[Tony_Muldoon]

"What's the buzz,
tell me what’s happening?
What's the buzz,
tell me what’s happening?”


Two weeks today and I can't wait.  IMs flying back and forward but little hard news.  I understand we have two Captains but have we agree which nations are competing for the cup?


Q which Buda participant recently played golf for “Sweden. B”?

Should we insist he stays with his new nationality?   

[Mark Bourgeois]

A few details:

1. Captains are Andrew Mitchell and I!

2. Expected battle lines are New World vs. Old World.  Interestingly, Old World will be required to play with 19th-century equipment, while New World will wrap its heels in bones of steel.

3. Several handicapping proposals have been floated.  Taking them one post at a time, question: has anyone used the Max Behr system of handicapping?

For those not familiar, it's a system designed for match play.  Tally up your pars and "better than pars" from a round of golf, giving yourself 1 point for a par and 2 points for birdies, eagles, double eagles (ha!).  Sum your points then deduct from 18.

For example, Bobby Jones scores 14 pars, 2 birdies, and 2 bogeys.  His handicap is scratch.

There's a modified version of Behr's system from GE Marshall of So Calif, where you score 1 point for bogey, 2 for par, 3 for birdie, 4 for eagle, and then deduct from 36.

Here's Behr's original article in the September 1930 Golf Illustrated wherein he proposes his system -- sorry for the poor quality! Had to break it into two parts:






Click on this sentence for the link to an OB Keeler article about the Georgia Golf Assn promoting it.

BTW There's a Bobby Jones connection as I believe this is how ANGC handicaps its members.  Also, A MacKenzie wrote favorably of it in Spirit of St Andrews!

I'll post the other proposals after I've got them figured out.

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

AwrightAwready, Tony.  Consider your persistent pestering to have paid off!

Some veterans of the event have been having a bit of e-mail chat recently, and Tony rightly suggested that we put it up on GCA for information and participation by the broader community.  We are currently going through a mind-numbing excercise occasioned by Capn' Mark's provocative attempt to introduce Max Behr's wacky handicapping system into the proceedings.  We think he has been brainwashed by Tom Paul, and wish his all the best in his recovery.

Firstly, for the unitiated, BUDA is the Budapest Cup, one of the most ancient and sacred GCA.com events, whose 6th incarnation is being held in the East Neuk of Fife the period of June 15-18.  The competition is contested in a Ryder Cup format, with 6 4 balls and 6 foursome matches on the first two days and then 12 singles matches on the third day (June 18).  Matches are usally scheduled over both a primary and secondary venue, and in the past have been held at:

2003 Dornoch (Brora)
2004 Painswick
2005 Littlestone (Deal)
2006 Hoylake (Wallasey)
2007 Alwoodley (Moortown)

BUDA VI will be held a Lundin Links (Mon and Wed) and Elie (Tuesday).  BUDA Central will be at the Crusoe Hotel in Lower Largo.  28 people have signed up as of today, split roughly into teams as follows:

USA

Mark Bourgeois (Captain)
Craig Disher
Mike Whitaker
Rich Goodale
Bill McBride
Joe Buehler
Joe Fairey
Mike Mazenko
Bill Linne
Jason Topp
Stan Dodd
Darren Kilfara
Fred Ulmer

Rest of the World

Andrew Mitchell (Captain)
Mark Pearce
Ian Dickson
Andy Levett
Martin Bonnar
Tony Muldoon
Gary Slatter
Conrad Gamble
Lloyd Cole
Peter Mallilieu
Nick Leefe
Derek McKillop
Bryan Izatt
Jerry McElroy
Ian Waugh

The Prequel to the event will be a fish and chips at the world famous Anstruther Fish Bar, followed by 9 holes of golf at the local course and libations thereafter, accompanied by a viewing of the last round of that satellite tournament scheduled in San Diego that weekend.

Secondly, while we do have 28 players, not all are playing all five rounds, so there are some spaces available on most days.  If anybody out there plans to be near Fife two weeks from today and wants to be a part of golfing history, let us know and we'll see if we can accomodate you.

Thanks, Tony

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Just a report in from the advance party for BUDA VI.

