[Jonathan Cummings]

The only thing that could complete this thread is for Tommy to weigh in!

[wsmorrison]

David,

Thanks for your reply in both tone and content.   

As for the tees on the 10th hole, there were 5 tees in 1924 (I have a 1925 photo that shows the current back tee), 5 tees in 1930 and two tees were combined prior to 1934 resulting in 4 tees.  Today, you can see the remnants of the short tee that is no longer used.  It probably didn't work very well for weaker players since the hill up to the fairway is so close.  By the way, the landing area in the fairway just past the left bunker is exactly the same elevation as the current back tee.

The 18th tee was very small in 1924 and 1930.  In fact, for a time it may have been maintained as the smallest tee I've ever seen by Flynn.  You can see the remnants of the tee on the ground today.  I think it was correctly measured.  The back tee prior to the 505 yard tee put in for the 2005 Amateur, was lengthened to its current yardage of 463 from the middle of the tee for the 1934 Open.  What do you think the elevation change is between the 1930 back tee and the edge of the quarry?  What about the change from the tee to the landing area?

The information needed to conclude yardages is in the Flynn book.  Though not yet published, a number of people have copies of the manuscript.  Our sources of information were found in private collections, including Merion GC (its research library and archives is open to the public under certain limitations) but much of it came from libraries, historical societies and other easily accessed public sources. 

Since you are not comfortable with my assurances or Tom Paul's confirmation, nor are you patient enough for the Flynn book to be published, I suggest you come to Philadelphia and see for yourself.

[JESII]

Jim,

It looks like it is about a 210 yard carry from the back portion of the current tee next to the bunkers, to the beginning of the fairway.   To put it in perspective, that is longer than the carry to green at Cypress Point Club, only at Merion there would have been no bail-out option.

Understood...my point though was that a carry of 190 - 200 to get out of the quarry (I'd guess it's 15 or 20 yards from the crest of the quarry to the fairway) would really grab the attention of the players...and therefore might get some ink...150 carry might not.

Just a thought of a different place to look for corroboration on the tee placement.

I think you are following your desired end result to back into evidence that stands. Your thread tital and your take on the 1930 overhead of 18 are illustrations of that...but...it's worth finding an answer.

[DMoriarty]

Jim, I think we agree that around 200 would have been quite a forced carry in those days.   I do recall an article mentioning that on the 18th one had to drive back out of the quarry, but dont recall the date, nor think such language proves much one way or another. 

Surely a photograph of the famous hole ought to show a tee if there was one. 

[DMoriarty]

Wayne,

Thanks for your post.   My desire to see the source information has nothing to do with a distrust of anyone.  Rather it is the only proper research methodology.     Critical peer review is the crucial component to quality academic product, and for that reason alone we ought not simply take each others word for much of anything. 

If you want dont want to back up your description here, that is your prerogative.   But, unfortunately, it is the factual support that proves or disproves my hypothesis.

I have been hoping to get to Philadelphia with time for some research for some time, but have more immediate responsibilities than this bizarre hobby of mine.   

[Bryan Izatt]

More grist for the 18th hole mill.  From the American Golfer August 1934 courtesy of the LA84 Foundation, the 18th at Merion played at 425 yards  for the 1930 Amateur.  However, it played at 455 yards in the 1924 Amateur and the 1934 Open.  The 1930 yardage is reported by two members of the club at that time. 

So, it appears from this source that in 1930 the hole was played up by 30 yards, but that there must have been back tees at 455 yards.  The 425 yards is pretty close to the in-air measurement I made of the hole based on the Jones' shots aerials.  I'd guess it is right and my 415 yard measure was wrong by 10 yards based on the vagaries of overlaying the old photo on the current Google aerial.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

That's a really interesting find...

As an aside, inspired by this thread, I did a Google Earth measurement of Merion today, from the new tees.

I don't have it in front of me, but the front nine was over 3600 yards, with the back nine being 3300-some.    All told, the course measured out at something like 6950 yards.

[JESII]

I think Google Earth can be pretty good, I think Bryan thought of it a year or so ago, but going to a football stadium and measuring end zone to endzone gets 100 yards every time.

[wsmorrison]

Local newspaper accounts before and during the 1930 Amateur listed the yardage for the 18th hole as 455.

[Bryan Izatt]

Wayne,

According to the article these numbers were provided by Merion members of the time:  "After the 1924 and the 1930 National Amateur Championships, played at Merion, S. V. W. and W. E. Patterson, members of the club, computed stroke averages and compiled other data on the qualification play."  I wonder if the newsmen or these two members were more accurate or correct?

