[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Several of the contestants, when interviewed, refered to the conditions as brutal, stating that if it wasn't the British Open that they would have walked off the course.

Players complained that they couldn't feel their hands, with the cold, wind and rain, sort of like your answer to why there aren't many artic courses.

I like the addition of the elements, but playing in a cold hurricane would not be my idea of a good golfing challenge.
Discretion is the better part of valor.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

When I played The Old Course in July a number of years ago, it was 50 degrees and raining sideways the first 12 holes, until it finally calmed towards evening and the thick fog rolled in.  Umbrellas were useless and we couldn't have gotten much wetter or colder.  

Yet, it remains one of the most enjoyable days in my life.  Pars were cherished and those holes that were bogeyed or worse only enhance my recollections.  

Should I have stopped play that day?  Should the Open have halted play yesterday?  

Ideally, it would be nice if everyone played under the same conditions, but that's almost never possible in tournament golf, even if you think about those going out later in the day having to deal with more spike and pitch marks on the green.  Still, Els had to play in a lot of the nasty stuff, and he seems to have recovered nicely.  

I think you'd agree that champions find a way.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I think you'd have a different view of the day had you played the course many times before and were tied for the lead in a medal play tournament, playing under bad conditions, and, as you holed out on 18, the sun came out making for a perfect golfing day for your competitors.

The weather that hit TIger was extreme, unusual, and relatively brief.

Ernie Els looked like he was wearing short sleaves with a sweater vest, Tiger Looked like he was in the Artic during a rainstorm.

I think there is a difference between bad weather and extreme weather.

I never advocated altering the tournament.

[Bruceski]

Great finish! Ernie Els is a great champion, and his win helped make this tournament memorable. His 72 on Saturday was very impressive.

The irony: Els winning his third major will only serve to increase Tiger's reputation. Now the bozos who claim Tiger has no competition like Jack did will have to zip it.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Saturday's tempest was what we all wanted;  for the course, Scotland, realism, luck, energy, seeing who could adapt and who couldn't.  But, as bad as the weather seemed on television, the gusts were barely reaching 20 mph.  I think most of us have played in fuller conditions and have been energized by it.  It brought back some great memories of the character that Scotland has. Seeing those guys struggle out there was cool, and not in a Schadenfreude kind of way.  Lead changes galore with a roster packed so tight that it could have been won by the top 30(?) places from Saturday.  I was never bored but only irritated by the ads nauseum.  
  The British Open rules!  

[Paul_Turner]

Els is a great champion, and he saw enough of the bad weather on Saturday so nobody can question its legitimacy.  At last he managed to grind out a win!  He's been pretty painful to root for over the past few years.

The interviews of Els and Gary Evans were refreshingly honest too.  None of this self deceiving stuff that we've seen so many times from others.  Evans admitted he was terrified and Els that he was lucky.

[Matt_Ward]

For what it's worth --

I like top see the boys tested but when EXTREME elements dictate outcomes (Saturday's weather) I have to take a pass. I'm glad Ernie won but when LUCK is elevated to such a degree I don't believe you get a fair indicator of the talents that are present.

Second, what was the R&A doing with separating the four players into two groups for the playoff? That was insane!!!!
Anytime players tie they MUST play in the same group to avoid giving any person an advantage in either going first or playing last. THIS WOULD NEVER HAD HAPPENED IN THE USA AND I SIMPLY DUMBFOUNDED BY THE LOGIC OF IT.

And yes, if there were 30 players tied I say they all play together.

Did anyone else have an issue with this?

[Bruceski]

My recollection from a PGA Tour event (the LA Open?) last year is that a playoff at the Riviera CC featured 5 or 6 contestants, all teeing off together, and with Robert Allenby prevailing. Is my memory correct?

[Matt_Ward]

Bruceski:

You are quite correct.

I also witnessed an LPGA playoff in 1979 at the Upper Montcialr CC in Clifton, NJ (Coca Cola Classic) when Nancy Lopez won a five-way playoff in which all the players played together. The others were the legendary Mickey Wright, Hollis Stacy, Bonnie Bryant and Jo Ann Washam.

I cannot fathom how one can logically separate players. There is an advantage whether you play ahead or behind depending upon situations. You must play as a group to experience the outcomes as they happen and not have the benefit in seeing who holes out first or vice versa being able to react to what is done in front of you.

