[John Foley]

Everyone makes choices and if Wayne choose to spend his time on other endeavours, more power to him.

I hope he plays a little more golf, spends some time w/ his familly & enjoys life.  Maybe even finish writing a book? He was a valuable contributors whose inputs I will miss.

There are alot of people who used to be here and / or post much more ofter  (Tommy, Gib, Neal Reagan, Ken Cotner, Todd Eckenroad, Dave Wigler, Noel Freeman, Geoff Shackleford heck Ran for that matter- glad to see Tom MacWood back) and for all of their own reason's choose to spend their time elsewhere.

In the end GCA is what it is.  A place to hang out and hopefully learn.

It's not 2000 anymore and it'll be different 5 years from know.

[Adam Clayman]

Quote from: Wayne Morrison on Yesterday at 06:11:28 am

"I would add 1950 and 1939 to any list of all-time great US Opens.  Unless of course playoffs turn you off."

What happened since yesterday? and Melvyn, how did you find out?

[TEPaul]

"Many in here including myself urged on several occasions to let it go, take a break, and then come back.  But many of the principles in those Merion threads wouldn't let it go and it has apparently come to this."


Kalen:

That is certainly true. It was the prinicples in the Merion threads who wouldn't let it go that has lead to this.

But to Wayne and to me there are some other issues involved in that, issues which we happen to think are really HUGE and very fundamental that he tried to express his concerns about to this entire site. Apparently they weren't listening, didn't want to listen or didn't care enough to help those concerns to get resolved or to even consider them. And it may even be that many think the opposite of Wayne re: those concerns.

I guess some, maybe most, will just write this all off to something like "Life in the Big City" or something like that. If this site really doesn't care to address some of these things then that'll probably just reconfirm to Wayne Morrison why his reasons for leaving are good reasons and the right ones.

I think this site should consider what his concerns were and maybe many even want to do to that. But it just may be for many of us, something along the lines of what Lanny said: "We ain't got the guts."

I'll sure be the first to take responsibility for my part in those Merion threads like my rudeness and my insults and my incapacity to let it go. I welcome anybody asking me why I do that, and I won't even need to defend myself and pretend like I was right. I'll tell you it is wrong to do that but it's just so hard to stop it for me with what I saw happening.

This site should seriously consider what Wayne's concerns were that made him unregister.

I'll even go one better----I'm going to recommend a member of this website I really do believe can both mediate and resolve some of these issues, and I think he can do it right here on the discussion section, particularly the whole Merion/Macdonald, MacWood/Moriarty vs Tom Paul/Wayne Morrison issue, that is if he's willing to try it. I think he's got to be the most reasonable and objective person on here and he's also extremely interested in the history of Merion and those threads.

It's Colorado's Kirk Gill.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I'm with Sir Huckaby on this one.  Wayne is a grown man and when he's ready he'll come back.

Wayne, enjoy your time away.

[John Kavanaugh]

People, Wayne is not gone...you can still IM him for future access before it is too late.

Now poor Walt Cutshall is gone...long gone.  note: When a guy is gone his name turns black and is registered as a guest.

I hope Wayne stays because he told me I could play Merion with him and I would hate to lose that opportunity.

[Paul Stephenson]

I'll miss reading his posts.  I hope he chooses to return sooner rather than later.

[Michael Powers]

And while I respect Melvyn very much, and find Kirk Gill to be a sage for our times....

I respectfully disagree.

Long-timers here will concur in this:  people come, people go.  It's always been that way.  Heck two of the principles in the Merion threads had left and came back.

Now I will agree that the contentiousness of those threads has been nothing but awful.  And it would be a shame if we lose the contributions of Wayne over this.

But as a reflection on the site as a whole?

That's taking it too far.  People come, people go.  Nastiness happens.  People decide to leave.  Most come back, some never do.  Always has been this way, always will be. It's the nature of internet discussion.

TH

While I agree in general with this sentiment, the loss of Wayne is a different matter.  A while back I responded to a Flynn post and asked for information regarding Normandy Isle.  Wayne just happened to have the plans for the redesign and and posted them here.  Who else is going to that?

[George Pazin]

I'll even go one better----I'm going to recommend a member of this website I really do believe can both mediate and resolve some of these issues, and I think he can do it right here on the discussion section, particularly the whole Merion/Macdonald, MacWood/Moriarty vs Tom Paul/Wayne Morrison issue, that is if he's willing to try it. I think he's got to be the most reasonable and objective person on here and he's also extremely interested in the history of Merion and those threads.

It's Colorado's Kirk Gill.

I think this is a tremendous idea. I'd love to see a peaceful resolution.

