[Bill_Yates]

Paul,
You are absolutely correct in your thinking regarding the traffic flow on a golf course. And to answer your question: Yes, I have pace of play modeling computer program that helps me to determine and prove to my clients what the optimal starting interval should be for their course, and we use that to show them how to reduce or eliminate delays on the course and why by implementing the proper interval they will not lose money.  In fact, they quickly realize that by delivering a consistent high quality playing experience throughout every starting time during the day, they will increase demand and make more money. 

Our Pace Manager Systems program has worked successfully on many of the best courses in the world.  We even used it to consult with the R&A and improve the pace of play for the 2002 Open Championship at Muirfield.

Through our modeling, we have proven that in most cases that slow play is a problem that should be addressed first by implementing better management practices.  Then, and only after the course is properly loaded, can any player marshalling or incentive programs be fully effective. 

Check out my GCA interview for a more comprehensive look at my approach and philosophy regarding slow play, management and the impact of course design and technology on the pace of play.

[Chris Cupit]

FWIW, here is what I do--my club is an active fully private club that did 37,000 rounds last year.

1.  Our course was pace rated by the GSGA at 4 hours and 3 minutes--this assumes 90 rule and 4 average golfers from the regular mens' tees.

2.  Our club target MAX time is 4 hours and 10 minutes on weekends.  I point out this is like giving each group an extra 1/2 hole "cushion" and the GSGA pace rating already includes 7 minutes at the turn for a snack.

3.  I tee off one tee on weekends (crossovers are a killer and never really work) and I moved from 8 to 10 minute tee time intervals.

4.  The starter on the first hole notes the time the first ball is in the air and since 18 green is near by he also notes the time the flagstick goes back in the hole on 18.

5.  The first weekend group on the tee sheet that fails to play within 4 hours 10 minutes can not tee off the next weekend before 10:00 AM.  For all other groups, as long as you play within 4 hrs, 10min OR finish within 15 minutes of the group in front of you, no problem.  Otherwise, after 10:00 AM the next week for you!  So, stay up with the group in front of you OR play within pace and your group is fine.

6.  The tee sheet with the starting time and finishing time of each group is POSTED in the golf shop and locker room at the end of each weekend day

7.  We have regular clocks on holes 1, 10 and 18 telling you the exact time.

8.  I have 4 "Pace Clocks" on holes 4, 8, 12 and 16 that are set backwards so that each time you come to a silver pace clock, the time should be the time you teed off.  If you get to a pace clock and you had teed off at 9:00 and it says 9:05, you are behind!

9.  We do have marshals on the course in addition to the starter but they are in my opinion, the leat effective tool.  Plus, most people just ignore them or complain that they aren't "doing enough".

The reception by 95% of the members is great and they love that we are "actually doing something about slow play".  The other 5%, well they are the slowpokes

[Paul Payne]

Hats off to Mr. Yates.

I just read your interview and it was truly fascinating. I realize we have fun bashing each other and everybody else over slow play but it is interesting to see a little analysis put to the problem. I thought your section on par sequencing was very enlightening.

I am curious, of all the clients you work with what percentage of them actually follow your recommendations over the long term? I assume there must be a tug of war over the economic impact (or precieved impact) of increasing the time between groups. Has this been a struggle?

Also, I assume a private club or high end resort might be more inclined to follow these practices because of reasons that are more about the experience than economics. Have you guys had much success with the typical muni or public course with a currently high rate of play? Does a faster round ie happier experience translate into more return trips and thus more rounds over the long haul?

[Patrick_Mucci]

There are a few of us PGA Professionals on this site, so this question is directed at all of us, and any of the rest who may be able to affect pace of play on courses..

--Why have we, as professionals come to accept slow play on our courses? Is it so much to require our guests to play golf in 4 hours?

--Why do we feel like we can't tell people to pick up the pace when they are falling behind??

--Does the design of modern courses really affect pace of play? I feel like it does not, at least not to the point that many people think it does.