Played Lundin yesterday in an Open in glorious sunshine, and the course was like others I've seen this year--a curious combination of dry and spongy.  Lots of the fairways are cracked and burnt, but the greens are full of thick grass and softer and slower than normal this time of year.  Hopefully we will get some more warmth and sunshine over the next two weeks, but today it is pissing down with rain.  If it's like this at Anstruther, I'm going straight from the chippie to the Hotel bar!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Rich can I be the first to thank you for making this a reality.  Lots of work has gone on behind the scenes and I know many people have this as the highlight of their golfing year.  I’m looking forward to being the first to fill your glass in thanks.

Appropriately we will be playing two courses originally laid out by Old Tom in this the centenary year of his death.  We also a little early because as clubs, and courses in their current form, their centenaries are in 2009.

Plenty of info and history below.

http://www.lundingolfclub.co.uk/index.html

http://www.levengolfingsociety.co.uk/index.htm

Can anyone find some good pictures of the courses?



Things to do apart from playing golf.

Fans of the once well known beat combo “The Teardrop Explodes”, will know that Julian Cope has now got other interests.
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/178/

[Mark Bourgeois]

Don't tell me we'll need pitch mark tools, Rich?!


Rich is slaying Max Behr over on the private email, so I thought it only fair some of his contemporaries still alive on GCA.com could come to his defense.

Rich wrote:

Mark et. al.
 
Both USGA/GHIN and CONGU also count hole handicaps, through the use of Equitable Stroke Control (USGA) and Stableford equivalent handicapping (CONGU) so in both cases "outlier" holes are effectively treated as "blobs."  The real difference between the two systems is that CONGU requires that all scores submitted be done so strictly under the Rules of Golf and witnessed by another player (Marker) whilst the USGA effectively lets players count any and all scores they want to, without effective validation.
 
Another important point is that CONGU handicaps are full handicaps (i.e. effectively already incorporating "slope").  USGA has "indices" which need to be adjusted for slope.  On courses such as Lundin and Elie (slopes of 130 or so), someone with a USGA index of 7.0 would have a playing handicap of 8.
 
Cheers

Rich, if I understand correctly, you raise two issues:
1. The validity of USGA and CONGU systems to match-play handicaps.
2. The comparability of USGA and CONGU systems.

I think in both cases the answer is, it depends -- under certain circumstances you are right, but not so under others.

Issue 1
I think for low markers the double-bogey limit under ESC helps fudge but does not solve the essential problem, and when handicaps dictate fixed ESC scores like 8 the distortion may grow significant.  ESC truncates the upper distribution by setting a bound; however, the underlying distribution remains and can produce distortions.  Scorecard hole ratings simply cover the distribution of allotted shots but do not establish the handicaps in the first place.

Two examples:
Example 1: player scores 3 birdies, 3 pars, but shoots a 90 on a par 72 course.  Under the Behr system, this player's handicap is 9; under USGA his (course) handicap is...much higher.

Example 2: player plays first 8 holes in +17, then runs off 9 pars and 1 bogey for a 90.  Behr System handicap is 9; USGA course handicap again is much higher.

The USGA handicap is appropriate to stroke play but in match play, with a USGA handicap, this is the guy the handicap chairman chooses to partner with!

Issue 2
Absolutely USGA handicaps can be applied to stroke play in Scotland, thanks to Dean Knuth's rating of the courses over there. As to the comparability of USGA to CONGU, for starters let's just say the handicap player from Lundin Links travels much better than the handicapper from Golf House!  The CONGU handicap of someone who plays in tons of tournaments on courses of average difficulty on the other hand might well be "comparable" to a USGA handicap index.

...I think.

Regards
Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

By the way -- Bob Crosby picked this up first (a little while ago he started a thread) -- did anyone (other than Bob and those like Rich G who posted) pick up in the Max Behr article posted above this little gem:

"Incidentally, par was invented in Scotland the night before the Open Championship of 1870."

Must've been one hell of a party...

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tony

Many pictures of each at Frank Pont's site, www.golfarchitecturepictures.com. As I have no idea what I am looking at, perhaps you or someone experienced could pull out a few and explain the charms:

http://golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Elie/index.htm

http://golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Lundin/index.htm

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Fans of the once well known beat combo “The Teardrop Explodes”, will know that Julian Cope has now got other interests.
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/178/

"Alex, I'll take 'The Age of Modern Antiquarius' for $200."

"And the answer is: Fine in Scotland, Fined in Georgia."

"What is rock sodomy?"

