[Matt_Ward]

Corey:

The mentioning of Atlantic is post course that followed the work of Rees Jones. A more "new & improved" version if you will.


Tommy W:

Good mentioning of Laurel Links -- yes, I have played it.

I would likely add that to my listing and bump one of the other courses out. Kelly Blake Moran did a marvelous job in contouring the greens -- although I am not a fan in having housing stuck right dab center in the property.

The course offers a vexing challenge on many of the holes and you need to properly position one's shots in order to have even a remote shot on the greens.

It's amazing how the east end of the Island has really jumped up in quality beyond the big three that existed by themselves for so many years in Southampton.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Jeff,

I saw some of the equipment at QR while driving down the Hutch over the winter (when you can steal a look) and wondered what was happening.

Was most of the work done by Gil tree removal and restoration, or was their any major re-design at all? 

A glimpse of Quaker Ridge is almost always worth rear ending someone.

Thanks,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The reason I asked is that you specifically refer to playing courses from the "Tips" as not being fun. "I routinely play two 7,200+ Florida courses from the tips, so I'm not adverse to playing long courses, but, in truth, the new lengths are beyond my ability and more importantly...

I used to have no trouble playing ANGC from the tips. However, since the tips have been moved back, they're now beyond both thresholds, they're simply to long for me... The same can be said of Winged Foot, Bethpage and other courses from the tips..."

Yet when refering to Maidstone you say that it is the "sportiness" of the course that gives you pleasure.

My question then is do you define a course' "sportiness" based upon it's length?

No, but, it's a big factor.[/color]

For example, can't you simply play ANGC from the regular members tees and find a golf course that really isn't that much longer than Maidstone?

Yes, ANGC from the Member's tees is quite sporty.
From the tips its excessive.[/color]

I'm not picking on you, but your comments seem to imply that a course should be routinely played from the "tips"

That's what you infered, it wasn't what I was implying.
I routinely play courses from the tips, however, courses that have been lengthened to accomodate PGA Tour Professionals are usually well beyond two thresholds, my ability to play them and enjoy them on a daily basis. [/color]

and I don't really think that is what you mean and would love if you would clarify...  Winged Foot and the Black as not being fun

They're simply too long from the tips and not enjoyable on a daily basis.[/color]
 

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more unique aspects in re-assessing courses in the greater NYC area is the capacity for many people to avoid placing the "glass ceiling" on the idea that new courses can indeed make major breakthroughs and that previous "great" courses can also stumble for inaction and likely inertia.

The NYC metro area has seen the rise of a number of clubs that have taken the considerable time, effort and expense to reinvigorate themselves. That's a good thing because the bar for outstanding golf in the area has always been high.

I'll be posting a public listing -- likely only a top 25. The real unique aspect of the overall top 50 is that despite making major strides -- public golf has only one representative in the listing with Bethpage Black. Candidly, I am not thrilled that one of my previous favorite courses to play in BB has simply gone way overboard in the prusuit of distance and outright difficulty.

[Bill Brightly]

The list is very solid and I have to work hard to get Hackensack in the top 50. (It belongs there..but I aint naming the ones I would take out: too many member guest possibilities D.)

Matt, (I cant seem to be able to send you a private message) come play HGC and see what you think of our changes. More to follow as we return to our Banks roots! You will have it ahead of Forsgate soon enough...

[Mike Policano]

Bill, I played Hackensack last week. It was in great condition as always. I love the changes to the course. I like how the third green was extended back to the tee. Was it 30 yards? Was this green a biraittz originally? I like the tree work on 16. Gives the hole a great look and makes it look more different than 8. Good tree work on 11 also. I always enjoy the greens at HGC.

Who did the work and what's next?

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Appreciate your take on Hackensack.

I also can understand your concerns for future invites to different clubs and their various member guest events. Unfortunately, the desire for "self interest" weighs too heavily on the minds of many people and often prevents them from being utterly candid in such a public forum.

Too often the discussion of ratings can make the skin boil for people who don't see the name of their respective club listed but many times it is these same people who may not have played all or nearly all of the candidates that have been selected, or even more importantly, seen what has happened at these respective layouts (see Forsgate as just one great example) in the last season or so as major improvements have happened.

Far too often a number of big name clubs that have always been at the top of any listing make the incorrect assumption that they shall always be listed at the top of the pecking order. I don't honor sacred cows simply because they are sacred cows and there's far too much kneeling in front of them by a good number of people -- plenty of whom are on GCA and many which are pursuing the desire to play them and will grovel in the pursuit of their objective.

Unfortunately, candor is often tempered by self interest and this site seems to be infected with that narrow-minded but clearly important objective to those who apply such weight to it.

