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DMoriarty

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2008, 03:41:00 PM »
David Moriarty

I notice that you don’t read the post correctly.  The first and most obvious mistake so far on this one, is that you have not bothered to check how to spell my name. The second is that I have not singled anyone out to blame but said that in MHO it is a reflection on all of us (some do not agree).

My intentions regards this post was to try and keep Wayne as a member, not all about you.

If I have something to say to you, I will address it to you, as per my previous comment.

Thanks for clarifying Melvyn.  Spelling was never my strong suit.  I am one of those who disagrees that we are all to blame.     If you want to address the reasons he left, as your post claims to, then you should take a look at Wayne's last couple of posts where he told us why he left.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 03:43:05 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John_Cullum

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2008, 03:56:23 PM »
"I'll even go one better----I'm going to recommend a member of this website I really do believe can both mediate and resolve some of these issues, and I think he can do it right here on the discussion section, particularly the whole Merion/Macdonald, MacWood/Moriarty vs Tom Paul/Wayne Morrison issue, that is if he's willing to try it. I think he's got to be the most reasonable and objective person on here and he's also extremely interested in the history of Merion and those threads.


I got the idea a few weeks ago to act as judge in a trial of the issues joined between Morrison/Paul v. Moriarty/MacWood. I am eminently qualified as I am a former Recorder's Court Judge for the town of Rincon, Georgia, and also former Associate Judge for the Town of Thunderbolt, Georgia.

Most importantly, unlike Kirk Gill, I am not that interested in the history of Merion. Well, a little, but not so much that I am willing to read all of the stuff just for fun.

Therefor, I volunteer my services to preside over the trial as a fair and impartial judge, and I will publlish a written finding of fact and conclusions of law. I will require that my expenses be paid however. I'll do my best to hold them down.
Raynor was a hack

Dave_Miller

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2008, 04:00:52 PM »
David Moriarty

I notice that you don’t read the post correctly.  The first and most obvious mistake so far on this one, is that you have not bothered to check how to spell my name. The second is that I have not singled anyone out to blame but said that in MHO it is a reflection on all of us (some do not agree).

My intentions regards this post was to try and keep Wayne as a member, not all about you.

If I have something to say to you, I will address it to you, as per my previous comment.

Thanks for clarifying Melvyn.  Spelling was never my strong suit.  I am one of those who disagrees that we are all to blame.     If you want to address the reasons he left, as your post claims to, then you should take a look at Wayne's last couple of posts where he told us why he left.

To the Treehouse:

To me it is very unsettling that a persons I know very well such as Wayne and Tommy Paul along with others that I don't know as well but respect can get into the type of rancor that happens at times. I consider Wayne a very good friend. We have had many great times together and to me it is a sad day when someone of this calber feels a need to say they are leaving the site.  

While I agree with Bob Huntley that the Merion thread ultimately reached the point of being a total bore that is just my opinion.  I checked out of it and therefore avoided any rancor or otherwise. However we are supposed to be reasonable individuals (have not met a single GCA'er I haven't liked even if our opinions differed) and we should be able to disagree with each other respectfully.

Come back Wayne.  Ed Baker refuses to grant a release ;)

Fairways and Greens,
Dave


John Kirk

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2008, 06:05:39 PM »
I'm sorry to see Wayne leave.  He was always nice to me, and we share a common interest in older baseball history.

Like most here, I stopped reading the Merion threads months ago, and never delved deeply into them.  I don't care who designed Merion.  It is a great golf course, and Wayne has the privilege of playing in that beautiful park.  He's a lucky guy.

Come back when you're ready; in the meantime I'm sure you'll enjoy what you do.

