[Bryan Izatt]

Andrew,

I asked for an 11 am time for Jerry and I at the Hawklaw, and they said sure, but I've heard nothing since.  Have you got a confirmed time?  Anyway, I guess we'll be speeding down the carriageways of Scotland to Lundin Links behind you.

Based on our exhaustive 2 person sample, I'd say the Behrian handicapping system is a non-starter, unless we'd like to bring in DM and TEP to research the two sides for us.  As for "Do I assume that 4/15 extrapolates to 5/18?", I'll leave that to Mark to clarify.  Beats me.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Bryan

Andy Levett handled our application and I guess he hasn't heard anything yet but he did tell me it was fairly last minute last time he played in it.

[Mark Pearce]

I know that I've got a 10.30 time in the Hawklaw and assume that I'll be with at least a couple of other pests.  I know that Conrad Gamble has also entered the Hawklaw and think he has an 11am time, so he could end up playing with Bryan and Jerry.  I'd think anyone playing at 11am at Cruden should have plenty of time to make it to Anstruther for fish and chips, btw.

[Mark Pearce]

I'd be fascinated, btw, to try a different handicapping system.  My last round was an 88, which, with Stableford adjustment under CONGU I think puts me just inside the buffer zone off my 11.7.  Behr puts me at 12 (6 pars) whilst Callaway puts me at 14 (the 2 7s on par 4s that Stableford adjustment will correct).

Having said all of which, the puritan in me is attracted to the idea of playing off scratch.

[Andrew Mitchell]

I've just rung Cruden Bay and a helpful lady gave me the starting times for the Buda pests that I was aware of entering:
10.10 Mark Bourgeois
10.20 Andy Levett & Tony Muldoon
10.40 Fred Ulmer and Andrew Mitchell
10.50 Joe Fairey

Mark has already mentioned that he is out at 10.30 and Conrad Gamble at 11.00 so they seem to have spread us out a bit.  Play is in threeballs.

Bryan - the lady could not find either you or Jerry on the drawsheet.  I would suggest you give her a ring on (+44) 01779 812285

I look forward to seeing all the pests there, ready to record their Behr pars   I am driving up from Yorkshire on Saturday, staying with my daughter in Dundee and will not be in Cruden Bay until Sunday morning.  If anyone is without transport and would like a lift down to Fife afterwards please IM me.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan and Jerry (do you guys make ice cream?)

In case Cruden Bay has dropped the ball (very possible, even though tragic and highly regrettable), think about some alternatives from the site below.

http://www.golfcentral.co.uk/SGU/default.asp

If you're up for it, I'd go for the Kirriemuir 36-holer. Great wee Braid heathalnd course, and set in the venue for the famous rugby song, "The Ball at Kirriemuirr

The song starts off:

"Four and twenty virgins came down from Inverness
And when the ball was over there were four and twenty less,
Singing b***s to your partner a**e against the wall
If you never get l**d on Satruday Night you'll never get l**d at all."

The later verses are far to vulgar to be posted on a family website such as this.....

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Back to Behr/Callaway handicaps, it's clear that that Callaway was a generous fellow.  My last 5 recorded competitive scores at my club are, in reverse order:

Score    Net score    Behr    Callaway
88         76               12        14
97         85               11        26
28pts    NA               15        NA
84         72                 8        11
94         82               13        18

Interestingly I improved by 9 shots between my last two scores.  Behr gives me a lower handicap based on the worse score (11 vs 12) whilst Callaway gives me one 12 higher.  I'd fancy myself against anybody off a 26 handicap.  My Behr average is 11.8 which, ironically is my current exact CONGU.  My Callaway average is 17.25.  That's a pretty significant difference and reinforces that Callaway is more generous, particularly to a player like me capable of decent scoring but prone to a small number of awful holes.  Behr strikes me as far better than Callaway for match play, though I'm pretty happy that CONGU is fairerthan both.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Just to bring everyone up to date, Mike Whitaker has offered the Callaway System as a method of handicapping the Buda pests:
http://www.greenvillegolfingsociety.com/CallawayHandicapPar72.htm

From the link:

The Callaway Scoring System is applied as follows:

A player's handicap is determined after the round by combining a number of his worst individual holes during the first 16 holes... holes 17 and 18 may not be considered as worst holes. No hole may be scored at more than twice its par.

The table below shows the number of "worst holes" allowed by the player's gross score and the "handicap adjustment" to be made based on the gross score. For instance, a player's gross score for eighteen holes is 96. The table indicates that his handicap will be determined by the total of his three worst scores on holes one through sixteen, inclusive.

Thus, if the player has one 9, one 8, and a 7 his "handicap" totals 24. From this total a further plus or minus adjustment is made to the "handicap" according to the gross score factor at the bottom of the chart. In this example the player's 96 would result in a -2 adjustment to his handicap. Final Handicap = 22 (24 - 2)

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bryan

Is there a logical inconsistency in your statement that the Behr round you scored was more erratic than your normal rounds yet produced pretty much the same handicap as the current system you're under?