Bill, one other thing -- I don't rate on what might be -- if work is indeed starting or planned to happen. I rate on what has been COMPLETED. That's a huge difference in my book.

Forsgate has done that work and it's there for people to see. Ditto the others I've mentioned. That's not to say Hackensack should not be commended for what they have done thus far and what additional work is being contemplated.

You are right -- it's time to play Hackensack again. Maybe we can hook up together for such a purpose. I have great respect for the work of Banks, as my list demonstrates, and the Oradell-based club does have a number of fascinating examples of his work.

One last thing Bill -- when you say "it (Hackensack) ahead of Forsgate son enough" that's quite a promise on your part because for the layout to be that far ahead it will need to be among some very elite company. We shall see ...

p.s. If you click on the icon under a poster's name I believe that will take you to the private message section.



 

[Bill Brightly]

Mike,

Thanks for your comments. The tree work has been ongoing for about 6 years. Holes 11 and 15 and 16 were cleaned up recently. We are doing the work in house and Rees Jones is the arch. Unlike some of his work on open-type courses, his task here was to restore in Banks' style. I know Rees takes a hit or two here, but I think people will be pleasantly surprised.

Hole 3 was most certainly a Biarritz! We are returning the front section to green height, and the front bunkers will be restored shortly, I hope! We found a GREAT old picture taken in the 30's, ask to see next time you are there. It shows the bunkers hooking all the way around the front "corners", so the restoiration is easy to follow.

When we restore 18, it will be an awesome Road Hole, arguably one of the best finishing holes in the Met area.

Did you try to fly the new (angled) bunkers on 1 and 10???


Matt,

I cant argue with you about Forsgate, it has many more true Banks features. Our course has really changed over the years. Forsgate does not compare condition-wise, but architecturally, I  understand your ranking.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

My point on #1 and #10 at Hackensack is that you have essentially the same "type" of hole for both beginnings to each side. I see that as a potential weakness. Be curious to your take.

On the tree front that's very positive and kudos to the club indeed.

The issue with Hackensack is if there is anything beyond merely very good in the overall design. At Forsgate I can name any number of aspects Banks provided there and they have been recently improved even further. On the conditioning front I have to say that in years past you were right -- but Forsgate now is much improved on that side of the equation now.

[Bill Brightly]

Matt,

I agree that the first and 10th holes are similar short par 5's. But did you know that the first hole was designed as a par 4? The second hole was a par 5, designed with cross bunkers. The cross bunkers were never built. And at some point the irrigation pond was extended in front of the second tee, so they must have decided to shorten #2 (the carry over the pond would have been too long) and lengthen Hole 1 to a par 5.

You can't blame Banks...but I'll show you a 1960 plan of what William Gordon did...

[Jeff Loh]

Am i the only one that thinks Tamarack is better than at least five of the courses on the list?
Very cool Banks with some Silva polish. Like to hear others' thoughts.......
As Pat M would say, much more "sporty" and in my mind much more interesting than Stanwich, for example.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff Loh:

It's always easy to say "X" course is better than five other courses and then not providing the names of the five other courses you mentioned.

Please do tell and also add the "why" rationale if you can.

I played Tamarack -- as recently as last year -- and it's a fine Banks layout. Is it better than Stanwich?

Please let me know how you see Tamarack fitting into the top course list for Connecticut. I don't see it being ahead of CC of Fairfield, Wee Burn, Yale or Stanwich.

Thanks ...

[Jeff Loh]

Matt
"better" is subjective but i would rather play Tamarack than Stanwich. Stanwich doesn't intimidate me; it just bores me. its in great shape all the time. kudos there. other than that i find it a slog.
cc of fairfield has a dramatic setting. is the land the holes are on that good? you obviously like it because you listed it twice.
No Bethpage Red??
The Red and Tamarack are both "better" than Wee Burn.
Old Oaks but no Century? Seems a little backward to me.
Never seen Atlantic but don't hear a lot of good things about it.
Hudson National? Again--some great vistas but is the golf that good?
So Tamarack in CT--behind Yale but ahead of Wee Burn and Stanwich. Top 3. Worst case Top 5. Still pretty good. And the Round Hill "ommision" is still nagging me.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Thanks.

No doubt people base their choices on where they prefer to play. Clearly, the application of the word "great" is also subjective too.

I don't doubt Stanwich can be a slog for those who see the Gordon design as limited. I am not a huge fan but still see it a bit ahead of Tamrack.

When you say no Bethpage Red -- I have to say this -- the NY metro area is blessed with the deepest array of private clubs likely anywhere. Public golf has certainly elevated itself in so many ways but only Bethpage Black can crack that elite grouping in my mind. The Red has plenty of fine holes but there are other metro public courses I would place ahead of it -- Ballyowen in Jersey being one of them.

