[Mike_Cirba]

I don't see the rudeness in pointing out that one cure to the perils of slow play is to make sure you have a foresome and enjoy the time spent on the course.  When you play alone do you take the time to remove the pin when you putt...I know I don't.

One problem created by singles and speedsters is that they don't know how to play through another group which leads to slow players giving up and not letting anyone through.  When going though you should never putt out or take more than bogey on the hole.  On the first flubbed shot, pick up, say thank you and move on.

John,

Yeah, I remove the pin, unless I'm 50 feet or more away.

I do agree with your "playing through" method, and that's what I do.  Most times I won't hit any more than the approaching shot.

More often though, if playing solo and not time-pressed, I'll just purposefully hang back, and many times some other less than foursome will catch up to me and join along.

[JMEvensky]

The USGA requires that an employee can NOT be the chairman of the Handicap Committee.  One reason for this is so that actions taken to reduce a players handicap will not be held back for fear of job action being taken.

In my opinion, the professional at a private club should also not be in charge of coming up with a pace of play policy or having to be the bad guy when it comes to enforcing it.  The Golf Committee should determine a reasonable pace of play policy and the professional should monitor play and report the frequent violators to them for action.

At most clubs where I've been a member, peer pressure was the predominant way that slow play was dealt with.  If a group was slow, the group or groups behind it would come in after the round and say something to them.  After hearing this a few times, the problem players would play faster. 

If it was one player in your group, you might say something or figure out ways to show them how to play faster.  I know one player who was pretty slow when he first started playing with my group and over the course of a couple of years, we got to the point where he was the first one to complain about how slow the group in front was.

On public courses things are different, but the course setup and other factors such as tee time intervals can play a big difference.  At Ghost Creek, just starting rounds on #10 rather than #1 resulted in about a 20-30 minute savings in average pace of play.  The back nine had less trouble so that players got off to a better start and played faster which tended to carry over to the front nine.

I agree with this 100%.Any time an employee(Head Pro) is forced to police employers(Members),nothing good will ever happen-especially for the Pro.

As stated by others,the only way to resolve slow play is through member-to-member peer pressure.There's a reason someone is appointed Green/Golf Chairman.

[Jason McNamara]

I think there are a couple things that slow golf or expedite it.  I agree with the fact that a lot of guys let pride get in the way and end up playing tees at 6500 yards or the tips when they should be at 6000 yards,  Distance will always add time to a mid or high handicap golfer. 

That's something that doesn't often get mentioned with respect to rounds in Great Britain.  People will comment how rounds there are in part faster because so many of the courses are 75+ years old,  with very short walks between holes.  And match play is faster, and a foursome is faster than a fourball.  All true. 

But let's also consider that a great many of those rounds are also played at the 6200-yd(ish) tees of the day (barring special dispensation), and if guests don't like it, well they don't have to play.

Jason

ps to George Blunt:  Thanks!

[John Moore II]

I can say that we do a totally poor job of maintaining pace of play on golf courses. And it is simply the fault of the golf professional staff (and I am speaking about my own 'brothers' here).

-I rarely have a problem with my members maintaining a pace. My members play in 3 hours, 4 at most and anything above that, I get the business from them. They play ready golf, and don't get so detailed about stupid formalities. The major problem with pace of play is tourist groups, and the fact that clubs like to claim that a good pace of play is 4 hours 15 minutes or something in that area. Its a foolish time standard, way too high, but somehow the USGA and the PGA has jumped on board and started to say that these paces are good times. My course is 'pace rated' at 4 hours 20 minutes. Tobacco Road is rated at 4 hours 30 minutes. Both times are far too long, yet no major governing organization feels this way.

-By the way, I played Country Club of North Carolina (Dogwood) today, played a 5some, myself, two of my assistant superintendents, the asst super from CCNC and one of the workers from CCNC. I played decent at best (78), and the other guys played very average, two probably shot 82ish, one probably shot 90, and the other did not break 100. We played from the tips (not my choice, btw) and played in less than 4 hours. This is a golf course with a rating of 75.5/140 and 5 average golfers played in less than 4 hours. Don't tell me you can't play golf fast!!!!!!!

[astavrides]

I can say that we do a totally poor job of maintaining pace of play on golf courses. And it is simply the fault of the golf professional staff (and I am speaking about my own 'brothers' here).