Bryan and Andrew

Regarding completion of a round, I haven't found anything in the Runic Texts on this; however, I can see two options:
1. Extrapolate by calculating your most-likely point total on the unplayed holes, factoring in *not* your play of that day but your *normal* play, plus the stroke ratings / difficulty of the holes to be played
2. Subtract your Behr System total from the total number of holes completed
3. Don't count the round

In both your cases, I would say Option 2 is right answer, yes?

Seriously, Option 1 probably is best.  This is how the USGA system asks players to calculate round scores; as many as 5 unplayed holes in a "stipulated round" may be extrapolated in this fashion.

In other words, the Americans at least have no grounds to bitch about Behrian (does he play for the Packers?) treatment unplayed holes.

The Behr System: bloodied but unbowed!  Congrats to those posters who already have gotten at least one Behr round under their belts.  Well done -- it's not that difficult! 

Important point:
If your Behr System handicap is equivalent to your current-system handicap, it doesn't mean there's no difference between the systems, it means you play very steady golf.  You score lots of pars, probably.

To Rich's point, the USGA ESC does the same thing to this golfer as the Behr System. (Don't ask me about CONGU!)

This misses the point of the Behr System!  The Behr System is designed to provide a match-play handicap.  The variance between match-play handicaps and stroke-play handicaps is likely to be greatest for golfers suffering inconsistent play from hole to hole.

In other words, the Behr System is a more-equitable means of handicapping the average or poor golfer against the low marker!

Most handicap systems fudge for this by playing stroke handicaps at 80 percent or some such.  Again, that's a fudge for the system's inability to calculate a true match-play handicap.

So the USGA-based system sorta fudges its way to a reasonable approximation of match-play handicaps, using ESC and percent reductions -- but again, these are all just fudges that work for the "average" golfer.  As we all know, head in the freezer + feet in the oven = comfortable average temperature!


Last point:
At the end of the day, the biggest issue is the incomparability of the two systems.  Using the Behr System -- or any system -- collectively gives us comparability / portability.

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Would everyone feel more enthusiastic about using the Behr System (for three days) if the results were written up, perhaps as an "In My Opinion"?

That's kinda the point of this exercise.  Wouldn't you like to know:
1.  Does the Behr System have merit?
2. What are its advantages and weaknesses?
3. In what circumstances did it produce the greatest variance to the current handicapping system(s)?
4. Did it actually affect any match outcomes, and if so, how?
5. What was handicapping like 75 years ago -- have we progressed as a golfing civilization, or have we piled Pelion on Osa?

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Dear Capn' Mark

I am coming to see a direct correlation between the time that the USA began to overtake the Old World in all matters golfing and Maxie Behr's entry onto the scene.  He is like the Pythons in the "Confuse a Cat" scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Je1CEPkUM

Good work as I think it is confusing the Euros to death.

Capn' Emeritus Rhic

[Jason Topp]

Just to add to the confusion if anyone wants to sort this out:


http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html

[Bryan Izatt]

Andrew,

Thanks for inquiring re the Tankard.  They had muddled up our booking.  As a result, we won't be playing at 11:00 with Conrad.  They have fit us in at 11:20, so it looks like we'll be following in the fine footsteps and divots of all the esteemed GCAers that are there.

Mark,

If you want to do an IMO piece, I'd be happy to do a peer review on it.     Perhaps we wouldn't even need to come to (verbal) blows, as some are want to do on those IMO pieces.

..............

Is there a logical inconsistency in your statement that the Behr round you scored was more erratic than your normal rounds yet produced pretty much the same handicap as the current system you're under?

...........................

Important point:
If your Behr System handicap is equivalent to your current-system handicap, it doesn't mean there's no difference between the systems, it means you play very steady golf.  You score lots of pars, probably.

......................

As to logical inconsistencies, I don't see any logically.  My normal good round might produce no birdies and 12 pars.  This erratic round provided 4 birdies and 4 pars.  Both cases provide a handicap of 6.  which happens to match my RCGA index.  So, my point was that either system appears to work in my (limited to 2 rounds) experience.  Now, if I had 4 birdies, 4 pars and 4 doubles, the Behrian model would have me at 6, whereas the modern world would have me at 12 or so, not one of my 10 best of the last 20.  Appears to under-cap that kind of round.  Totally logical, if scientifically unsound.

If you are proposing to use the handicapping based on the rounds at the Buda, does that mean that we won't be able to do the match scoring until after the match is over and we count up birdies, pars, etc.  Would that not undermine the match play aspect by us not knowing which were stroke holes during the match?  Or am I just confused as Rhic alludes.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hi Bryan

No, everyone should come with their "best efforts" Behr handicap, and you'll know where you stand on the first tee vis your comp and yourself.

Some will forget or not get in enough rounds; they will just go with their standard and wrong handicap!

Here's another example to consider:
American golfer shoots a 98, with 3 pars. For match play, should this golfer get 26 strokes against an English zero, an English Old Man Par who shoots nothing but pars, the "typical" 80 percent or 21 strokes, the +10 percent of 31 strokes - or the Behr system 15 strokes?

Honestly I don't know! But I have read that golfers don't shoot their handicap by scoring evenly across 18 holes, they cruise along for some number of holes, then blow up on the rest.