TEPaul

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2008, 08:24:49 PM »
Now that Wayne Morrison seems to have decided to unregister and leave I think this website should consider, once again, what he said on a thread he started about a month ago. I suggest this website and its administrators read and very carefully consider what he was trying to say, particularly in paragraphs #3, #4 #5. If we don't all do that we just MAY have a very fundamental problem on here with clubs and others and it may seriously hurt this website and many of the things a number of us are trying to do with architecture, not just here but elsewhere. It seems that the administrators and a number of others have always had some real concerns about access seeking by some to PLAY a course. The access problem or perhaps the ACCESS PHILOSOPHY or SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT some or even many on here may have to any club's information is more of a problem by perhaps a factor of one thousand. I think we just have to consider this or we're all going to lose out in the end. Morrison was one of the best and most generous providers of some very serious and important architectural information on one of the most famous course's in the world. We cannot be losing people like this for the reasons he left. He was badgered and insulted and basically potentially compromised within his own club on here by a few who made and still make some really ridiculous demands and more ridiculous insinuations about him and even the intentions of his own club and its history. This should not be allowed to happen---not for ANY reason. Not just should it not happen, no one on this website should ALLOW it to happen, but it did.  Some on here may not care about Merion or the details of its history but certainly some do and this is why this happened. Do I understand what I may've done here with my insults and rudeness and inablility to "let it go"? Yes, I most certainly do and I'm so sorry it lead to this by Wayne Morrison. All I can say is I did it because I care so much as a few others around here do. One of the important things Wayne said in his post below is that it's just basically common decency and commonsense to come to a club first or at least those near or at it that know most about it and run things by the club or them first when anyone tries to do serious research and writing about it. That did not happen here on these Merion threads going back five years and culminating in this recent IMO essay. What is that all about? What does that mean and what should that tell all of us? No serious analyzer and writer of a golf club's history has ever done that. Not a single time that I'm aware of. If that doesn't tell all of us something pretty important, then it's remarkable and pretty sad. We all need to consider what it means and what happened here. If we don't it will just really hurt this website, and more of us, like Wayne Morrison, who is just the most recent in a number of departers, will be gone and that important information access that he provided for this website will be gone too. Please, read Wayne's concerns again and consider them and discuss them.

Here they are from that previous thread "A little Perspective...":






I was kindly given access to a very important set of club documents by the Merion Cricket Club.  As of 1942, the Merion Cricket Club and Merion Golf Club officially split from one another.  While there is a large cross-membership, the two entities are completely separate.  Any considerations by the Cricket Club towards me are greatly appreciated and must be respected in return.  They have just taken the first step in organizing their archives.  They don't have policies and procedures in place to manage access and use of their club documents.  So any expectation of access and dissemination of primary source material is unfounded and this is what I tried to address in an earlier post.  That was misinterpreted; I think more by distrust and disharmony than anything else.  Maybe the culture of private clubs is not well understood by some on this site.

The Merion Golf Club Archives is perhaps the leading club archives in the country.  We have had a few years to organize and establish principles and practices.  Access to this Archive may be granted if one follows certain procedures and fills out the proper forms.

It seems to me that some members of this site believe that private documents from private clubs should be freely accessible.  I cannot understand why that is, but they are surely mistaken.  I'm sure members of private clubs have a better understanding of this and accept the fact that privacy is very important and supersedes the public's right to know in most cases.  The instant demand for sharing information  to which I have just become familiar with is unsettling.   Original source material is the property of the Merion Cricket Club.  I will not share transcripts I made at this time nor without permission at any time. 

The first step is to study the transcripts, put together a presentation and make that presentation to the Merion Cricket Club and the Merion Golf Club.  Then the clubs can consider the presentation and decide for themselves what can and cannot be disseminated and in which forums.  Taking their views into account is vital.  I am a member of Merion Golf Club and not a member of Merion Cricket Club.  However, I would follow this line of behavior if I didn't have anything at all to do with them.  I respect their right to privacy and am obligated to follow their rules when allowed access.  By their rules, not the unwritten rules of this website.

When Tom MacWood and David Moriarty conduct their exhaustive efforts and come up with their conclusions, right or wrong, they should be obligated to share that information with the clubs involved as a first step, as a matter of courtesy.  They should allow peer review during their processes.  It is vital to do so.  To present original work on this website without regard to the clubs involved is in bad form.  For the founder and administers of this site to allow this information on the site without some established procedures is reckless and has caused many of these problems.  Is this a blog or a platform striving to achieve a higher potential?  Endorsing such findings without being informed enough to do so is harmful.  Presenting interesting ideas as fact is also causing us problems within the site and beyond.