-I rarely have a problem with my members maintaining a pace. My members play in 3 hours, 4 at most and anything above that, I get the business from them. They play ready golf, and don't get so detailed about stupid formalities. The major problem with pace of play is tourist groups, and the fact that clubs like to claim that a good pace of play is 4 hours 15 minutes or something in that area. Its a foolish time standard, way too high, but somehow the USGA and the PGA has jumped on board and started to say that these paces are good times. My course is 'pace rated' at 4 hours 20 minutes. Tobacco Road is rated at 4 hours 30 minutes. Both times are far too long, yet no major governing organization feels this way.

-By the way, I played Country Club of North Carolina (Dogwood) today, played a 5some, myself, two of my assistant superintendents, the asst super from CCNC and one of the workers from CCNC. I played decent at best (78), and the other guys played very average, two probably shot 82ish, one probably shot 90, and the other did not break 100. We played from the tips (not my choice, btw) and played in less than 4 hours. This is a golf course with a rating of 75.5/140 and 5 average golfers played in less than 4 hours. Don't tell me you can't play golf fast!!!!!!!

those arent average golfers-especially if we are talking about public courses.  maybe 1 of 20 guys i get paired with breaks 100 at a course with that slope and rating.

[John Moore II]

asta--I put those scores down because thats what we shot,  but we didn't hole out every time. Mine is about right on, and so is my Super's. But the other guys would not have broken 100 holing the ball out everytime and that sort of thing.  We were in all respects average players.
--My point is, there is no excuse to take more than 4 hours to play a round of golf, none.

[Melvyn Morrow]

To J Kenneth Moore

From an understanding, gentle and passionate Golfer, a ray of hope and light.

The problem is becoming so frustrating that sever measures should be considered for immediate incorporation into the Rule of the Game. However, there maybe a simple but very quick way of improving the pace of play on golf courses overnight.

Forget carts, high tech aids, etc, it’s simple, all those who can and achieve driving long distances from the Tees should be culled, not to be confused with emasculation (as this has been found to improve distance) – but just a plain simple Cull.

This would immediately reduce the numbers on the course and allow those following to proceed in the time honoured manner of driving off the Tee once they see the players in front complete their second shot. Round times would drop to well under 4 hours.

If that is to drastic then I suggest we penalise those with electronic aids as they seem unable to operate these devices on the move unlike the human brain which has already resolved which club to use and approx distance the ball maybe from the target as it’s owner approaches the point of play. The penalty could be castration or again, if deemed to sever could just be a restriction to one game a week.

I expect with the combination of the above options, courses would have an average game time of 2.5 to 3 hours.

Ladies & Gentleman – problem resolved – the old simple ideas always work best.


Next Series will discuss the merits of Carts and penalty for driving under the influence whilst in charge of said carts.


For More details on ‘Problems on a Golf Course’ please see the Home Office White Paper No. 344543344/434443454 available at TOC c/o OTMjnr - Par excellence 69.  Note: - Only available while stocks last

[Ken McGlynn]

 

Here in the US, we're too enamored with the medal score. Reading a putt for a quad from every angle so we can maybe break 100 or 90 or whatever the score might be. What's the harm in just simply saying earlier..."fellas BIP." The number we eventually shoot is really irrelevant, this isn't professional tournament golf. In the UK, it's let's have a match, move along quickly, and go enjoy a pint(s).

[Richard Choi]

Ha

Here is another idea that will encourage faster play: MORE CHEATING!!!

Seriously, if people ignore more rules, faster they will play.

Hit the ball out bounds? Don't bother going back to the tee (or even hit another shot), just go where it went out, drop it and play.

You ball is in an impossible spot or buried in the bunker? Just use a foot wedge instead of trying to hack it out again, again, and again.

People always talk about how PGA Tour players are the model of decorum for how they call penalty on themselves. I say HOGWASH!!! If they were real sportsman, they would call time penalty on themselves whenever they fall behind, and I have NEVER seen that happen.

How do people feel about it on this board? Which is more important? Following the rules OR faster pace of play?

[Ken McGlynn]

Ha

Here is another idea that will encourage faster play: MORE CHEATING!!!

Seriously, if people ignore more rules, faster they will play.