JKM,

You're in a difficult position.

You sell your services to the membership.
You depend upon the sale of merchandise and lessons.

Placing you at the front line of defense against slow play is unfair to you and your staff.

It's the club's job to police the membership, not yours.

If the club DOESN'T want to improve the pace of play, you can only do yourself harm by trying to do so.

The best method for improving pace of play, that I've seen, is the following.

1.  No mulligans are permited.
2.  Each foursome is clocked out when the last golfer tees off.
3.  Each foursome is clocked in when the last golfer walks off of # 18.

If a foursome takes more than 4 hours, or finishes more than 8 minutes after the proceeding group, the entire foursome is deemed to have played a SLOW round.

A letter is then sent to the entire foursome.

It states that they have been recorded as having played a slow round.
It further states that if any one of them are recorded as having played a SECOND SLOW round, they will not be able to tee off before 2:00 pm on the next TWO (2) following three day weekends (fri, sat & sun)

A "Mulligan" is deemed to be a slow play violation and the culprit is sent a slow play letter.

Key to this system are several facets.

A.  Once one group plays in more than 4 hours it's almost impossible to get successive groups to play in less than 4 hours, thus, the differential between the groups becomes critical.

B.  Early groups are told to play in 3.5 hours.

C.  Strict enforcement.

D.  This removes all potential on the course conflicts between staff and
      members.  No need for rangers, staff, etc., etc..

E.   A small, tough committee is in charge and they report to one person,
      the President of the club.  Excuses, such as the dog ate my homework,
      fall on deaf ears.

TRY IT, YOU'LL LIKE IT

[Sean_A]

I don't know what the answer is to slow play because I tend to believe it is a cultural happenstance.  I don't mean cultural in terms of countries, but cultural in terms of how folks play the game either as individuals or as groups - everybody is different.  There are many reasons why people are slow and I don't think any of the ones mentioned so far pertain to me.  I have recently come to consider myself a slow player.  It only took 15 or so years to realize this!  The reason I am slow is because I walk slowly - I hate to feel I am being rushed especially as I am paying for it!  Otherwise, I think I do everything else about medium pace.  Unfortunately, because I am slow, I cheat by walking up the wings as people play.  These days, it seems there are loads of people who don't like playing partners walking the wings.  It may be partly due to being put off and it may be partly due to less opportunity for conversation.  I don't really know, but I do know that if  can walk the wings on a course that is well designed for walking I can be in a 4 ball that comfortably finishes in 4 hours. 

As a by the by, I think one of the reasons we are "so slow today" is because we compare ourselves to the old days.  As we all know, historically, 2 ball was the game of choice.  These days, 4 ball has taken over.  In the past few years I have been won over to 2 ball games - especially on difficult courses.  There is nothing worse than searching for balls on every hole - and this is going to happen with a typical tourista group on a fairly hard course. 

My solutions for speeding up play:

-10 minute intervals or allow the group to leave the 1st green before teeing off

-more 2 ball play (I know JakaB hates 2 ball - but so what - if he wants to cultivate friendships it should be done more in the bar rather than on the course)

-play shorter, better designed courses

-eliminate carts (or at least make cart use contingent upon the weather allowing 100% access to all parts of the course)

Ciao

[John Moore II]

Pat--the only problem with your solution in my case, and the other course in my area is that the trouble/slow play groups are all outside groups, not members. If its all members, your solution is excellent, but in my case, it just wouldn't work.

--I like the idea of coupons the best however.

[Rick Shefchik]

My observation has been that the slowest groups take most of their time between the tee and the green, and somehow manage to speed up significantly while putting.

Maybe the better players who take too long are primarily guilty on the greens, but when I'm behind four incompetents who are playing at a five-hour plus pace, it's their inability to move rapidly from shot to shot that eats up most of the time.

[Garland Bayley]

...
That's 280 pre-shot routines a round.