Allow me the time to do a proper job with my research.  I was just introduced to this material.  I will work with others as I proceed to make sure there are checks and balances.  Lastly, let me address the clubs first.  In due time, I feel certain that the information will be made available, IF the clubs decide to allow it.  Questioning my motivations is more revealing of the questioners than the object of those questions.  It is not for the site to determine what should be done.  It is not proper for members of this site to question what is being withheld and what truths may be hidden or what myths are being protected.  Stop browbeating, stop fighting and stop speculating.

This site could be acclaimed for its fair and objective research and its dissemination of results, yet it has failed miserably.  We have lost opportunities time and time again to engage clubs and share information with each other in a cooperative effort.  Some passionate researchers seem more interested in making a name for themselves and revising history than conducting proper research with peer review.  We all have a part in this, including Ran and Ben. 

We’ve already seen that a few very important clubs state that they will not make their archives available to researchers for fear that their club histories will be questioned and their club character and ethos questioned as has been done on this site to Merion.  To its credit, Merion has stayed above the fray.  Yet it is certain that such uniformed opinions of information and motivations presented as fact harm the regard for the website and limit the potential good that can result from this platform.  Not only is this site damaged, but I fear that clubs will think twice before they wish to provide original source material to the USGA golf architecture archive and research center considering the behavior of some on this site, some of the poor quality of the analysis and a lack of common sense and courtesy.

So what shall we make of our opportunities?  We are not very good at self-regulating ourselves.  Our founder and administrators are rarely engaged.  Shall we continue to self-destruct or work together in a cooperative and respectful manner going forward? 

Bill Gayne

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2008, 08:31:57 PM »
Disappointed to see Wayne leave. I worked with him on a tiny portion of his overall his research about Flynn. Based on that experience alone, I knew he always brought an extremely well thought out position or idea through either his personal experiences or research.

He was one of a few people on this site that when I saw his name as making a recent post I tried to take the time to read.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2008, 08:32:08 PM »
Why should some clubs and their members be treated with kid gloves?  I guess it all comes down to access in the end.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

John_Conley

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2008, 10:26:51 PM »
Speaking of guys that don't post here any more, what is Darryl Boe up to?  He frequently played in Florida while down selling steel.

Gals?  Sally Livingston was posting.  I met her at a walking tour of Sugarloaf Mountain before it grew in.  What is she doing now...beside not posting here.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2008, 12:09:49 AM »
TE - I think your post #54 was an important one, and a very good one.  I've never walked a mile in Wayne's shoes, or yours, but I think I get where you're coming from.  For all the good the internet (and this website) has done, I think it (and this website) has also done some harm, i.e. it has devalued "knowledge" and given us "facts" instead; it has given people a "voice" but with little that holds us or our opinions "accountable"; and it has blurred the lines between the public and the private, and thus left those asking for privacy looking like they're hiding something. 

I've said it before: Wayne does not OWE me (or this website) anything at all. Who he is and the club he belongs to and his years of hard work put him in an unique position to write an essay on Merion's history, as that is as it SHOULD be. The last thing Wayne is obliged to do is apologize for what he brings to the table, or defend it.

Peter   
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 12:11:33 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2008, 12:47:43 AM »
Speaking of guys that don't post here any more, what is Darryl Boe up to?  He frequently played in Florida while down selling steel.

Gals?  Sally Livingston was posting.  I met her at a walking tour of Sugarloaf Mountain before it grew in.  What is she doing now...beside not posting here.



Wow, what a concidence, I have not been on here in probably a month or two.  A combination of life changes, being very busy with my business, and some of the well documented changes around here.  Low and behold I dont know why (it might have been that I really didnt want to pay any more attention to that aweful NBA Finals game) but I decided to see what was happening on here.  Then I see the sad news that someone I really respected, and enjoyed his participation, and enjoyed the breif direct contact that I have had with him has called it quits on here.   And in the course of reading this thread I see your questions John.  Quite the coincidence!  Thanks for remembering, and asking about me.

