[TEPaul]

I've always been interested in Meehan's talent because I did play a number of tournaments over the years at North Hills and in my opinion, that course has some really good holes----really good for that time for sure. The only problem with North Hills is some of the holes, or at least one is just really squashed in (#18) but I guess that kind of thing is just inherent in a basic "routing obstacle" problem of running out of land and decent space for golf in the end.

[Dan Boerger]

Tom - I agree with you about North Hills 18. It almost seems an afterthought. Interestingly they just flattened the green so an approach hit above the green won't be an automatic 3 putt. - Dan

[D_Malley]

what about the springhaven club?  what was the quality of their course at this time?  also what about the PA railroad course in havertown?  ny father used to play there often in the 30's.  not sure of it's quality.

[D_Malley]

The springhaven Club

[Thomas MacWood]

George
Any idea when that photo was taken.

Merion East (Wilson/Committee 1912, Wilson/Flynn 1916)

Merion West (Wilson 1913)

Gulph Mills (Ross 1916)

Huntingdon Valley (Original?, Ab Smith 1909-1916 and probably before and possibly beyond).   The Baederwood course attributed to Colt/Allison was largely already there prior to their arrival.

Pine Valley (Crump/Colt 1913-1918)

Whitemarsh Valley (George Thomas & Samuel Heebner 1908, internal changes through teens, likely by Heebner...still trying to pin down Ross revision dates)

Torresdale-Frankford - George Sayers 1915 (9), Donald Ross 1922

Llanerch CC (Findlay)  - B.F. Lewis/George Lindsay 1901, Alex Findlay 1916 and again in 1928

Cobb's Creek (Wilson, Smith, Klauder, Crump, Meehan 1916)

Lulu (J. Franklin Meehan/Warren Webb 1912 (9),  Donald Ross 1919

Sunnybrook (Ross but built by Samuel Heebner and George Thomas)

Old York Road - Jimmy Laing 1910,  Tillinghast revisions 1914

CC of Atlantic City - John Reid/HJ Tweedie 1897, Willie Park 1899...I believe Flynn's work was 1923

Cedarbrook (Tillinghast 1921)

Philmont (South) - John Reid 1907-08, Hugh Wilson/Henry Strouse 1914

Bala - Willie Dunn 1901, Willie Tucker 1903

Philadelphia Cricket - Sanders Handford 1895 (9), Willie Tucker/Samuel Heebner 1898, Donald Ross 1915

Philadelphia Cricket (New) - Tillinghast 1922

DuPont (Ross) - I don't believe this course existed in 1922.

Overbrook (Ross) I don't believe I've heard this attribution prior.

Seaview - Hugh Wilson 1913 (18 - same as today's routing), Donald Ross/Wilfred Reid/William Connellan 1916 (additional bunkering)

Lancaster - Not verified but I believe J. Harold Wickersham/George Franklin 1913, followed by Flynn 1919 through the rest of his life.

Ashbourne - J. Franklin Meehan  1922

North Hills - J. Franklin Meehan 1913, Hugh Wilson/Ab Smith/William Flynn 1916

Aroninmink - Tillinghast/Klauder/Calvert 1913-15 with a hole or two advised by Vardon/Ray during a visit.

Springhaven-

[Thomas MacWood]

Wasn't there a professional by the name of Campbell involved in the design of Torresdale?

[TEPaul]

racetrack:

Apparently the original nine holes of the Springhaven course was designed by a woman---Ida Dixon.

[D_Malley]

Tom M.
I think that pic was from around the time frame you are talking about, early 20's.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wasn't there a professional by the name of Campbell involved in the design of Torresdale?

Tom,

No...that was the original course at a different site.

[Thomas MacWood]

In addition to Ida Dixon who are the architects involved at Springhaven?

[Adam_Messix]

Do any of you know when Ashbourne is going to close down?

[Joe Bausch]

In addition to Ida Dixon who are the architects involved at Springhaven?

I'll sort of bite TomM.  I think I know where you are going with this, but I'm pressed for time today and instead I'll point you to this web page:  www.gapgolf.org

[TEPaul]

"In addition to Ida Dixon who are the architects involved at Springhaven?"