If they just waste an extra 10 seconds each before they hit with whateverthehell they're doing, whether it's lining up cheater lines, taking an extra swing or two, huffing and puffing, sachaying up to the ball and meticulously placing their feet, or whatever:

That's 2,800 seconds.


 ...

No wonder the US has a reputation for bad math. I'm sorry to break the news to you Dave, but you just botched the easiest multiplication problem possible.
 

[John Moore II]

Shivas--Yes, I think he will have to explain where you got the math wrong. Its correct in all points as far as I can tell. And 280 X 10 is 2800 unless I was taught wrong in school. However, I did go to a University known to be one of the best in the United States for Engineering and Mathematics, so I feel like I have learned well.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Since I've made the decision to not ever bother responding to our dear friend Garland, perhaps somebody else on this board with better math skills than mine could vindicate the United States in terms of mathematics by explaning what else 280 X 10 could possibly be.   

Sorry Dave,

An extra 10 seconds, 280 times in a round is only an extra 46 minutes and 40 seconds.


OH WAIT ... 46 minutes and 40 seconds = 2800 seconds = 280x10seconds.
 

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry,

I guess it was me that botched the math. Somehow I read his result as 28000.

EDIT: I really need to see the eye doctor about my double vision problem!
 

[Garland Bayley]

Any way, now that I have botched the math thing, I guess I will post my thought that brought me to this thread.

My motto has become, "I'm not good enough to play slow. "

I suppose an alternative would be, "I'm not good enough to play slow (and neither are you)."

[DMoriarty]

Shivas and Joe Bausch,

I think public courses are hesitant to provide refunds or coupons or credits as they don't always understand that this may be beneficial in the long run.   Also, I imagine that those being forced to pay extra will be a little miffed when they have to do so because of a slow single they picked up, or because of the group in front of them.   

Here is part of my idea from years ago that aims more at encouraging the faster golfers to play earlier and then hopefully working the fast play policy back through the day.

Public access players often face two related problems at affordable, quality designs:  slow play and the scarcity of tee times.  One exacerbates the other-- miss out on the early morning times and you are much more likely to suffer through a 5 hour round.

The proposal is simple and is basically a modified version of Pete Galea's laudable Fast Play Tuesday's . . . Sundays etc. where golfers finishing in less than 4 hours get a free drink:

If a foursome finishes in under 4 hours on the weekend, they receive a "priority tee time" for the weekend after next. (Cant be the next weekend bc those times are already gone.)  The priority time would simply consist of the opportunity to make an early time in advance of the general public.) 

The idea is that diligent golfers who play regularly would begin to dominate the early weekend times, thus setting the pace for the rest of the day. Hopefully, over time, more and more regular golfers would occupy the regular times, and the block of faster players could expand.  The course could build a regular, returning client base, and the nomadic pub-links golfer might eventually feel a sense of loyalty and community that is often missing from public access golf.  Or he might at least worry about losing his early spot.

A few Cons: 
--In the beginning there would be much complaining about the pace of preceding groups ("Not fair! We would have made it, but for the snails in front of us!")  The starters would have to draw a firm "no excuses" line in the sand, and let people know that it is somewhat a luck of the draw proposition.  Also, over time, this problem might work itself out, as slow golfers are weeded out.
-- There might be some vigilantes marshalling on the course ("Speed up or get the hell out of my way!")    Obviously, you wouldnt want this to get ugly, but on the other hand it might help laggards hurry along if they knew that they were costing those behind a good tee time.  A little positive peer pressure.

[Peter Pallotta]

When I was in school I never studied/prepared enough for exams, or gave myself enough time to write papers. Of course, I was just protecting my ego, i.e. if I got a "B" I could still tell myself that I would've gotten an "A"  if only I'd put in the time. A few years later, I realized that this was an immature and ultimately self-defeating approach to protecting oneself.  Nonetheless, when I started playing golf, I immediately reverted to that method, and it keeps my happy (if deluded) to this day. I never want to take so long preparing for a shot that I can't tell myself "I would've hit that better, if only...."