As I said I have been very busy with family obligations, and business being very busy.

Unfortunately I have not gotten down to FL quite as much as I used to.  You are in Orlando right?  I have been down to FL a couple times this year but I dont have much business in Orlando anymore.  I am normally in Jacksonville or Tampa now if I am down on business.  My only trip to Orlando lately is my yearly (hopefully) trip for the PGA Merchandise Show.

I hope to get on here more often and see how things are going these days.  Let me know what you have been up to.

And again Wayne if you are reading this, I am sorry to hear that you are leaving and the events that led to that.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John_Conley

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2008, 02:07:11 AM »
Great Darryl, now I'm wondering where Jeff Fortson is!

Yes, still in Orlando.  Moved to Oviedo 17 months ago.  My time away from golf was 2007.

Maybe someday we'll connect for a round.

Jim Nugent

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2008, 02:15:01 AM »
Great Darryl, now I'm wondering where Jeff Fortson is!


Jeff's back.  He started posting again a litle while ago. 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2008, 05:57:21 AM »
To all those who disagreed with my comment ‘Reflects badly on all of us’ I am minded of the following quote

“For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing”

Make of it what you will, but this was a post to try and show what we are loosing with the departure of Wayne Morrison. His leaving is our loss. We have been unable to persuade him to stay, a reflection of our collective failure of persuasion and of our unity as a (internet) discussion group.

This post was never intended to do anything more than to generate support in the hope of persuading Wayne to stay.

As I previously mentioned this site will be the poorer for his departure.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2008, 07:35:12 AM »
When Tom MacWood and David Moriarty conduct their exhaustive efforts and come up with their conclusions, right or wrong, they should be obligated to share that information with the clubs involved as a first step, as a matter of courtesy. They should allow peer review during their processes.  It is vital to do so.

Why?

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of clubs written about on this site, from the US, the UK, and all over the world. This idea makes no sense. Does this go for Brad Klein, Geoff Shackelford, Ron Whitten, Daniel Wexler and Bob Labbance too?

Whatever the organization, be it a private club, a private company, public company, goverment entity, sports body, family, whatever, it is their obligation to figure out their own history, not mine. If they can find someone at the club to do it for free, thats great, if they can't, they can pay a professional (and its not my fault if their porfessional gets it wrong). Its not my obligation to do the work for free and turn it over. Last I checked we live in a free society.

I've never in my life demanded anything from these clubs, why am I obligated to them. The idea that writers are demanding information is goofy. The sad reality is often the information these old clubs have is not very useful, that is why they occasionally get their own history wrong. And how many clubs even care about their architectural history. The Merion thread(s) got out of hand because personalities clashed, not because individuals were demanding anything from the Merion GC or the Merion Cricket C.

Sometimes you get the impression this is some kind of bartering system. You are obligated to share the information with club as a courtesy, if....fill in the blank. People have come to me over the years asking for info and I freely share what I have, I don't ask for anything in return. And too many to mention have kindly shared information with me. Thats how its worked in the past, but evidently thats not good enough - now we should be proactively contacting golf clubs throughout the world, its our obligation.

You would think by the tone of this long statement that we are dealing with state secrets. This is the history of golf architecture; we're not talking about sensative information. Again, the history of golf architecture; we're not identifying double agents or dealing with corporate espianage. And the events we are looking at took place ninety or more years ago. All the princilpes are dead, most children of the principles are dead.