Tom MacWalnut:

I think it may've been an architect who at least one, and perhaps two "expert researchers" think was likely the second best architect in America, right behind C.B. Macdonald. I think his name was something like J.J. Barker or A.A. Barker or something that sounds like that. They even say he may've routed and designed the great Merion East because novice Hugh Wilson and his four member novice amateur architect committee "CONSTRUCTED" the course to his design but that they were so novice-like and super-dense they were never really sure whose design it was.  Some say Horatio Gates Lloyd actually found it in his pocket in April, 1911 and just thought it was sort of a neatsy-keen routing and design.

On the other hand, some recently discovered MCC board meeting minutes apparently contradict that story and seem to suggest that the committee had a routing and design plan from Barker and another one from Macdonald/Whigam but neither was signed and so in one of American golf architecture's most significant moments, Chairman Hugh Wilson made an executive decision in his roll as chairman of the committee and simply went "eeeny, meeeny, miiiny, moe" and he picked one and that's what the great Merion is.

Personally, I know it was Barker's because I've seen some secret documentation but there is absolutely no chance at all I'm ever going to share it with you or Moriarty.

I mean, what would be the point of that? You two are so adverserial and illogical you'd probably try to claim that Wilson and his committee actually routed and designed the course themselves despite being super-dense rank novices but that they were so arrogant when C.B. Macdonald showed up with his sidekick H.J. Whigam to try to horn in on the action to make a name for themselves, that Wilson and committee told them to screw off and asked them who in the tar did they think they were trying to tell them what to do and ride their talented coat-tails.

Matter of fact, this story that Wilson and his committee went to NGLA for two days to be tutored in architecture by Macdonald is completely bogus. The truth is they drove to Boston and were tutored for three and a half days and nights by Myopia's Herbert Leeds who they felt was considered to be the "Great Uncle" of all American golf course architecture. They also preferred Leeds because they heard he was a complete misogynist and that appealed more to their "amateur/sportsmen" spirits.

[Thomas MacWood]

Joe
Feel free to point out any other changes or mistakes.

Merion East (Wilson/Committee 1912, Wilson/Flynn 1916)

Merion West (Wilson 1913)

Gulph Mills (Ross 1916)

Huntingdon Valley (Original?, Ab Smith 1909-1916 and probably before and possibly beyond).   The Baederwood course attributed to Colt/Allison was largely already there prior to their arrival.

Pine Valley (Crump/Colt 1913-1918)

Whitemarsh Valley (George Thomas & Samuel Heebner 1908, internal changes through teens, likely by Heebner...still trying to pin down Ross revision dates)

Torresdale-Frankford - George Sayers 1915 (9), Donald Ross 1922

Llanerch CC (Findlay)  - B.F. Lewis/George Lindsay 1901, Alex Findlay 1916 and again in 1928

Cobb's Creek (Wilson, Smith, Klauder, Crump, Meehan 1916)

Lulu (J. Franklin Meehan/Warren Webb 1912 (9),  Donald Ross 1919

Sunnybrook (Ross but built by Samuel Heebner and George Thomas)

Old York Road - Jimmy Laing 1910,  Tillinghast revisions 1914

CC of Atlantic City - John Reid/HJ Tweedie 1897, Willie Park 1899...I believe Flynn's work was 1923

Cedarbrook (Tillinghast 1921)

Philmont (South) - John Reid 1907-08, Hugh Wilson/Henry Strouse 1914

Bala - Willie Dunn 1901, Willie Tucker 1903

Philadelphia Cricket - Sanders Handford 1895 (9), Willie Tucker/Samuel Heebner 1898, Donald Ross 1915

Philadelphia Cricket (New) - Tillinghast 1922

DuPont (Ross) - I don't believe this course existed in 1922.

Overbrook (Ross) I don't believe I've heard this attribution prior.

Seaview - Hugh Wilson 1913 (18 - same as today's routing), Donald Ross/Wilfred Reid/William Connellan 1916 (additional bunkering)

Lancaster - Not verified but I believe J. Harold Wickersham/George Franklin 1913, followed by Flynn 1919 through the rest of his life.

Ashbourne - J. Franklin Meehan  1922

North Hills - J. Franklin Meehan 1913, Hugh Wilson/Ab Smith/William Flynn 1916

Aroninmink - Tillinghast/Klauder/Calvert 1913-15 with a hole or two advised by Vardon/Ray during a visit.

Springhaven - Ida Dixon 1903, HH Barker

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I have never heard Springhaven mentioned as being much of a golf course, either in the early days or any time thereafter.

With no offense to anyone intended, I've never tried very hard to play there because word I've heard is that it frankly is not very good.