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

I'm sure we can arrange an "off piste" excursion to Lundin Ladies Club for those who are of the Standing Stanes persuasion.

For another artistic reference, the hotel we will be staying at ("the Crusoe") is named as it is due to the fact that Lower Largo was the home of Alexander Selkirk who was Daniel Defoe's inspiration for "Robinson Crusoe."

Rich

[Bryan Izatt]

As a neophyte Buda cupper, should I expect that there will be further scheduling information forthcoming before the event, or should we just show up on Monday morning before the first tee time (which I assume is still the same as the November, last year, thread)?  Seems unlikely that we'll make it for the Anstruther and chippie outing (at what time?) since we'll be "competing" in the Hawklaw Tankard at Cruden Bay on Sunday afternoon.

Am I to understand that the background chatter about handicapping systems denotes an increasing level of competitive tension as the Cup approaches?  And, here I thought this was a "friendly".    

After the Tankard I might be able to give some input on how well our handicaps travel.  My friend Jerry will be playing Cruden Bay blind for the first time in the competition.  Any guesses on an over/under number for a 7 handicapper?  I was thinking 95, but 100 might not be out of reach. 

[Stan Dodd]

Bryan,
Took a friend to Cruden for the Challenge Cup a 9 hdcp and he shot 72 first time around in fiery links conditions. You never know.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bryan

We expect to see you on the beach Monday 06h00 for the OTM Memorial Swim!

Tee times begin at Lundin 09h16 but you'll probably see a lot of Pests show up as early as 07h00, the better to take advantage of probably the finest practice range Old Tom ever designed!

Pestilently,
Mark

PS The handicapping discussion should be taken to mean things are getting LESS serious - a very good thing given the recent state of civility on GCA.com.

Still working out the handicapping what-what, but until then count your pars (1 point each) and your birdies and eagles (2 points each)!

[Bryan Izatt]

Stan,

I'm comforted on Jerry's behalf.  He's the kind of streaky player who just might do something similar.  I think I'd be questioning your friend's handicap though.  Shooting 72 off a 9 handicap under tournament conditions, should warrant an immediate peer review.  You're not bringing him to the Buda, are you?  Should I be looking for a fella trailing sand behind him? 

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark,

Thanks for the info.  Funny, I don't remember any practice facility at all from when my wife and I walked past there a couple of years ago.  In any event, there's no intelligent life at 07h00 practicing.  Look forward to meeting you and the other Pests sometime before 09h16 in two weeks.

[Stan Dodd]

Not coming to Buda, but he too is a streaky player.
At the Buda you'll just get me leaking oil
My best round at Cruden was my 2nd and I have since played in 4 Challenge Cups never getting a sniff at match play.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan

There are so many BUDA "pests" playing at Cruden Bay on Sunday that they are thinking of renaming it the Bourgeois Tankard.  If you are playing in the afternoon, iot could be difficult to make it for the Anstruther game, particularly if you have to wait for Jerry to pick up the Tankard and make his prize-winning speech.  It's a good 2 hour drive from Cruden Bay to Lundin.  I can't remember if we have set a time for Sunday, but I think the fish supper will be at 7:30 to 8 and then golf afterwards as we feel like it.  Some people will be getting there earlier and maybe playing golf earlier.  It's all voluntary.  More important will be the GCA-bonding session later in the evening at the Crusoe Hotel

As for Monday morning, the 6am triathlon was cancelled long ago due to lack of interest.  I think we should all plan to get to the course by 8:45 at the latest.  I'm not sure when the Captains plan to make their pairings, but if it's more than 5 minutes before the first tee tiome it will be a world speed record for BUDAs.

All the best

Rich

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark will engage his counterpart in a discussion about the VORD theory, thereby stunning the ROW's Captain into making a pairings blunder. On the other hand, Rich's bon-vivant ways will prove infectious, and everyone from the US will be drunk. I give a slight edge to the Rest of the World, wishing I could be there but glad I won't be dragging them down.

Peter 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter

Welcome to the thread.  All BUDA courses are high-VORD.3 certified.

Mark

PS you've outed a member of my team as a traitor! Rich's job is to alcoholize the OTHER team.