I love the history of golf architecture, but we have blown everything out of proportion on this website...to be accurate a few have. Talk about needing some perspective.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 08:14:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

Paul_Turner

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2008, 07:46:18 AM »
Yes it's complete nonsense that a researcher should have to share what he or she has found with the club prior to going public with it.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

John Kavanaugh

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2008, 08:15:59 AM »


“For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing”



I agree that we are all to blame.  I recently offered a simple solution and was immediately cast as a boor and a bully because it would inconvenience the power structure of the most vocal faction on the site.  They could pull together like the brothers they are in access and end this but prefer not to rock the golden canoe.  It just might take a member of a great course like Merion to shut off the tap to wake these people up.  Thank you Wayne...Give it three days, I heard that has worked in the past.

Dan Boerger

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2008, 08:28:51 AM »

It's a loss to this site, that's for sure. Years ago, I posted on the AOL golf message boards occasionally, and if you think there's adolescent behavior here at times, it was strictly toddler behavior over there most of the time.

One thing I think people forget or lose sight of is that when someone is a member of a club -- and they join that club to recreate as most people do -- it must positively become a burden at times to go to the club and not have to discuss the "message board" issues at hand. F'in A ... were I Wayne, I probably would have left this board months ago.


"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

John Kavanaugh

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2008, 08:31:18 AM »



One thing I think people forget or lose sight of is that when someone is a member of a club -- and they join that club to recreate as most people do -- it must positively become a burden at times to go to the club and not have to discuss the "message board" issues at hand.



How do you think I feel? 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2008, 08:36:51 AM »
Through research, if one believes that new information has been uncovered, would it not be prudent to contact the clubs or organisations concerned to question if they were already aware of the information and seek their comments – if any.

I would have thought that it was part of the practice of good research. Leave no stone unturned. With my little experience in research I have contacted clubs. More than a few did not respond, which as we have seen has raised questions on some of my findings – the fault is mine for not doubling my efforts. I cannot blame others. However, thankfully many did respond. 

If a club or organisation decides not to respond that is their choice, but I have shown them the courtesy of my information, relating directly to them.
I have contacted the R&A, Brora, Cluny Estates and many, many more in my
search and have uncovered many new items including the former sites of lost courses.

Perhaps it just reflects more about the researcher’s approach than anything else. Each to his own, but I have found it not only valuable but helpful to contact clubs.

Phil McDade

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2008, 08:48:07 AM »
To all those who disagreed with my comment ‘Reflects badly on all of us’ I am minded of the following quote

“For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing”


Melvyn:

With all due respect, I think this is a bit over the top. To compare a quote relating to the genocide of 6 million people with a controversy on a discussion board related to, of all things, golf architecture, diminishes the words of Simon Weisenthal in ways that are barely describable.

I, too, am sorry that Wayne has left. He contributed much to my understanding of my favorite golf course in America, Merion East. I had a few off-board emails with him, and he seemed like a true gentleman and keen historian of the game, and particularly Flynn and Merion.

But like many here, I tired of the Merion threads, and stopped reading them, largely because their emerging tone and the seeming unwillingness of the participants to argue their points (many of them worthy) in ways that didn't resort to name-calling and broadsides. We have too much of that type of debate here in America (and probably in the UK as well); I spend time on GCA to get away from that sort of thing and wallow in reasoned, thoughtful, fun, and free-flowing debates about a subject that 99.99998 percent of the world could care less about.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2008, 08:52:49 AM »
Tom,

Generally I agree with you.  As Kelly said about the Kennedy's, they don't always get asked to cooperate.  However, sometimes they protest, or perhaps even sue, if what is written is slander.  And then it becomes an issue.  We have discussed so many clubs and courses where it isn't an issue, so what makes Merion different?  Wayne and TePaul act as if DM's questioning of its architectural heritage is slanderous.

The court of public opinion will decide, I think, even if Merion thinks its their right to decide.  While it should be, in practical reality, its not.  If they keep their documents in house, there will always be a small faction that will accuse them of hiding the truth.  I get the feeling that they would be best served to eventually put out Wayne and TePaul's research - perhaps also noting DM's - out in the public eye.  Won't these threads be mentioned in the 2013 US Open program and other coverage anyway?