If I might offer a suggestion, as a non-involved participant: each side should establish some sort of criteria for what it would take to convince themselves of the other side's side. One of the founding principles of the scientific method is that you come up with both a hypothesis, and a way of testing that hypothesis. Try to establish in advance the guidelines, and then let the evidence fall where it may.

[David Wigler]

Everyone makes choices and if Wayne choose to spend his time on other endeavours, more power to him.

I hope he plays a little more golf, spends some time w/ his familly & enjoys life.  Maybe even finish writing a book? He was a valuable contributors whose inputs I will miss.

There are alot of people who used to be here and / or post much more ofter  (Tommy, Gib, Neal Reagan, Ken Cotner, Todd Eckenroad, Dave Wigler, Noel Freeman, Geoff Shackleford heck Ran for that matter- glad to see Tom MacWood back) and for all of their own reason's choose to spend their time elsewhere.

In the end GCA is what it is.  A place to hang out and hopefully learn.

It's not 2000 anymore and it'll be different 5 years from know.

John,

I am certain that I do not belong in the company of the others mentioned but thank you.

Melvyn,

I used to post several posts a day and be very involved in GCA.  I ended up in a very heated argument that went on over a lengthy period of time and spread to multiple threads (Ironically with one of the same people Wayne is now) and decided that it simply was not worth it.  In the past several years, I became an occasional lurker and very infrequent poster.  To no surprise of mine, GCA has done just fine without my banter and frequent input.  

Wayne is a great loss to me in that he was one of the most knowledgeable people on the site and someone who I went out of my way to read but the site survived the loss of Gib and I felt the same about him.  GCA will be around in 2013 because it is a passion of so many people.  Maybe Wayne will come back or maybe not but there are so many people here with such great knowledge and passion that you can always find threads worth reading and learning from and ultimately that is why so many of us who leave, end up as lurkers and just not as active contributors.  I would hope Wayne stays around for the selfish reason that I like to read his insights but I would be an incredible hypocrite to do any more than hope, given that I completely understand why he is leaving.  Between us, check back in 2010 and I'll bet he is throwing in some very insightful knowledge on a Philly Architecture thread for a new GCA'er.

[Paul Stephenson]

I'll even go one better----I'm going to recommend a member of this website I really do believe can both mediate and resolve some of these issues, and I think he can do it right here on the discussion section, particularly the whole Merion/Macdonald, MacWood/Moriarty vs Tom Paul/Wayne Morrison issue, that is if he's willing to try it. I think he's got to be the most reasonable and objective person on here and he's also extremely interested in the history of Merion and those threads.

It's Colorado's Kirk Gill.

I think this is a tremendous idea. I'd love to see a peaceful resolution.

If I might offer a suggestion, as a non-involved participant: each side should establish some sort of criteria for what it would take to convince themselves of the other side's side. One of the founding principles of the scientific method is that you come up with both a hypothesis, and a way of testing that hypothesis. Try to establish in advance the guidelines, and then let the evidence fall where it may.

This is assuming Kirk even wants to wade into the mire.  I would hope that being from Colorado Kirk has a really good pair of hip-waders 

[Jeff_Brauer]

If the Flynn book comes out sooner than it might have, then Wayne leaving is a good thing, or at least a net wash in most of our understanding of golf architecture history.

[TEPaul]

"I think this is a tremendous idea. I'd love to see a peaceful resolution.

If I might offer a suggestion, as a non-involved participant: each side should establish some sort of criteria for what it would take to convince themselves of the other side's side. One of the founding principles of the scientific method is that you come up with both a hypothesis, and a way of testing that hypothesis. Try to establish in advance the guidelines, and then let the evidence fall where it may."


George:

Good suggestion, even though I don't know much about "the principles of the scientific method." In honor of Wayne and his preferences in architecture do you think we could use "the prinicples of the natural method?"

Seriously, I have a lot of faith in Colorado's Kirk Gill. It may even be appropriate for him to come up with his own suggestions.

One of his added attributes here is he may be the most interested on here in this entire Merion architectural history story. He actually wants to see it go on to some kind of resolution. To me that's very different from most of the rest on here who complain about those threads because they are so tired of Merion being discussed. Frankly, I can't exactly understand why they just don't totally avoid them, and ditch the complaints, if they aren't interested.
 

[Bob_Huntley]

This was in answer to a question posed by Mr. W. Whitehead.

"WWhitehead,

With respect, some of the most stimulating discussions on this board of been off the O/T variety.

I do believe we have some very bright people here, that have played golf at the highest level and have the scalps of hundreds of the good and great courses. Their thoughts on the architectural merit of such venues are well considered and informative. However, their thoughts on other subjects are as equally informative and sometimes much more enjoyable than the dry history of who did what to whom and where.

