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Matt_Ward

Jack Nicklaus made a comment inthe current issue of Digest (the one with stud Tiger ont he cover) in which he stated there are more good players today. There were more great players from yesteryear.

The issue is not about Tiger but how Jack is categorizing differences with the field of the "others" between his time on Tour and what he sees happening today.

I tend to agree with the Bear on his main point -- but curious to see how others react.




JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 09:51:40 AM »
I think winning begets winning.

I think Jack let more other guys win.

I think that contributed to there being more "great" players then.

jeffwarne

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 09:54:08 AM »
Jack finished second 19 times.
Tiger wouldn't let that happen
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Burzynski

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 10:12:11 AM »
These types of discussions are often all relative.  Difficult to compare eras, due to equipment differences, frequency of play differences (guys used to play more frequently on tour, even weekly, and now Tiger picks and chooses).  Baseball has the same arguments, especially when you talk home runs, hits and such.

I am not saying at all that Tiger is a lesser golfer, just that it is difficult to compare eras.    Does having more or less 'good golfers' diminish an accomplishment like Byron Nelson's winning streak in 1945?  All relative.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 10:26:55 AM »
JES, Jeff -

good insights. I'm reluctant to agree with them, but for only this reason: I think if we could measure the talent pools 'objectively', JN would probably be wrong, i.e. there are not only many more good players today but more great players too (if objectively analysed 'technique' were the measuring stick).  But since we can't really measure the talent pools 'objectively', we're left to ask whether there were more players back in JN's time that through talent and hunger and ambition and guts were able to rise above their (good) contemporaries often enough and in enough major championships to be considered great. And I'm thinking the answer is yes. Johnny Miller when he was on, Lee Trevino at his best, Tom Watson in the British, Arnold Palmer earlier in JN's career, Billy Casper with his majors and over 50 tour wins,  Gary Player flat out -- these were great professionals, and the numbers prove that. Not even Tiger is "on" all the time, and yes, JN seems to have been "off" more often; but those great players of the past seemed to have been able to take advantage of JN's off days much better than any of Tiger's contemporaries have taken advantage of his. (I think Tiger himself is surprised that he's been able to dominate so completely, especially in the majors - not VERY surprised mind you, but at least a little bit...)

Peter   

JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 10:37:04 AM »
I was actually just trying to pick a fight...

I agree that there is no way to objectively say...that's why I think it odd that Jack would make the comment he apparently made...

wsmorrison

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 10:40:05 AM »
I don't think it is odd that Jack made that statement, it is ego.  He's protecting his place in the game.  I think he should stay above any such activities.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 10:41:32 AM »
I agree with Jack. One small comparison bears out my point. Compare Gary Player and Ernie Els. Gary was great, because of the desire, the work ethic, the never say never in his personality. Ernie may have a greater skill set, but he falls short on the measure of greatness that counts.

When Chris DiMarco gets praised for his toughess when he finishes second to Tiger, we know something is amiss with the toughness (and greatness) of the current crop of pros.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 10:44:24 AM »
I was actually just trying to pick a fight...

I agree that there is no way to objectively say...that's why I think it odd that Jack would make the comment he apparently made...

Sully is right.  This is purely a subjective wandering.  That said, imo its a no brianer that I take the likes of Player, Watson, Palmer & Trevino over Phil, Ernie, VJ and The Goose (?). The interesting part of this is where do guys like Ballesteros & Faldo fit - both of which I would take over any two of the Phil group? 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 10:46:45 AM by Sean Arble »
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JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 10:45:21 AM »
One small comparison

...is about right...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2008, 10:46:21 AM »
I was actually just trying to pick a fight...

You pick your fights well, JES...and then usually take one last jab on the way out the door....

Peter

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2008, 10:52:27 AM »
Not even close: waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay (that's for you, Matt :)) more good, great, middling, average, and just about every other category of golfers today.

There's only one Tiger, however, not matter how many times the media tries to tell us Jason Day or some other hot young gun is poised to knock him off.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2008, 10:52:42 AM »
One small comparison

...is about right...

I only needed to make one comparison, because the others so obviously follow from the first. Isn't that right Sean.
 :D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2008, 11:26:42 AM »
Peter,

That is low...I think I concede defeat here better than anyone...or at least I would if it ever happened... ;D

PThomas

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 11:28:57 AM »
I agree with Jack
197 played, only 3 to go!!

Will MacEwen

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 11:43:14 AM »
If Player, Trevino et al had been forced to play against Tiger they may not be so great.  I also think it was easier to win majors in that era as the fields were nowhere near as deep. 

You should have seen the Atlantic Ocean back then - it was really something.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 11:48:03 AM »
If Player, Trevino et al had been forced to play against Tiger they may not be so great.  I also think it was easier to win majors in that era as the fields were nowhere near as deep. 

You should have seen the Atlantic Ocean back then - it was really something.

I must remind you that they were not forced to play against Tiger then, but they were forced to play against Jack and made him take second place more times than he won in the majors. Who has the toughness to make Tiger take second place. And, what about the study that just came out and was reported in the latest Golf Digest that all players play a stroke worse than normal when Tiger is in the field, even after ajusting for difficulty of the courses, event, etc.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 11:48:52 AM »

You should have seen the Atlantic Ocean back then - it was really something.