As has been said before, no matter how history eventually re-judges Merions architectural lineage, it can't possibly diminish a great club and course.  In truth, the biggest thing they have to worry about diminishing their course's reputation is if the 2013 Open turns out to be a snoozer.  Sadly, the next five Opens will be judged by the one just completed.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

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Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2008, 09:04:49 AM »
To all those who disagreed with my comment ‘Reflects badly on all of us’ I am minded of the following quote

“For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing”


Melvyn:

With all due respect, I think this is a bit over the top. To compare a quote relating to the genocide of 6 million people with a controversy on a discussion board related to, of all things, golf architecture, diminishes the words of Simon Weisenthal in ways that are barely describable.



If Simon Wiesenthal said that (and I don't doubt it), he was certainly paraphrasing Edmund Burke -- who, for all I know, was paraphrasing some earlier sage.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2008, 09:11:29 AM »

Phil

Nothing is diminished.

The quote reflects on human nature and it is still applicable today.


Mike_Cirba

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2008, 09:12:13 AM »
Technically, Tom MacWood is correct here and on some level, academic freedom is important.  I would never argue otherwise, and perhaps in some idealized world there is some value to the "ivory tower" detached, purportedly objective approach that claims to only want to know "facts" and people be damned.

Yet, we do not exist as islands of information, and we are all collective members of this website, for better or worse, so what any one person does reflects on all of us here, like it or not.   If you think that's not true, you are naive, because this site is read by an unbelievable amount of industry people, and the general tenor, tone, and content here ARE important.   

In an age of instant "misinformation", where an Internet rumor can be started that Barack Obama is a muslim or John McCain is gay, and left unchallenged, can and will be seen as "Fact" in some uninformed circles, I think all of us here has a greater responsibility.   

Given that shared destiny and as important as academic freedom admittedly is, I think if we ask ourselves some common-sense, fundamental questions, I think they crystallize most of the salient issues here very well.

If any of us were to write something for publication about the history of Garden City, would you contact Patrick Mucci to discuss first?    Especially if Patrick had been acting as an archivist for that club?

What about Olympic Club?   Would it be important or just common cooperative good sense and decency to try and work with Joel Stewart, Gib Papazian, Kevin Reilly, and others??

Personally, I can't imagine writing something for publication about Ohio State GC without trying to work cooperatively with Tom MacWood.   Especially if the contention was something like "Mackenzie had absolutely nothing to do with the design of the course"....

Even if one answers "Yes" to all of the above, and I can't imagine too many of us here who honestly believe that, can you imagine afterwards sitting here week after week whining and demanding that the member you just slighted and tried to make look uninformed is somehow now obligated to provide you with source materials of items you didn't have access to originally....just so you can argumentatively have all the ammo for a fair fight as "facts" and premises in your original piece start crumbling into dust based on closer scrutiny?

Would anyone do that to Patrick Mucci??    DEMAND that he give them records and private minutes of Garden City GC because they weren't able to get them originally and now their knowingly controversial and even inflammatory paper is suffering based on additional findings?

How about Bob Huntley at his club??   Would anyone here have the unmitigated gall to make demands of him??

And if they did, wouldn't many here jump to their defense, stating rightly that NO ONE had the right to trample on a GCA friend or even aquaintance that way, and essentially misuse this site for that purpose.

I apologize for naming names, above, but I have to wonder what Wayne Morrison ever did wrong here that he didn't deserve the same courtesy, righteous indignation in his defense, and simple common decency and respect for the fact that he has a life and relations beyond this website.

I find myself asking many of the same questions Wayne has asked himself recently.

Bullies like John Kavanaugh above walk with inpunity around here.   Once again he comes forward pretending that he's interested in this website by ending this discussion with his "suggestion".

His suggestion was for Brad Klein to remove me from the Golfweek panel, even though to my knowledge, I'm the only member of that panel in the Merion discussions.  

John has always hated Golfweek, has a clear animosity and issue with Brad Klein, and has used this site over and over to insinuate all sorts of BS about the panel and it's members, yet most here seem to think he's just a misguided, nice guy.   "OH...that's just John".