When it comes to pure architecture and the genesis thereof, I think the Merion thread turned into a contentious bore."

Bob

I thought it only a matter of time before the Merion thread caused a schism in the ranks. The ultimate sentence above was written before I heard of Wayne's misgivings and subsequent purdah.

I am sure that sometime in the future we shall hear from Wayne, I certainly hope so.

Bob

[Dan Kelly]

I don't know what's been going on with all of this Merion bitterness I keep hearing about, second-hand, because I haven't read any of the Merion threads that have caused such unhappiness.

My dealings with Wayne Morrison have all been civilized and satisfying. As Peter said: He's been generous to me with his time and his words, beyond what was necessary.

GCA.com without Wayne is as much diminished as the Phillies were without Richie.

Say it ain't so, Mr. Morrison.

But if it is so: Best wishes. And thanks.

Dan

[John Kavanaugh]

I miss Wayne's baseball stories.  Isn't he related to a Hall of Famer?  I'm always looking for his twin brother in St. Louis but I don't know what he looks like.

[Jim Nugent]

John, I heard somewhere he's related to the author of Beloved.  You know, the woman who named Bill Clinton our first black president. 

Wayne, I also hope you reconsider and stick around.  For one thing, I never could get very far into Beloved, and didn't understand it.  Maybe you can ask Toni to give me some insights? 

[mike_malone]

 Wayne might be smarter than I think he is

[John_Conley]

Isn't he related to a Hall of Famer? 

He is.  Richie Ashburn?  I'm trying to recall who.  He described him to me once in a PM as a solid hitter in an era where the marquee outfielders of the day had more power or something like that.

[mike_malone]

 His wife is related to Ashburn--his daughter.

[TEPaul]

"His wife is related to Ashburn--his daughter."

That's true Mayday, and she can run around the bases about four times faster than you ever could. As for Wayne, I think he's quite closely related to Mel Brooks somehow.

[Phil_the_Author]

If Wayne hadn't decided to leave already, my stating that Richie Ashburn entered because of hitting .306 for the New York Mets in 1962, would surely have driven him away! 

[DMoriarty]

Melvin Morrow.

  This has nothing to do with over 1480 participants on the site.   You've indicated before that you think that my essay is totally responsible for the ugliness of the Merion threads on the theory that I should have known, from past experiences, that Wayne, TEPaul, and Mike Cirba would react badly to my opinions, and so I therefore you think I should not have expressed them.   

I'd prefer you to address this openly and direct your criticism to me rather than disparage others.

____________________________________

If I might offer a suggestion, as a non-involved participant: each side should establish some sort of criteria for what it would take to convince themselves of the other side's side. One of the founding principles of the scientific method is that you come up with both a hypothesis, and a way of testing that hypothesis. Try to establish in advance the guidelines, and then let the evidence fall where it may.

George, I would be glad to let the evidence fall where it may.  That was my intention from the beginning. 

I think the ground rules would be simple. 

1.  Try to treat each other as we would if we were face to face. 

2.  Stick to specific, substantive, and supported critiques rather than empty platitudes and vague and general insults.   

3.  If you cannot or will not back up your factual claims with the facts, then do not make the claims.

4.  Play by the same rules as everyone else. 

[Dave_Miller]

I miss Wayne's baseball stories.  Isn't he related to a Hall of Famer?  I'm always looking for his twin brother in St. Louis but I don't know what he looks like.

John:
Wayne is the Son-In-Law of the great Richie Ashburn - Member of the baseball hall of fame and great player and announcer in his later years.
Best
Dave

[Melvyn Morrow]

David Moriarty

I notice that you don’t read the post correctly.  The first and most obvious mistake so far on this one, is that you have not bothered to check how to spell my name. The second is that I have not singled anyone out to blame but said that in MHO it is a reflection on all of us (some do not agree).

My intentions regards this post was to try and keep Wayne as a member, not all about you.

If I have something to say to you, I will address it to you, as per my previous comment.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think that sometimes we lose perspective and fail to remember, if not recognize, that this is the internet and not a face to face conversation.  We type out our comments and have the opportunity to review them and consider them before they are posted.  I only wish we could do the same when we are at home with our spouses and children.  It is an opportunity to express our views and then reflect on whether we want to relate them to others; we can consider how someone will react or feel when they read what we have to say and then, and only then, decide on whether to post it or not.  We are not talking about uninformed, opinionated fools who always seem to be the ones giving their opinion on some political issue; we are talking about guys who know what they are talking about when it comes to golf course architecture.  At least that's the way it appears to me, a guy who knows relatively little about the subject.  I hope that there is a GCA get together sometime in the near future when guys can have a drink together and realize that when it's all over, we should it enjoy while we can.

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