[Paul Richards]

I hope this is a springboard for Ernie Els to become the "Arnold Palmer" to Tiger as Jack Nicklaus!  His three majors, his gutsy performance, all lend credibility to his quest to be the "guy who challenges Woods!"

[Paul_Turner]

I just don't understand all this complaining about the weather.  Like Mike Cirba states, you need a sense of adventure!

Can any of The Open contestants seriously claim that they could have beaten Ernie but for an unlucky tee off time and the Saturday weather?  Today, the players who were playing best were at the top.  What's a better indicator than that?  The really lucky ones like Garica and Rose were never in it.  

It was most compelling tournament of the year by far.

[Paul Richards]

Hey, last July 4th or so, we played 36 at Muirfield under exactly the third round conditions, and we survived!

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward:

I too am surprised that they broke the four man playoff down to a two and two playoff when a four man single group would have been fine. But you'll never see any tournment committee play 30 players off in a single group.

I've been involved in all kinds of playoffs over the years both playing and officiating and they are always broken down into manageable groups period.

Stroke play playoffs are just like stroke play and the groups and the players ability to know what's going on is the same as the tournament's stroke play format in groups. Some people tend to think a playoff becomes inherently a match play type of thing but it's still stroke play and the groups are handled in basically the same manner and logically so.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

Don't know who you were listening to but all the player interviews I heard not a one of them suggested or implied that anyone should have stopped or suspended the tournament on Saturday because the weather was so bad.

I heard a lot of them say it was some of the worst weather for 7-9 holes they could remember competing in but not one of them said they shouldn't have been playing.

Els was pretty representative of the players opinions as far as I'm concerned. He simply said; "That's just links golf, the Scots like to see us tested in those kinds of conditions and today for a time we were". But he never remotely implied they shouldn't have been playing and I didn't hear a single pro suggest such a thing.

Personally I was impressed how calm and philosophically all of them seemed to be about it.

Woods, I thought was very honest and philosophical (even humorous) about it and his score too, saying; "I just hit a lot of very bad shots on a very bad weather day." Not even remotely an excuse just an honest admission of a reality the viewing world had just seen!

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

Good point.  Tiger didn't whine about the weather, he just admitted that he played bad.

No one has brought up Sergio Garcia's Bethpage comments about Woods "getting the good weather draw" at the US Open.

Sergio, I guess the R and A didn't give Tiger the best weather this time?

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

Beg to differ with you. A playoff is different for the very reason that it is a playoff. It is not the same as a stroke play version whereby players are paired according to score. You play as a group to ensure that all situations are faced "at the same time" by the players involved. Once you do something different you have gone beyond the proper scope of what constitutes basic fairness.

Clearly, you will not get a playoff of 30 players tieing for the top so the logistical considerations outlined with that many players is more fantasy than probability.

When you split players you have created an "advantage" that should not be created by the governing committee. I don't doubt Ernie was the best player but it was clearly to Levet's advantage to play first and put up a score and clearly if he had finished with a par-4 on the closer on the first four holes the pressure on the second group would have only intensified.

I give the R&A credit for the fou-hole playoff but believe they need to rethink their position on splitting playoffs.

[Brian Phillips]

Matt,

Although I don't agree with the split I feel the advantage could have gone either way.  If the front players had finished with bogeys then the 2nd pairing if were level par could play the hole more cautiously coming down the last.  The front pair had no idea on what score they needed so that is unfair as well.

They drew lots to decide who was paired with who and which pair would go out first.  Pretty fair to me.

It can work either way.  I think the reason it was done this way is because a four way playoff has never happened before so the R & A probably hadn't an idea on how they should do it.

This Open was one of the best ever and that's that...nothing more to be said.

Brian.

[Brian Phillips]

I have just checked the tee times for Saturday and they were as follows:

Woods 14:30
Levet  14:40
Hansen 15:10
Els 15:30

That means there was only 1 hour between Tiger going out and Els.  That to me is pretty fair.  That is only 3 holes playing time.  I then checked the scores by these two players on the same holes to see if the weather had made a big difference...guess what no!!

