottish pro/clubmaker/greenkeeper/golf instructor/architect type who worked in golf for a living?

I'm quite sure you may be able to imagine why I ask that.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 12:51:52 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Your C.H.S. Everard may've been H.S.C. Everhard. Linkskill was probably William T. Linkskill, the dean of the Guild, as referred to in Macdonald's book. He was at one time the secretary of the Cambridge University golf club, extremely interested in golf and apparently an excellent putter as Hutchinson mentioned in his "Badminton."

The Alexander Macfee may've been A.M Macfie, also mentioned by Hutchinson in "Badminton" as an excellent putter.

All of those men mentioned in your initial post were that type Macdonald considered to be "gentlemen amateur" golfers, most who he knew and played with when he was over there probably beginning as early as college.

I think most of us know who Harold Hilton was----star G.B. amater champion.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:00:02 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 01:06:28 PM »
Rich
I don't believe any of Dornoch's holes made the best hole discusion that was the source for a lot of Macdonald's models. Old pictures I've seen of Dornoch showed some inpressive bunkers with sleepers, perhaps the original bunker fronting the Short hole or someother bunker, although Brancaster was known for its sleepers as well. Sutherland was the one of the foremost experts in argonomy in the UK, that is likely what he offered.

TEPaul

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 01:18:48 PM »
Macdonald's "Short" at NGLA had "sleepers" all across the front of it originally! Certainly a look and method he observed abroad but certainly not something anyone with a modicum of commonsense or honesty would call a "natural" look. Very much the opposite, in fact----eg about as manufactured as one could get with a series of vertical boards. The function was clear and obvious but the look was certainly suspect to the coming tendency to more of a natural look in architecture.

Of course, Macdonald took those "sleepers" out that he originally had on the front of NGLA's "Short".

I wonder if at some point around the late teens Hugh Wilson and his committee began to feel sorry for him and went back up to NGLA and gave Charlie some advice and suggestions of their own on the "principles" of the new and coming look and style of real naturalism in American architecture.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:21:54 PM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 01:34:46 PM »
Tom MacW

As I remember, when Hutchinson stopped off at Dornoch in 1910 he was glowing in his praise of the links.  He also featured the course in his pre-1900 book.  The fact that you haven't seen any pretty pictures of the place is irrelevant.  Taylor, Holderness and others though highly enough of the place to spend summers there at the time that CBM was planning NGLA.  My guess is that Charlie just couldn't be bothered to venture outside of London, Edinburgh and their environs.  As far as I know he also never made it to Ireland.  For a guy in the securities business, it was pretty poor due diligence.

rich

Tom_Doak

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Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 02:01:52 PM »
Tom Mac:

I am pretty sure you are correct that none of the holes at Dornoch were included in the "Best Hole Discussion" prior to the building of National.

I've also never seen Macdonald make any reference to any particular hole at Dornoch.  I don't think he ever went up there.

I'm surprised to find the reference to John Sutherland but I would guess that he's just another good golfer Macdonald had gotten to know in his years overseas, instead of because of a specific connection to Dornoch.  Rich would know better than me whether Sutherland was a regular attendee at the Amateur or if he spent time in St. Andrews when Macdonald did.


TEPaul

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 02:07:58 PM »
"My guess is that Charlie just couldn't be bothered to venture outside of London, Edinburgh and their environs.  As far as I know he also never made it to Ireland. "


Rich:

I don't know---I sure never got that impression of him. Charlie seemed like a guy who definitely made all the necessary "treks" for golf, no matter where it was.

I think the thing about Charlie that may be throwing you off that way is he never exactly talked about holes and such that he personally liked----the ones he latched onto were the ones that were derived from consensus opinion. In that particular way he was a pretty clever marketer.

The only hole I've ever heard that Charlie mentiond he wanted to copy the basic concept of because he liked it so much was the 16th at Littlestone----eg the hole that was the prototype for his beloved "Channel" hole at Lido!

Rich Goodale

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 02:11:26 PM »
Tom Mac:

I am pretty sure you are correct that none of the holes at Dornoch were included in the "Best Hole Discussion" prior to the building of National.

I've also never seen Macdonald make any reference to any particular hole at Dornoch.  I don't think he ever went up there.

I'm surprised to find the reference to John Sutherland but I would guess that he's just another good golfer Macdonald had gotten to know in his years overseas, instead of because of a specific connection to Dornoch.  Rich would know better than me whether Sutherland was a regular attendee at the Amateur or if he spent time in St. Andrews when Macdonald did.



Tom

Sutherland was a regular competitor at the Amateur.  In 1909 he beat not only Harold Hilton but also Harry Colt on his way to the 5th round.  He also wrote for Golf Illustrated and the London Daily News, starting in 1902.  In those days the club alternated its annual dinner-dance between Dornoch and London.  He would have been well-kent in the golfing circles of the day.