Can't say the last time you played Wee Burn but the improvements there from the last time I played there was quite startling and interesting to see.

Century too is a fine course but Old Oaks has the more compelling property and overall routing, in my mind. No doubt it's possible one can like either a bit more but the other course is still a fine choice.

You downplay Atlantic simply from the comments of others. For Hudson National you don't say if you played it or simply base comments from others or from simply touring the property. I am not saying TF did a superlative job that would place it among his alltime best but the golf is not as bad as so many others have suggested.

In sum, we are talking about the extreme rear of the line for any top 50 choices and no doubt those towards the end of the line can be replaced with a few others of note. However, many people who chime in and say "X" course is better -- have not played the others -- in recent times -- that have earned the position I have provided them. Seawane is one that comes quickly to mind. There are others.

Jeff, you obviously relish the Banks connection. Have you ever played Whippoorwill or Forsgate? If you have have played either or both -- would you place either of them behind Tamarack. And if you do -- I have to ask you straight up are you member of Tamarack because membership in any club does have a tendency to influence one's assessment. If you are not a member and you have not played either of the two Banks courses I just mentioned -- let me also throw into the picture the #4 nine at Montclair GC in West Orange, NJ -- then you need to see them before trumpeting Tamarack to the level you are suggesting.

Jeff, my mentioning of CC of Fairfield twice was a typo on my part and has been corrected. I think the property there and the totality of the holes (not all are dynamic so I do agree with you on that point) is quite good and much fun to play even the total length is not that long.

You say the omission of Round Hill is "still nagging me" and I don't doubt there will be close calls. I would politely suggest that people post their entire listing because cherry picking courses to be off and on doesn't give the fullest of pictures on how they would place courses.

Kudos to the work done at Tamarack. Given my love for Banks you have peaked my interest in seeing it again. Thanks for mentioning it. 

[Jeff Loh]

Matt --  thanks for the educated reply. sorry if i was a bit caustic..no harm meant. atlantic no play....just from what i've heard. got lucky with hudson national. a six pack of bud light got me on for 18 holes for about a year and a half every monday. dont get me wrong...good golf course but how do i say it. just leaves me a little "cold". perhaps  i should have said it earlier....westchester west is the most under rated track in the met area. thanks for putting it in the first ten where i think it belongs. perhaps we are closer in philosophy than we know.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Perhaps a more telling list, and one with more relevance for most on this board, would be if Mr. Loh would list the 50 clubs in the Metro area where access is only a six-pack of Schlitz away.

[Dean Paolucci]

Hamilton - Glad to see you posting again.  I enjoy your perspective on many fronts.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Glad you and I are on the same page concerning Westchester / West. The Travis layout always showed up well when the pros were there and I got a kick out of the layout because it was one that Tiger -- in his limited appearances there -- could not tame.

The terrain, the overall diversity of holes -- I mean the 7th (as played during the former Buick Classic) and then you get a hole like the long dog-leg left 8th is very well done indeed.

Just shows that quality land, a superb routing and interesting greens have still got plenty of ummmph in the era of bomb and gouge.

Like I said before -- if you really like Banks designs be sure to play #4 nine at Montclair GC and of course -- Whippoorwill and Forsgate / Banks.

[ChipRoyce]

Matt;
You have to check out a cute kids program named "Phinea and Furb" on the Disney channel.

Your devotion to all things NY/NJ Metro reminds me of the show's antagonist, a evil genius who's main goal is to "take over the entire... TRI STATE AREA"

 

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

Thanks for the recommendation -- I'll be sure to watch !

Be curious to your take on my listing -- if you have others that should have been included -- or raised higher or lower.

[Jeff Loh]

Mr Hearst
That was Bud Light ONLY. Shlitz won't get you on Maple Moor.
I'm starting with the list now--burp.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

Westhampton recently returned their 17th hole to a true Biarritz, with a fronting bunker.

You should take a look at it, it plays from a little over 160 to 240.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

Hackensack's Biarritz is being restored to it's "full" version, with front bunkers that "hook" towards the middle. We have spent the last two years gradually reducing the grass height and hope to complete the bunker work this fall.

For those GCAers interested in what it takes to get a restoration approved by a membership...I can tell you that on an 18-hole plan 90% of the objections involved this hole... Happily, we just discovered a 1930's picture that clearly shows how the hole was constructed and that seems to have satisfied most.

[Bill Brightly]

And here it is as Banks built it:

[Jim Nugent]

Bill, can you tell in the picture if the swale is part of the green?  Or does the swale appear before the green, in the approach? 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()