Hit the ball out bounds? Don't bother going back to the tee (or even hit another shot), just go where it went out, drop it and play.

You ball is in an impossible spot or buried in the bunker? Just use a foot wedge instead of trying to hack it out again, again, and again.

People always talk about how PGA Tour players are the model of decorum for how they call penalty on themselves. I say HOGWASH!!! If they were real sportsman, they would call time penalty on themselves whenever they fall behind, and I have NEVER seen that happen.

How do people feel about it on this board? Which is more important? Following the rules OR faster pace of play?

Methinks, I don't want to meet Richard in the finals of a club matchplay event!!

[John Moore II]

Richard--I can really agree with that, just play away and get it over with. I personally like to play skins games, if you hit something really bad, just pick it up and be done. A lack of formalities on the course would do real wonders for pace on a dialy basis.

[Richard Choi]

Shivas,

Even if we take your logic as the gospel truth, you still have about 3 hours to walk the course for you to finish WELL UNDER 4 hours for a foursome. Which means all you have to do is to walk at a good pace (above 2 mph, not that hard).

Preshot routines, new hi-tech clubs, hi-tech equipments, cheater line, etc. are NOT what is causing the slow rounds. There are just too many people on the course and when just one group is too slow, nothing is done to speed them up which equates to 5 1/2 hour rounds for everybody.

When I am the first group teeing off, our foursome usually is done under 4 hours, usually no more than 3 1/2 hours. But that doesn't help me at all when I am playing during the prime time as playing fast just means that I am going to piss off the group in front of me.

Anything that requires EVERYONE to adopt, ain't gonna work. Most people on the course play fast enough. You need more buffers and you just need to be aggressive about dealing with the bottlenecks.

[Jim Thompson]

Shivas has it half right and so does Richard.  Poor course spacing / tee time intervals (under 9 minutes) is huge.  The other issue is the damn Nassau bet or any other game that punishes total strokes.  Some where on here is the solution for Hucks beloved Santa Theresa.

[Tom Huckaby]

Shivas has it half right and so does Richard.  Poor course spacing / tee time intervals (under 9 minutes) is huge.  The other issue is the damn Nassau bet or any other game that punishes total strokes.  Some where on here is the solution for Hucks beloved Santa Theresa.

Jim:  I appreciate the thought, but I've come to accept there is no solution for my beloved.  It's just an odd perfect storm of massive demand, tiny supply and golfers who don't know any better.  Such is Bay Area life.

Shivas:  you've played with me.  I don't think I have 5 seconds to cut from what I do before striking the ball.   Maybe two.   

[John Moore II]

Lets go a little farther from Shivas' mathematical assessment.

--Lets say to WALK a golf course involves 5 miles, a reasonable amount even for a residential course. I say that 3 miles per hour is a reasonable walking pace. Thats 1 hour, 40 minutes of a walking.

Sould it really take players more than 2 hours to hit their shots? Thats 20 seconds for each player to play each shot, if they all shoot 90. 20 seconds on a normal day is reasonable. I, myself think the PGA Tour guidelines are way off, with 1 minute/40 seconds to play shots. In that case, it will take those people over 4 hours to play.

--But again, is an average of 20 seconds per shot too much to ask for? I think not.

[Jason McNamara]

What's the total on 18+ shots per round where two guys in a cart pull up to the first ball, then the cart and driver don't move again until after that first guy hits?

[Jim Johnson]

It's all in the pre-shot routine.
Take four 80 shooters, averaging, for example 46 shots and 34 putts.
Maybe 10 of those putts are "brush-ins" where the routine gets bagged.
That's 70 pre-shot routines each.
That's 280 pre-shot routines a round.
If they just waste an extra 10 seconds each before they hit with whateverthehell they're doing, whether it's lining up cheater lines, taking an extra swing or two, huffing and puffing, sachaying up to the ball and meticulously placing their feet, or whatever:
That's 2,800 seconds.
Doesn't sound like a lot, does it?

It's 46.66 MINUTES added to the round.

This is the problem.  There is no doubt in my mind.

I agree with this. I golf regularly each Wednesday afternoon in Mens Night at our local muni, and most of the guys in our 12-man syndicate do not take a practice swing. They play fast. And we are always done in 4 hours or less. On the most popular muni in the area. With 7 1/2 minute tee-time intervals.