If that's the case, ESC limits the distortion but might not do so significantly.

Mark

PS have you been getting the emails? Some have bounced back with a message saying yesbmission would be delayed. And can you be sure to forward to your friend?

[Sean_A]

What the hell are you lot on about?  This has to go down as one of the most bizarre of the Markus Bourgeoisius threads/ideas.  The Confuse A Cat skit made a hell of a lot more sense then this other worldly (IE Behrian) handicap discussion.  In the words of a Dragon, (if I was in - the Buda that is), just to let you know where I stand, I'm out.

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark,

Beats me which approach to use.  Depends on your definition of better.  Each approach will favour one golfer over another.  An approach will be viewed as good by those that win as a result of it, and bad by those that lose as result of it.  Why don't you collect stats from the Buda rounds and do a comparison of the results vs those achieved by the use of regular handicaps.

No, I haven't received any e-mails from you.  I had three from Andrew this morning, so my mail server is working.  Could you try to send them again.  Thanks.

[Mark Pearce]

Did James Braid ever bother with handicaps?  Since we're playing in the place of his birth I'm swinging even further to the idea of not bothering with handicaps at all.

One thing is for sure.  I don't like the Callaway system.  It might give me a big number but it can't be fair.  The Behr system I like, but will depend on the course it's calculated on as it doesn't allow for course difficulty.  A course like Elie, with its plethora of short par 4s, is going to produce a lot more pars (and birdies) for the low teens golfer than a longer course.

[Andrew Mitchell]

I heard our fellow BUDA pest Lloyd Cole on BBC Radio 2 last night.  Lloyd sounded to be on good form and talked a bit about golf, but failed to mention BUDA VI

Anyone interested you can hear the show again by following the link here

[Rich Goodale]

Hello, Happy Buda Pests!

Firstly, the following are the reservations I have noted for S, M, T, W at the Crusoe Hotel in Lower Largo.  If there are any errors and/or omissions, please let me know ASAP.

Goodale                   S, M, T
Disher                      S, M, T
Muldoon                   S, M, T
Mitchell                    S, M, T
Bourgeois                 S, M, T
Cole                         S, M, T
Mallilieu                    S, M, T
Izatt                          S, M, T
McElroy                   S, M, T
Fairey/Ulmer             S, M, T
Leefe                            M, T, W
Dickson                             T
Waugh                              T

Secondly, the pre- and apres-golf events are planned as follows:

Sunday evening:

Dinner at the Anstruther Fish and Chips Bar and golf at Anstruther (both optional) TBD, but probably starting at 6-7pm.  Evening libations at the Crusoe whilst watching the final round of hte US Open.

Monday Evening:

Semi-formal (no gimmie caps, "smart casual" dress, with jacket and tie preferred (if available) at the Crusoe Hotel.  Probably an informal speech/round table discussion involved with the John Mitchell, Captain of Lundin and Malcolm Campbell, Lundin Member, noted golf writer and Chairman of the James Braid Society.

Tuesday Evening

Informal dinner at the Crusoe, staggered between 8-9:30 to reflect later afernoon times at Elie.  Oxford Union style debate on the existential value of the Alps hole at Merion in the bar after dinner.

Wednesday Afternoon

Apres round gala lunch at the Lundin clubhouse, starting as soon as the first match gets in and ending whenever.  Prize giving, recriminations, discussions about next years venue(s). etc.

Comments and thoughts very much appreciated.

Capn' Emeritus Ricardo

[Jason Topp]

I should be there for s, m and T as well

[Rich Goodale]

Just trying to see if you were paying attention, Jason.  You have a room at the inn.

[Bryan Izatt]

Rich,

Jerry McElroy and I will NOT be staying at the Crusoe.  We are booked into the HI Express in Glenrothes.  A high quality establishment (without the history of the Crusoe, no doubt  ) in a fine Scottish town (according to Martin).

And, we rustic colonists who are traveling light will have to try for the "smart casual" dress. No jackets and ties on this trip.

[Jason Topp]

I am happy to report that my poor play as of late has led to a big increase in my handicap, which is now an 8 at my course and as I understand it, you double the handicap in the UK so I will be looking for 16.

JASON
TOPP
Your Handicap
Index is:
6.8
as of 6/06/08


Click Here for Your Score History and More Handicap Information 

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

Jerry McElroy and I will NOT be staying at the Crusoe.  We are booked into the HI Express in Glenrothes.  A high quality establishment (without the history of the Crusoe, no doubt  ) in a fine Scottish town (according to Martin).

And, we rustic colonists who are traveling light will have to try for the "smart casual" dress. No jackets and ties on this trip.

Thanks, Bryan

Sorry for not reading properly your e-mail to me.  The Crusoe might be available if you and Jerry want to switch.  Let me know.  Single rooms, overlooking the sea, minimal stumbling distance from bar to bed.  Of course, how could that compete with Glenrothes, FBD and all.

Cheers

Rich

[Stan Dodd]

Rich,
Will you be driving the shuttle from Crusoe to Glenrothes?

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