What can you tell us about Barker at Whitemarsh Valley?    The original course seems a real mixed bag...long enough for the post-Haskell tournament world, but a lot of the accounts make it seem to be wholly unsophisticated.   Joe's article pointing out Ross being involved as early as 1918 makes sense, because it seems pretty clear that something was pretty unsatisfactory about the early versions.   

Certainly Captain George Thomas was no rookie sensation, and it seems he learned about golf course architecture exactly as he is quoted...from watching Hugh Wilson design and build Merion and Cobb's Creek, and George Crump doing the same at Pine Valley.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Springhaven's not bad. It is a bit different and maybe I just got used to it over there years. I played in the annual tournament, The Rawlins, for years and I can tell you they always got good fields. You always played with a member or two. Chet Walsh sort of owned that particular tourney. There were some pretty interesting holes and some pretty different ones. We always had a lot of fun on that course.

As best as I can remember I don't think anyone was too sure who else was there after Ida Dixon. That's where I first met Bob Labbance and I don't think any of us found much then. Flynn may've done some things---I'll have to look.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

Springhaven's not bad. It is a bit different and maybe I just got used to it over there years. I played in the annual tournament, The Rawlins, for years and I can tell you they always got good fields. You always played with a member or two. Chet Walsh sort of owned that particular tourney. There were some pretty interesting holes and some pretty different ones. We always had a lot of fun on that course.

Tom,

Your reviews are starting to sound like Jim Finegan's, who never met a golf course he didn't like! 

I believe Flynn did do work there in the 20s.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Ashbourne did not open for business this spring.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Since your original question asked what were the best courses around Philadelphia in 1922, let me see if I can't edit the list a bit.

Merion East (Wilson/Committee 1912, Wilson/Flynn 1916)

Merion West (Wilson 1913)

Gulph Mills (Ross 1916)

Huntingdon Valley (Original?, Ab Smith 1909-1916 and probably before and possibly beyond).   The Baederwood course attributed to Colt/Allison was largely already there prior to their arrival.

Pine Valley (Crump/Colt 1913-1918)

Cobb's Creek (Wilson, Smith, Klauder, Crump, Meehan 1916)

Sunnybrook (Ross but built by Samuel Heebner and George Thomas)

CC of Atlantic City - John Reid/HJ Tweedie 1897, Willie Park 1899...I believe Flynn's work was 1923

Cedarbrook (Tillinghast 1921)

Philadelphia Cricket (Old) - Sanders Handford 1895 (9), Willie Tucker/Samuel Heebner 1898, Donald Ross 1915

Philadelphia Cricket (New) - Tillinghast 1922

Seaview - Hugh Wilson 1913 (18 - same as today's routing), Donald Ross/Wilfred Reid/William Connellan 1916 (additional bunkering)

Aroninmink - Tillinghast/Klauder/Calvert 1913-15 with a hole or two advised by Vardon/Ray during a visit.

I'm still uncomfortable with the Merion West course on that list, but I guess we'll leave it for now.

So, what now?

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Why not comfortable with Merion West on the list? For the time it must have been quite a challenge...

I believe that the USGA considered using the West course for the 1916 Amateur, but I'm not certain about that.

[Joe Bausch]

I believe that the USGA considered using the West course for the 1916 Amateur, but I'm not certain about that.

Unless I'm remembering things totally wrong, they did use the West course for the qualifying rounds (together w/ the East) of the 'Bobby Jones comes onto the scene tournament' at Merion in 1916.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe/Kyle,

For more info about the West course being used for qualifying rounds in the 1916 US Amateur, and how it was viewed at the time, please see my last post (Reply #189) on the Revisionism thread.

Thanks

[TEPaul]

In case you hadn't heard it before, in Alan Wilson's report on the creation of Merion East and West, he said; "Merion West was designed for the nine and ninety." He also mentioned that Hugh Alison prefered it to the East course.

[Mike_Cirba]

In case you hadn't heard it before, in Alan Wilson's report on the creation of Merion East and West, he said; "Merion West was designed for the nine and ninety." He also mentioned that Hugh Alison prefered it to the East course.

Tom,

Could you explain the term "nine and ninety"?   Thanks!

***Edit***

Tom,

I see the meaning...he basically stated that the East course was the championship, challenge course, while the West was a nice "members course", more suitable for the majority of average and less-skilled golfers in today's parlance.

I think he's right.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I'd say that's exactly what he meant.

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