Els started par, bogey, par, bogey, bogey, bogey for the first 6 holes = +4

Woods started bogey, par, par, bogey, double bogey, bogey for the first 6 holes = +5

Woods lost it on a bogey run on the back nine wheras Els only had one bogey and managed to bring it back with birdies on 11, 13, 16 and 17.

I can't understand people saying that it was unfair...

Brian

[THuckaby2]

I'm never going to say anything in this is "unfair" - golfers ought to take their lot and live with it... but there is indeed one big ommission in your post, Brian.

Els teeing off an hour later meant he played the last 5-6 holes when the weather cleared for the most part... Tiger only got 17 and 18 in decent weather.  That's a fairly substantial break.  Tiger and the groups right around him did get the absolute worst of the weather for the greatest number of holes.  No excuses, that's just the way it was... but this does need to be noted.

I'm most impressed with Levet, actually....

TH

[texsport]

My views of THE Open!

It was a clearer than ever why these guys can't beat Tiger-there's not a finisher in the bunch!

Any tournament that calls itself a major has got to do their utmost to make conditions as equal for all competitors as they can. Saturday was an abomination and a disgrace which would not happen on the PGA Tour or in a USGA event. If you look at the total scores of all players for the three rounds excluding Saturday, Tiger and Harrington were lowest with 10 under.

How can anyone believe that playing in a driving wind with wet, knee-deep rough, where nobody can even attempt to hit a driver is a test of golf medal play golf? The courses over there were designed more for match play golf.

As played this weekend, The British Open was not a major tournament because luck of the tee time on Saturday had way too much influence in determining the final outcome.

Texsport

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

I also checked the last 6 holes and found out the following:

Els : 13th birdie, 14th bogey, 15th par, 16th birdie, 17th birdie, 18th par  = -2

Woods : 13th d.bogey, 14th bogey, 15th par, 16th par, 17th birdie, 18th par = +2

A 4 shot difference.  

However, lets presume that Tiger was 3 holes ahead which means that when he came off the 18th Els was starting 16th or finishing the 15th.  The difference between them on those holes is only one shot.  

I was most impressed with Hansen.

Brian

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

I'd say the four shot difference is the key here - but thanks for the data anyway!  Each player played 17 and 18 in decent weather, so throw out those.  Els played 13-16 in decent weather, Tiger in horrible stuff.  Thus the difference, to me anyway.

It truly doesn't matter in any case, this is just for my odd curiousity really.  And you're right, Hansen was impressive also.  Gotta love those Danes!

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt:

I agree with you that in a sudden death playoff, all participants should be in the same group (though I've been in some of those 9 players for 7 spots in championship flight playoffs in which the groups have been split; it's not ideal, but that's the way most clubs do it.)

In the four-hole stroke playoff format, however -- particularly at a course like Muirfield, where each player can usually see what's going on in front of or behind them -- I don't have a problem with sending them out 2 and 2. I wouldn't have minded a foursome, either, but the 4-hole medal playoff seems like an extension of the original 72-hole medal format. If the four players had ended up tied after the 4 holes, I hope the R&A would have sent them out together for sudden death.

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward:

You said that in stroke play playoffs; "the players play as a group to ensure that all situations are faced "at the same time" by the players involved." That kind of formatting or grouping has nothing to do with attempting to create "fairness" in stroke play or stroke play playoffs.

Any association or tournament committee running a stroke play playoff can format and group their playoff any way they choose to and there's absolutely nothing in the rules of golf or the manual on conducting competitions to indicate otherwise!

You may feel that it's counter to "fairness" to do it otherwise but that's just not the case in the stroke play format, including stroke play playoffs.

Any association or tournament committee can run stroke play playoffs in any groupings they see fit. That's the way it's always been, the way it is and probably the way it will always be.

[Craig Disher]

Any association or tournament committee running a stroke play playoff can format and group their playoff any way they choose to and there's absolutely nothing in the rules of golf or the manual on conducting competitions to indicate otherwise!

TEPaul,
If that's so, why have two-ball matches for the last 2 days? Why not play four-ball? I assume it's to speed up play which makes complete sense, but for the playoff certainly that shouldn't have been an issue. There was plenty of daylight left. I thought there was an advantage to playing in the second group. Els and Elkington knew what score they had to post - and consequently how much risk they should take on each hole. Even if you take the opposite view that first in is an advantage, then there is still an element of unfairness in having 2x2-balls.

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