Rich

PS--do you or anybody know if Macdonald ever played in the British Amateur and if so how well did he do?  From "Scotland's Gift" it seems he was pretty much a hacker when he played at St. Andrews in the mid 1870's.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 02:20:11 PM by Richard Farnsworth Goodale »

Thomas MacWood

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 02:32:11 PM »
Tom MacW

As I remember, when Hutchinson stopped off at Dornoch in 1910 he was glowing in his praise of the links.  He also featured the course in his pre-1900 book.  The fact that you haven't seen any pretty pictures of the place is irrelevant.  Taylor, Holderness and others though highly enough of the place to spend summers there at the time that CBM was planning NGLA.  My guess is that Charlie just couldn't be bothered to venture outside of London, Edinburgh and their environs.  As far as I know he also never made it to Ireland.  For a guy in the securities business, it was pretty poor due diligence.

rich

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? Where did I write or even suggest I hadn't seen any pretty pictures of the place?

HH Hilton was not only a top amateur, he was also an authority on golf architecture who wrote about the subject often. He contributed a chapter on laying out golf courses in HGH's Golf Greens and Green-Keeping. Tommy Linskill was Mr. Cambridge as TE related. He was the guy who intitiated the Oxford v Cambridge golf match and had a big influence on Low, Colt and Darwin. He also delved a little into golf architecture. Walter and Charles Whigham were HJ Whigham's brothers, originally of Prestwick. They were involved in banking.  Patrick Murray was fine amateur and member of the R&A. AF MacFee won the first British Am, a contemporary of Hutchinson and member of the R&A. HSC Everard was an iconic figure at St. Andrews and a authority of the history of the game. Most of these guys were associated with R&A, either that or regular competitors in the British Am.


Thomas MacWood

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 02:36:35 PM »
Here is a brief profile I came up with on Sutherland:

John Sutherland was born in 1864 the son of a Dornoch shoemaker. He began playing golf at 14 and was admitted to the club three years later, making scratch at once. Sutherland was appointed secretary in 1883 - a position he held for an amazing 58 years. Sutherland first competed in the Amateur Championship in 1891 at St. Andrews, and was a consistent attendant for the next 20 years. If there had been a prize for distance traveled most years he would have won it.

 No one knows precisely when golf began at Dornoch, records indicate the game had been played there as far back as 1630. We do know the ‘modern’ game came to Dornoch in the 1870s with a nine-hole golf course. The Dornoch Golf Club was officially founded in 1877. In 1886 Old Tom Morris was engaged to layout a proper golf course, staking out a new nine thus extending the course to 18 holes. Sutherland carried out this work over the next few years. Old Tom deserves credit for getting things started but without question Dornoch was Sutherland’s long term project. Throughout his tenure he continually improved the courses including a major redesign in 1904, which included extending the ladies course to 18 holes. 
 
In 1902 Golf Illustrated wrote of Sutherland: “He has given great service in laying out and altering, not only his own green but many of those in the neighbourhood.” Sutherland was invited in 1891 by the newly formed Brora Golf Club to layout a nine-hole golf course. He returned to Brora in 1902 and extended the links to 18 holes. That same year he laid out Skibo a private course for none other than Andrew Carnegie. In addition to Carnegie’s private course Sutherland designed and built private golf courses for the Duke of Portland at Lanfwell, the Duke of Sutherland at Dunrobin and Mr. Eric Chaplin at Stoer.
 
Sutherland taught the game to future professionals Donald Ross, Alec Morrison and Tom Grant, and this quote from The Scotsman may indicate which pupil he favored, “John Sutherland I know was proud of the Dornoch boys who carried the fame of his native town across the Atlantic.”  One wonders what impact he may have had upon Ross the golf architect. As a young man Ross was both an apprentice to a building contractor and one of the best amateur golfers in the region. Members of the club urged him to go to St.Andrews to learn club-making, however his family wanted him to continue in the trade of carpentry. When the club promised to make him their professional, his parents consented and he was off to St. Andrews and Forgan’s golf shop for a brief apprenticeship. From 1893 to 1899 Ross was Dornoch’s first professional and presumably worked closely with Sutherland, who acted as the club’s secretary and greenkeeper (Sutherland was a self-taught expert in agronomy whose advice was sought throughout the UK). It is difficult to say to what extent Sutherland influenced Ross but it appears at the very least he laid his foundation.
 
In addition to his club responsibilities, John Sutherland was the Town Clerk, and beyond his public duties he advised Lord Rothermore and WT Tyser of Gordonbush on financial matters. He was also a successful Estate Agent.  Sutherland even found time to write the golf notes for The Daily News, and contributed several articles to Golf Illustrated. Through his writing Sutherland was largely responsible for publicizing this islolated gem, and as a result the course attracted an impressive list of pilgrims including the Newton, Joyce and Roger Wethered, John Low, JH Taylor, Ernest Holderness and others. John Sutherland died suddenly at his home Golf View in 1941.