PPS Vy disappointing to see zero interest on here about what will be, if adopted, a major (= loony) GCA.com experiment.  Won't you take a crack at commenting on Max Behr's handicapping system?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark -

I have an unnatural affection for Max Behr and his writings/ideas. It goes far beyond JK's notion of a man crush. I can't comment on his handicapping system save to say that it's brilliant.  It reflects a champion golfer's understanding of the game leavened by a true sportsman's acceptance of human failings and an appreciation for the vagaries of nature. I say adopt it, Mark B -- if you won't, no one will. (You have to be very much inside to risk being that far outside...just like Maxie was!)

Peter     

[Tony_Muldoon]

Welcome Bryan it will be great to see your long ball on the links again.  Hopefully my "chickenwing" is a thing of the past and all other similarly useful swing tips will be gratefully recieved.

Peter is right, excitment is mounting.  Clubs are being polished and shoes cleaned accross the continents.  Early parties have already arrived on these shores and I dare Lloyd Cole to "Big up Buda" when he appears on R2 (Radcliffe and Marconie) tommorrow night.

[Brent Hutto]

B.I.,

Don't misinterpret this half-assed stroke hawking as "pressure" regarding results of the Buda matches. The only pressure comes if you have the misfortune of being drawn as an opponent for a certain left-handed Yorkshireman who can not be defeated in a fair game. Even pitting two RoW player's better ball against him simply results in an even more embarrassing failure.

But otherwise, the games are very relaxed.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark,

I tried the Behr handicapping system today.  My index is 5.6.  My round today (very atypical) was 4 birdie (almost a lifetime best), 4 pars and 10 bogies.  I'm not usually that erratic.  In either Behr scoring system that works out to a 6.  Based on a sample size of one, seems like no difference.  I presume you'd want to base the Behr system on best 10 of last 20 or some such.  I'm betting it wouldn't make much difference.  Debate can ensue.  If you drink enough, you may see the wisdom of the current handicapping system rather than that musty old method. 

Perhaps we could get Lloyd to sing the national anthems before the matches.  Lend it a touch of class.

Tony, it'll be good to see you again.  Perhaps we'll be paired.  But, beware I might get another chickenwing picture.  Unless of course you've hit thousands of balls and retooled your swing in the last three years.

Are you suggesting I should clean my shoes before coming?  And, clean my clubs.  Unheard of.

Rhic,

Which other BUDAites are at the Hawklaw?  Wouldn't want them to scout out our weaknesses before the "serious" matches.

Our tee time is late morning, so, absent too much celebrating (unlikely) we will probably be in the Lundin Links area by early evening.  We'll  be staying in Glenrothes, which isn't too far away.  Perhaps we'll make the Crusoe, unless we're too despondent after the Hawklaw effort..

[Rich Goodale]

Byran

I lose track of extraneous things these days, like my car keys and who is playing at Cruden Bay,  but I think that Mssrs. Mitchell, Bourgeois, Levett and Pearce will be there.  Maybe one of them (or even David Moriarty) can chime in and correct me.

As for my role in the partaking of alcholic beverages, I am but a rank amateur compared to some of the pros in the British/ROW side.  Taking an Englishman, Scotsman or Irishman to a pub is like leading a horse to water.  Supplying them with drink is like taking coals to Newcastle.  Keeping up with them is more onerous than any labo(u)r of Hercules, but one can only try......

Rich

[Andrew Mitchell]

Bryan

I understand that the following of us are playing in Hawklaw Tankard at Cruden Bay:
Joe Fairey
Fred Ulmer
Mark Bourgeois
Mark Pearce
Tony Muldoon
Andy Levett
Myself

I think our time slots will be around 10.30 am.  The aim is then to get down to Anstruther (or Anster as the locals pronounce it) for a fish supper and 9 holes .

As the captain of the Old World I have stayed somewhat aloof from Mark's attempts to persuade us all of the merits of Behr's handicapping system.  This is in part due to the fact that I have never been able to understand any of Behr's writings.  I am still convinced that this is part of a New World conspiracy and so I am hoping to avoid falling into the trap

I have however applied the Behr system to my last two rounds.  My handicap index is 8.3.  Saturday's medal round produced no birdies, two double bogies, four bogies and 12 pars, so Behr has me at 6 and CONGU has me at 1 over net, potentailly getting 0.1 back!  Last night in a fourball betterball match, away at Halifax on a course I hadn't played in over 20 years,  I had contributed only 4 pars when we shook hands on the 15th green.  Does this round count given we only played 15?  Do I assume that 4/15 extrapolates to 5/18?

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