However, unlike Wayne, I'm not quitting this website.   I frankly wouldn't give some people here that satisfaction, and to the rest of you, I value your friendship and camaraderie.  

Melvyn is also correct.

When personal attacks happen here, if we don't self-govern and rise to the defense of the attacked, this place is going to be exactly what it is fast becoming.   I'm sure that sounds hypocritical coming from me, as some here believe I unfairly attacked David Moriarty.    While that's true, I had heard from what I believe to be impeccable sources that his reasons for coming back here and writing his piece (which was also in conjunction with Tom MacWood) was based on  personal vendettas for past wounds against Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison.   So, in trying to defend against this site being used for that type of thing, I did go too far and later apologized to David, both publicy and privately.   Neither was accepted, but since that time I've tried to keep personal stuff out of the debates, and have tried to lighten the mood with humor, despite the fact that it's been a one-way effort.  

This site is important to some of us, which is why my defense has been so unreasonably strident at times.

Some of us had hoped this place could be a forum for actually accomplishing something REAL and USEFUL, besides the expenditure of hot air and keystrokes...likeworking in close conjunction with new initiatives like the USGA architectural museum, or the Cobb's Creek restoration effort, or just hoping to be a resource for clubs looking to go back to their classic architectural roots.   Perhaps, THAT was naive on our part.

Instead, it seems as if its been shanghai'd and is simply destined to continue as some sort of fringe, self-appointed, "gadfly" of architectural wackos way outside the mainstream, having little or no actual impact to what gets done "on the ground", and largely irrelevant....
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 09:38:48 AM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Wayne Morrison departure from GCA.com reflects badly on all of us
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2008, 09:13:25 AM »
"Why?

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of clubs written about on this site, from the US, the UK, and all over the world. This idea makes no sense. Does this go for Brad Klein, Geoff Shackelford, Ron Whitten, Daniel Wexler and Bob Labbance too?"


Why Tom MacWood?

Did Brad Klein, Shackelford, Whitten, Wexler or Labbance write about clubs without going to them first, without making them aware of what they were doing, without every trying to cooperate with them? I doubt that. The way you and Moriarty went about this is all wrong in my opinion, and in Wayne Morrison's and in Merion's. Both of you did it to challenge a club's history---you termed it their "legend", their "status quo" and likely just to challenge us and them. We think you do this simply to make a name for yourself by doing it that way. But the worst of it is it has led to an essay that is completely speciously reasoned apparently due to lack of complete historical information. I doubt it could have been that way if there was cooperation. The point is it is just wrong---really wrong. The facts are wrong and the approach is wrong.

But that's fine, it's a free world and people write garbage about clubs and all kinds of things all the time. We thought GOLFCLUBATLAS.com could do better than that but in our opinions with people like you two on here and seemingly others who agree with you there won't be anymore cooperation from us and I doubt Merion either and any other clubs we have anything to do with. We're going to us other entities. I could even go for an essay like that on here if the critiquing of it in these threads was carried on reasonably but it wasn't even close---it was nothing more than a bunch of deflective crap then insults thrown at us and even the club that there must be something to hide. That was followed by demands by the author for material he never had when he wrote his essay. He should've had it before he wrote his essay and he should have known it was necessary to the integrity of his piece. He would have had that too if he'd begun this whole thing in a manner that was not intended as a challenge which is just what it always was.

This is your style, your modus operandi and now his. We will no longer be part of any of that because we just don't agree with it and if that's the way this site wants it to be it will lead to continued rancor on here with other subjects, and other clubs and other people.  

We believe we have a better way to go about research and architectural history writing that simply makes more sense, uses commonsense and decency towards clubs by using cooperation and goodwill.  Yours is a classic example of a real "outside looking in" mentality and it has some very real and very serious drawbacks, in our opinion, essentially leading to just poor scholarship via lack of complete information or and a lack of willingness to treat it accurately.

Congratulations, you've introduced a novel and new approach. I hope this website appreciates it but we don't and we don't think this website and its participants will ever find golf clubs that do either.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 09:19:18 AM by TEPaul »

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