Peter

[Jason Connor]

In a way it seems like a failure of the free market to me.  Seriously. 

I was always amazed that before all the new no smoking in restaurants and bars laws, that there weren't more bars with no smoking policies.

If there was a string of bars and one had a no smoking policy, that's where I'd go to meet a friend after work.  Sure the smokers will never come, but you don't want them anyway.  And there are plenty of non-smokers to fill your bar stools.  But the free market never offered a solution to this niche market.

Likewise, I'm surprised that no golf course has tried to satisfy this.  Obviously few people like to play slowly. And everyone complains about it.

[Kalen Braley]

Since I've made the decision to not ever bother responding to our dear friend Garland, perhaps somebody else on this board with better math skills than mine could vindicate the United States in terms of mathematics by explaning what else 280 X 10 could possibly be.   

Shivas...

There are only 10 types of people in this world...thusly,

280 X 10 = 560. 

[DMoriarty]

Shivas,

It may work, but I guess from my perspective I value access (read: good tee times) and pace of play more than $10 either way. 

Plus wouldn't you agree that many people just aren't going to care about the $5 or $10 bucks either way, and that they will be unwilling or unable to speed up?  It doesn't take too many of these groups to screw up the hole day for everyone.  That's why I wonder if tying pace to future tee times might be a better solution.  One could reward the fast players and build a block of fast players to start the day off right.  This way the incentive is more closely tailored to the type of player the course is trying to attract-- fast players who come back week after week.   

If others wanted to play slowly, they'd have to go somewhere else or see the times available to them get later and later. 

[Willie_Dow]

David

It is great to have you back on here with you're great mind for a discussion !

I think that pace of play is very important to the present future of golf.
New players just don't understand how play this game.  They are told to putt out to get a proper handicap, then they watch T/V and see the guy/girl hang over a putt and miss it.  Advise ?

The Golf Channel shows many variations of what I'm trying to describe !

Golf course design should think about this in detail for the future of it's growth.  How do we get off the first tee and keep things moving ?

Willie

[Jon Nolan]

Golf course design should think about this in detail for the future of it's growth.  How do we get off the first tee and keep things moving ?

We have a local muni which is a great example of how design can cause slow play.  It starts with a par-5 which isn't often reachable in two but 9/10 players disagree no matter their position or the conditions.  That's followed by a tough par-3 due to a severely sloped green which very few play correctly.  I've not timed it but I bet those two holes take on average about 45-50 minutes.  It takes the rest of the front nine for play to spread out and resume a respectable pace.

[John Moore II]

Jon--What course do you speak of? Sounds like a course I have played.

--But, yes, things like that can slow things down a good bit. Both courses at Foxfire in Pinehurst start off with very odd holes, that are difficult and really slow things down right out of the gate. Holes to start can be difficult, just not foolishly difficult. I think that true private clubs can be designed as wierd and difficult as one might want, however, public courses really need to be playable and able to move the golfers around in a speedy manner.

[Jon Nolan]

It is Bountiful Ridge in Bountiful, UT.

I think much of the problem could be solved by creating a little trouble up by the green on #1.  The reason everyone wants to go for it in two (even from beyond 250 yards) is there's simply no danger in doing so.   For most people it would take a career fairway wood but still they wait because... well, you never know.

Meanwhile, back at the tee, a group waits while the group in front of them waits for the group in front of them to play out from 50 yards short of the green.  Seemingly takes forever to play that hole. 

[DMoriarty]

Mr. Moore,

I really appreciate your attitude toward this issue.  I only wish more in your position shared it.

Mr. Dow,

I have no idea how to solve the entire problem.   Longer courses hurt, as do courses with excessive distance between tees, as do courses that are excessively and unavoidably penal and/or are not maintained to make finding errant shots possible.   The Tour pros are horrible role models, and many club pros are almost as bad.  The USGA pays lip service to the issue but that's about it.  I'd support a rule that cut the pros time allotment in half, and think the USGA ought to be pushing hard for much shorter rounds, and would support rule changes to require it, especially in their championships and USGA mandated tournaments.

