[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

You have to ignore averages because the winners and top dozen or two are playing well beyond average each week.

Just because they MAY not be able to reach the par 5's doesn't mean that they won't position themselves perfectly for a lob wedge, and as we all know, the winners are putting great that week.

I think Pine Valley is a spectacular course, but without making it gimmickie with greens at 14, I think that 150 PGA TOUR players will produce a low winning score.  There are just too many great players in the field.

And remember, great courses yield great scores to PGA TOUR players playing great.

[TEPaul]

If the Valley ever had the top tour pros they should definitely use all their great pins positions throughout. Nothing tricky, mind you, just their really great pin positions. None of this 6-6-6 stuff with the pins if the tour pros came to the Valley--just show those tour pros what 18 great pins on 18 great holes are all about. That would definitely prevent low scoring to a degree!

And the supplemetal factor would be if even the tour pros go pin hunting with the pins set to the great positions the recoverability for missing greens at Pine Valley has to be some of the hardest and most penal anywhere.

I was talking to my pro today (the defending Philly Open Champion going into the event at PV) and he had three doubles in the afternoon--even hitting the greens and not keeping the ball on them!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Over four days of competition coupled with two or three practice days I'm sure Pine Valley wouldn't have the Sunday pins every day.

I think it would be very interesting and revealing to see how the pros would attack the golf course.

I would be curious about their club selection off the tee on Holes #'s 1,2,4,6,7,8,9,11,12,13,15,16,17, and #18.

It would be interesting to see how they would play certain shots to the green, depending on where the pin was, like
holes # 1,2,4,5,13, 15, and # 16.

Years ago I used to lay back on # 8, then someone told me that Jay Sigel and other good players tried to hit it down the hill, just on the upslope, rather than on the sidehill/downhill lie, to give them the best shot into the green.  I then began to play it that way, and the results were better.

[JSlonis]

Pat,

Due to technology I think the tee shot choices have become somewhat limited, and certainly would be for the worlds best. Almost all tee shots would be a 3 wood or 2-3 iron. I hit driver only on 9,16, and 18 both rounds. For the longest hitters #16 is the only hole where you don't have to worry about hitting it too far. I know some of my friends who played did not use a Driver all day. Length off the tee would be a very minor factor, also the majority of fairways are of generous width.

I would think the the majority of top players, who can all bomb it, could easily leave the driver in the trunk and add a 1 iron or an extra wedge.

Since the majority of the field would be driving it the same length, the low scoring would be 99% predicated on approach shots, putting, and chipping/sand play.

Like many championship venues the resistance to scoring directly relates to the course setup. Hard, fast greens and tough pins can make most any course difficult, but the margin for error at Pine Valley is smaller and more severe than most, particularly around the greens.

[George Pazin]

Hate to keep bringing facts to the table, but look at Muirfield's scoring in the first two rounds, under benign conditions. 6 under led the tournament, on a par 71 course with at least 2 reachable par 5s. You want to tell me that Muirfield resists scoring that much better than PV?

Patrick, you're right about comparing the winning score to hole averages, but I find it curious that Archie, who has seen more rounds by a greater variety of players than probably anyone on this site, keeps agreeing with little 'ol me, who hasn't even seen the course in person, let alone played it.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

I believe that you will find the fairways at PV substantially wider than Muirfield's.  I also think that you will find the rough at Muirfield substantially deeper and thicker than PV's.

Two factors which can have an influence on scoring.

[Andy Hodson]

George

I'm in your camp on this one.

Though I have never played PV (or better...I have not played it yet.), I have played the TPC at the Woodlands (host site of the Shell) many times and I would have to think that Pine Valley is much tougher than the TPC, albeit shorter.

The winning score at the Shell is rarely better than -13.

[archie]

Hey guys, I would have never even thought about this post if I wasn't so impressed by the Valleys'  resistance to scoring at the GAP Open.

So, after giving it some thought I figured the really good tour players would score between 5 and 10n under for four rounds at stroke play. I caddied for many touring pros and great amateurs when I was there, and the lowest I saw was 66 by David Graham right before he won the US at Merion. He and Crenshaw( a great guy) played the whole week before the Open at PV with a group from Texas. No pressure, no hard pins, no crazy green speeds, no super low scores. Many times some good players had it going only to three putt late or hit one off line and make a double. The lowest unofficial round i have heard is 63, by Bob Tway and the legendary trick shot artist Joe Kirkwood back in the dark ages.

The more I think of it , four rounds in the crucible gets harder, not easier, as no matter what club you are hitting, you must hit it in play. Many times the best round of a newcomer to the Valley is his first, before he knows where he cannot hit it. The greens, which i contend are the best I have ever seen, can be as hard as the committee wants them to be, believe me on this one!

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