Tom_Doak

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Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 04:17:53 PM »
Rich G:

To the best of my knowledge, CBM never played in the Amateur Championship.  I don't know how seriously he would have been taken as a golfer by the best in Scotland and England even after his US Amateur triumph ... but I think when he was back over there at the turn of the century he probably had the connections to hang out with the elite of the game.

Thomas MacWood

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 06:39:45 PM »
Macdonald played in the 1906 Amateur at Hoylake along with Hutchinson, Colt, Guy Campbell, Alison, Hilton and Fowler. For whatever reason Sutherland was not entered. CBM lost in the second round to a golfer from Sunningdale who was the eventual runner-up. The odd thing about this championship three of the final four golfers came from Sunningdale, one of whom was Colt. That must have opened some eyes, that an inland course had three golfers in the semi-finals, especially considering Ball and Hilton, both from Hoylake, were in the field.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 06:41:30 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 07:03:30 PM »
Tom M:  Thanks for the correction.  I don't remember that tidbit from "Scotland's Gift:  Golf", but perhaps Macdonald did not want to dwell on it.

JMorgan

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Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 08:01:57 PM »
Tom, I know that Emmet was intimately familiar with Dornoch and knew Sutherland so he may have facilitated a connection with CBM, as well. 

Thomas MacWood

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2008, 12:02:59 AM »
JM
I didn't know that. That is very interesting. As you know Emmet was heavily involved in the NGLA project.

I'd like to learn more about the Emmet-Sutherland connection.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 07:13:46 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jim Nugent

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 03:06:42 AM »
I've heard that CBM got the original first US Amateur declared null and void, and then started another first US Am, which he won.  Can anyone tell me what happened? 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 06:20:18 AM »
TEPaul,

MacDonald's use of sleepers may more likely have stemmed from his membership at GCGC where sleepers were employed.

Rich Goodale

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 07:48:14 AM »
Looking at old pictures of sleepers and knowing about what many of those holes (#10 Troon, old #6 Dornoch, etc.) look like today, it seems obvious to me that they were used in the early 20th century to stabilse immature dunes and not as an architectural feature per se.


Was CBM the first person to use them where they were not needed (structurally) or was it Pete Dye?

Rich Goodale

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 08:48:34 AM »
Tom, I know that Emmet was intimately familiar with Dornoch and knew Sutherland so he may have facilitated a connection with CBM, as well. 

JMorgan

This is the first time I have heard Emmet and Dornoch mentioned in the same breath.  Dev is certainly not part of any Dronoch history, formal or informal, of which I am aware.  Could you please elaborate?

Thanks.

Rich

TEPaul

Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 01:17:36 PM »
"TEPaul,
MacDonald's use of sleepers may more likely have stemmed from his membership at GCGC where sleepers were employed."


Pat:

I would say Emmet's (GCGC) and Macdonald's (NGLA) use of sleepers very much more likely came from their familiarity with them on 19th century Scottish courses. Some of us today seem to be under the impression that everything about the old Scottish courses was the ultimate look of naturalism. Nothing could be further from the truth and the common use of sleepers on the 19th and early 20th century Scottish courses is proof postive of that fact. Obviously practicality took precedence over a naturalistic aesthetic look for the thrifty and practical Scots.

The most interesting thing of all, though, with the old look and idea of sleepers was that it was picked up again in the 1960s and on by one of our most prominent American architects!  ;)

JMorgan

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Re: John Sutherland and the NGLA New
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 08:22:34 PM »
Tom, I know that Emmet was intimately familiar with Dornoch and knew Sutherland so he may have facilitated a connection with CBM, as well. 

JMorgan

This is the first time I have heard Emmet and Dornoch mentioned in the same breath.  Dev is certainly not part of any Dronoch history, formal or informal, of which I am aware.  Could you please elaborate?

Thanks.

Rich

Rich, though not a part of any architectural history, Emmet was intimately acquainted with many of the English, Irish, and Scottish links (and their officers and keepers), including Sandwich, Deal, Prestwick, North Berwick, Dornoch, Portmarnock, TOC, and so on.  Also, he spent many late springs and early summers attending tournaments throughout Scotland and England -- England v. Scotland Amateur and Pro, St. George's Vase, the Open ... .  Macdonald no doubt knew this when he asked Emmet to take measurements for NGLA.  (By this time, Emmet had known Sutherland for quite some time.)

Emmet's letters also show how frequently he traveled from course to course, and how well he understood the difference between a Garden City and Sandwich, for instance.  He wrote to Travis from Ireland before the latter's first visit to any British links and win at R. St. George's, "They don't begin to know how good you are over here, which will be greatly in your favour ... Get over as early as possible. That links [Sandwich] wants a lot of knowing. The greens are not large, and most of them must be approached from a short distance with a mashie or iron, not a putter." 

« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 09:06:44 PM by JMorgan »

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