The clubs and courses are probably in the best position to do something about slow play, but it will take  a realization on their part that ultimately it will be good for their bottom line and/or membership.  Bottom line is that if they allow slow play, then they will get slow play. 

I like some of the suggestions above, especially Patrick's and Chris Cupit's.  Shivas' could work as well, but to me the goal ought to be to build a solid customer base (or membership) that appreciates fast play and plays fast.  So I like incentives directly aimed toward these goals.

I missed Chris Cupit's post at first, but his approach seems to me to be somewhat similar to what I suggest.   My only point of disagreement would be with setting the acceptable round at as high as 4:10 minutes for morning play.   Why not knock it down to 4 or 3:45 as that would help play for the rest of the day?

Here is his post again.

FWIW, here is what I do--my club is an active fully private club that did 37,000 rounds last year.

1.  Our course was pace rated by the GSGA at 4 hours and 3 minutes--this assumes 90 rule and 4 average golfers from the regular mens' tees.

2.  Our club target MAX time is 4 hours and 10 minutes on weekends.  I point out this is like giving each group an extra 1/2 hole "cushion" and the GSGA pace rating already includes 7 minutes at the turn for a snack.

3.  I tee off one tee on weekends (crossovers are a killer and never really work) and I moved from 8 to 10 minute tee time intervals.

4.  The starter on the first hole notes the time the first ball is in the air and since 18 green is near by he also notes the time the flagstick goes back in the hole on 18.

5.  The first weekend group on the tee sheet that fails to play within 4 hours 10 minutes can not tee off the next weekend before 10:00 AM.  For all other groups, as long as you play within 4 hrs, 10min OR finish within 15 minutes of the group in front of you, no problem.  Otherwise, after 10:00 AM the next week for you!  So, stay up with the group in front of you OR play within pace and your group is fine.

6.  The tee sheet with the starting time and finishing time of each group is POSTED in the golf shop and locker room at the end of each weekend day

7.  We have regular clocks on holes 1, 10 and 18 telling you the exact time.

8.  I have 4 "Pace Clocks" on holes 4, 8, 12 and 16 that are set backwards so that each time you come to a silver pace clock, the time should be the time you teed off.  If you get to a pace clock and you had teed off at 9:00 and it says 9:05, you are behind!

9.  We do have marshals on the course in addition to the starter but they are in my opinion, the leat effective tool.  Plus, most people just ignore them or complain that they aren't "doing enough".

The reception by 95% of the members is great and they love that we are "actually doing something about slow play".  The other 5%, well they are the slowpokes

[John Moore II]

Dave--I think that often times us in the business try to enfore a policy, its just not as stringent as I would like. Plus, sometimes rangers on the course do not do what they need to do. Today, we had issues on the course, our ranger was out, we radio him every so often. We radio him once, he says everything is fine, then we come back 10 minutes later and his words were "its a f$#%ng disaster." So, how does it go from everything's fine to a disaster in 10 minutes?? It doesn't, he just wasn't paying attention.
--We (in the business) just do a poor job of puting in a reasonable pace, enforcing that pace, and making people leave if need be. Its just poeple being too scared to really enforce something.

[Doug Ralston]

Subject beaten to death in countless threads. It's sometimes slower than you would like ........ get over it, the World isn't perfect.

We need a thread about the joys of spending the day playing golf or something.

Doug

[Chris Cupit]

Subject beaten to death in countless threads. It's sometimes slower than you would like ........ get over it, the World isn't perfect.

We need a thread about the joys of spending the day playing golf or something.

Doug

Agreed about beating a dead horse.  But, the time it is taking to play now is KILLING the game.  I'd love to spend a day PLAYING golf but then in a day that means a lot of holes.  I don't want to spend 5 hours on a course to only play 18 holes--that's a day waiting not golfing

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