Will,

We're talking about Nicklaus, not Bobby Jones...

Will MacEwen

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 12:11:06 PM »
If Player, Trevino et al had been forced to play against Tiger they may not be so great.  I also think it was easier to win majors in that era as the fields were nowhere near as deep. 

You should have seen the Atlantic Ocean back then - it was really something.

I must remind you that they were not forced to play against Tiger then, but they were forced to play against Jack and made him take second place more times than he won in the majors. Who has the toughness to make Tiger take second place. And, what about the study that just came out and was reported in the latest Golf Digest that all players play a stroke worse than normal when Tiger is in the field, even after ajusting for difficulty of the courses, event, etc.


You mustn't remind me of anything.  I think Tiger is far more dominant than Jack was.  It didn't take near as much to put Jack in second as far as I am concerned.  I guess it is a chicken and egg argument.

Tim Pitner

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 12:11:52 PM »
This is purely a subjective wandering.  That said, imo its a no brianer that I take the likes of Player, Watson, Palmer & Trevino over Phil, Ernie, VJ and The Goose (?). The interesting part of this is where do guys like Ballesteros & Faldo fit - both of which I would take over any two of the Phil group? 

One of the difficulties in this comparison is that it's such a different game now.  It's much different even when compared to the 1980s when Seve and Faldo were at the top of their games.  I recall Faldo saying that the emphasis on distance pushed him aside because he had constructed his game around accuracy and working and placing the ball where he wanted it and he wasn't able to adapt.  

I tend to think that if Tiger weren't so dominant and the likes of Els, Mickelson, Singh and Goosen had 1-2 more majors, each, under their belts (not at all unlikely, IMO), then the current stars would receive more credit.  Could Palmer, Player and Trevino, physically, thrive in the modern game?  I'm not so sure.  Palmer had some meltdowns that dwarf anything Els or Mickelson have done so I don't completely buy the argument that the top players back then were more clutch.  

tlavin

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 12:14:25 PM »
Comparing players from different eras always invites an increased degree of speculative thought, but I tend to agree with Nicklaus here.  Year in, year out, Nicklaus had more competition from a number of players.  More players in that era won tournaments than seem to win nowadays.

One of the most telling statistics in modern golf is that there are only five golfers under the age of thirty currently on the tour (excepting Tiger who won plenty in his 20's) who have won two or more tournaments during their 20's.  Sergio and Adam Scott have each won three and Baddeley, Trahan, O'Hair, Holmes and Howell have won two each. 

The PGA Tour is littered with players who get their card every year and never get a sniff of a win, but they still get endorsements and make enough money to keep at it.  (The one exception to the endorsements seems to  be Briny Baird, who was sporting a PJ Chang's hat and a shirt devoid of any logos during the New Orleans stop.) 

Returning to topic, there were more great players in Jack's era, including Trevino, Palmer, Weiskopf, Watson, Floyd, just to name a quick few.  And they were all great during a long time when Nicklaus was predominant.  Nowadays, we have much less competition.  We either have tournaments in which Tiger competes (he kicks butt and very few challenge him) or tournaments without Tiger (where we have a bevy of one or two-hit wonders who fade into the background only to be replaced by another blip on the golf radar screen). 

Jack finished twice dozens of times.  When he did, he usually lost to a great player, not a journeyman like Duffy Waldorf or a kid like Johnson Wagner.  It may be nostalgic, but I think Jack is right on this one.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 12:18:27 PM »
I think Jack is right. Back pre 80 probably only 20% of the field were capable of winning a tournament, now they all can. If you look at today's greats only Tiger is racking up major's... his nearest rivals PM, VS, EE, RG have not got enough (yet) to go down as 'greats' like Nicklaus, Palmer and Player. What denotes a great? maybe all 4 majors, or collectively 6?
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Will MacEwen

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 12:21:18 PM »
I think Jack is right. Back pre 80 probably only 20% of the field were capable of winning a tournament, now they all can. If you look at today's greats only Tiger is racking up major's... his nearest rivals PM, VS, EE, RG have not got enough (yet) to go down as 'greats' like Nicklaus, Palmer and Player. What denotes a great? maybe all 4 majors, or collectively 6?

That is precisely why the other greats from Jack's era were so successful - it was easier to win. 

If it is all four majors, it is a short list with no Snead, Palmer, Watson, etc.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 12:23:14 PM »

You mustn't remind me of anything.  I think Tiger is far more dominant than Jack was.  It didn't take near as much to put Jack in second as far as I am concerned.  I guess it is a chicken and egg argument.

Or, it is easier to be more dominant when the rest of the field is lying down for you. Do you have any stats that show the field shot higher scores when Jack was in the field? Where are the equivalent to Jack/T Watson or Jack/Trevino duels in the Tiger era? Instead we have Tiger/B May, etc. where Tiger is dueling a one shot wonder.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Pitner

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 12:24:22 PM »
One other problem here--when ticking off the list of "greats" against whom Nicklaus competed, we're looking at the span of his entire career, including Palmer and Player with the likes of Miller, Weiskopf (was he great? 1 major?) and Floyd.  We don't know who Tiger's competition will be in the next 10-20 years.  Maybe people like Geoff Ogilvy, Adam Scott or even Sergio Garcia will rise to greatness.  Maybe someone even younger will emerge (e.g., Rory McElroy).  

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