If we added what Jim T. refers to (9 or 10-minute intervals) I'm convinced our playing time would be closer to 3 1/2 hours. This, in the middle of the afternoon, on a busy day at the course.

[Mike_Cirba]

JJohnson,

You're absolutely correct.

I can't tell you how many times I've played with someone and watched them stand over the ball, early Sergioesquely, twitching and practice-swinging, and swaying and thinking to myself...HTFB!

[Joe Bausch]

I just wonder if there isn't some monetary method to encourage faster play at public courses.  For instance, give each person that finishes their round in 4h15m or less a 10 buck discount coupon for their next round.

[John Moore II]

Joe--That would not solve the problem, 4 hrs 14 minutes?? Thats not very good pace, at my course, its only 5 minutes below the rating. Give the coupon for rounds under 3 hrs 45 minutes and it might do something.

[JESII]

JKM,

I only read your opening post and one or two others (Shivas' math formula included) and wonder if you think the problem is any more than simply "the customer knows best".

There is so much competition for members and rounds played, how can a Professional staff feel they can force a group to play faster? The hope that the slow group will come back is stronger than the hope that 30 minute faster rounds will bring the group behind back, no? In other words, punishing a slow group virtually guarantees they will not come back, while the same action will not guarantee any group behind that slow group will come back.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe--That would not solve the problem, 4 hrs 14 minutes?? Thats not very good pace, at my course, its only 5 minutes below the rating. Give the coupon for rounds under 3 hrs 45 minutes and it might do something.

Well, ok, but I was just tossing out an idea that I've never seen done before, nor discussed.

[John Moore II]

JKM,

I only read your opening post and one or two others (Shivas' math formula included) and wonder if you think the problem is any more than simply "the customer knows best".

There is so much competition for members and rounds played, how can a Professional staff feel they can force a group to play faster? The hope that the slow group will come back is stronger than the hope that 30 minute faster rounds will bring the group behind back, no? In other words, punishing a slow group virtually guarantees they will not come back, while the same action will not guarantee any group behind that slow group will come back.

--Yes, I do think the problem is bigger than that. At my course, we have no problem telling groups to pick up the pace on busy days. The problem comes in the fact that our pace is 4 hours 20 minutes. We maintain that pace, but to me, that is terribly slow. On true private clubs, there is not much need to patrol pace of play, the members do a very fine job of doing that themselves, and they tend to play faster anyway. I have never taken more than 4 hours to play a round of golf at a private club. The problem is that an acceptable pace has gotten higher and higher and we manage to enforce a pace that is too slow. Its like law enforcement enforcing a 45mph speedlimit on an interstate. Yeah, they are enforcing something, but its unreasonably slow. Thats the problem.

[JESII]

What are the consequences to those groups you "tell" to pick up the pace?

What would be their reaction if your target was 4 hours instead of 4:20? And you aggressively enforced it?

[Paul Payne]

I hate slow play as much as anybody. That being said, has anybody ever modeled pace of play on a golf course?

I am asking because this reminded me of an article I read a few years ago (mostly boring and technical) about modeling traffic during rush hour conditions. What was interesting is that they found there was no external source for traffic grinding to a halt on the freeway. In other words if everyone just zipped along at 55 on the next guys tail, life would be just fine. The problem is that as soon as the first person merely taps their brakes it causes a ripple effect that grows not shrinks as it moves away from the source. You can imagine the compounding affect of many brakes being tapped.

This was the basis for a lot of work that has gone on in developing smart cars which can take over many of the fine adjustments in traffic to help resolve some of our human over-reaction.

OK.... what has this got to do with us? I wonder if the par three and short par four holes on any golf course work like that "tapping of the brakes"? If the normal flow is to wait until the group ahead clears from range and then you fire away, these holes would interrupt that flow by causing you to wait an extra shot or two or more before you can go. It seems the only solution would be to space groups out far enough apart that they will not get caught up in these natural bottlenecks.

I wonder if even under the best conditions with good fast players that we still might see play slow to a crawl because of this. I would be curious to see the result of a study, although it is far more rewarding to blame the portly guy up front who just set down his third beer in order to line up his putt from four angles while his cigar burns a hole in the rug.

Any thoughts on this?

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