[wsmorrison]

Bryan,

It is hard to say.  There were several accounts in two newspapers (Inquirer and Bulletin) that listed the longer yardage.  The hole drawings between 1924 and 1930 are unchanged.  The same tees existed for both tournaments.  It is puzzling to think the 1930 Amateur was played shorter than the 1924 Amateur.  If it was not a mistake or typo in the August 1934 American Golfer, maybe there was a stiff breeze into the players one of those days.  I believe the weather conditions were reported to be ideal.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a drawing of the 18th for the 1930 National Amateur as presented in the September 19, 1930 edition of the Philadelphia Public Ledger:

[JESII]

Good find Joe...that's the kind of stuff I was looking for.

If they played at 415 or 425 during the 1930 Amateur, it was not because they did not have a 455 tee it appears.

Does anyone know if the back tee was originally built to the left (further from #17 green) than it is today?

That image in Joe's post shows an offset from the back tee to the front tee, and I doubt the front tee would have been further right because of the 17th hole being there...

[TEPaul]

You know, it's a shame that some of the old architectural material from the beginning of Merion East is apparently gone now.

For instance, there is no question that Hugh Wilson had a topographic map of that site BEFORE any construction was done on the East. I know he did because he talked about it in his very first letter to Piper at the US Dept of Agriculture on Feb 1, 1911 (the course began to go into construction in the spring of 1911).

I would just love to see that original topo contour map of Merion East because it would show exactly how that land was before the course and then we could analyze EXACTLY what was made and where and what wasn't.

One reason I say that is I doubt the original preconstruction natural grade where the tees on #18 are now is the same grade it is now.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Joe B.

Joe S.   

I am not sure the tee to which you are referring, but I dont think the tee I see is the 455 yard tee.  I see three tees, not just a front and back tee:   

1.  The front tee offset which is offset.
2.  The largest tee, in front of what looks to be a ditch in the drawing.  This one seems to be the 415 yard tee, the one which appears in the 1930 Jones Aerial.
3.   I think a very small tee behind the same ditch. 

It is difficult to tell in a drawing but the small tee looks too close to the ditch to be the 455 yard tee.    I think TEPaul claimed that there was a small tee to the front right of the front bunker on the 17th, so maybe this is it.   If so then it is about 435 yards.   

Is there currently a small tee to the front and right of the bunker?   

Thanks again Joe B.

[TEPaul]

One of the interesting things in and around the 17th green and extending over to past the 18th tee is the topographical contour change. It's pretty hard to tell with all of that what was made and what wasn't and at what time in that site's history. That's why all that could be so easily determined if we could find that old preconstruction topo contour map Wilson mentioned to Piper on Feb. 1, 1911.

It is very possible that there could've been a lot of earthmoving in there way before Merion East. It would not surprise me at all if what looks like a big berm that you have to walk up and over when you come through the quarry off #17 tee and then walk off of and down into a small valley when your near #17 green was actually a manufactured berm/roadway that was constructed for quarrying purposes---eg to probably get quarried stone over to the railroad nearby.

I also have a feeling that some of those tees back in the old days were not at the same grade some of them are now. Either that or they did some significant "cutting" between them in relatively recent times.

[JESII]

David,

Remember, this is just a drawing so don't put too much weight in comparing it to the photo.

I think you are correct thought that there are three tees, mostly because the dotted (line of play) line just grazes the biggest tee and goes right to the center of the small tee you spotted...the back tee...455 or not.

[TEPaul]

Could someone remind me again exactly why we are going through this excercise of measuring and remeasuring all the tees on hole like #10 and #18?

Hell, if anyone wants to know the exact distance from any point out there I could just go grap the laser and shoot any distance from anywhere to anywhere. That is definitely going to be a whole lot more reliable and accurate than foolin' and fussin' with all these old aerials and drawing with some measuring device on Googlearth! 

Does all this have to do with the fact that David Moriarty is trying to establish that there have been all kinds of inaccuracies to do with the length of the golf course at particular times and that should be used as some justification to re-examine if all the other facts of the architectural history of Merion are accurate too?

Just wondering?

If that's what this is about that's pretty cool really. We should just extrapolate that and shitcan every single bit of archtiectural history of all courses in America and let David research ship manifests and such to see if every course in America may need one of his "white papers" to potentially reinterpret all their architectural histories.

I'm pumped! 

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's another drawing from an article, in American Golfer from June 1934, about the 1934 Open.  The location of the three tees is consistent with Joe's article.  There was a description of the hole in the article:

The tee for the eighteenth is on a
slightly higher level than the seventeenth
green, but the shot calls for the
carry of a crest, just beyond a part of
the old quarry, one hundred and eighty
to ninety yards out. Beyond this crest,
the ground slopes gently down to within
eighty to one hundred yards of the
green, and from that point rises gradually
up again, so that the green is on
a level approximately the same as the
landing place for a real good drive.

Locating the tee relative to the front right bunker on 17, I'd get a max of 440 yards for the hole.  Interestingly it is about 350 yards to the fairway bunker as per Joe's article.  However it is not more than 200 yards to the fairway as per Joe's article.  It is about 180 yards, which is more consistent with the American Golfer article.  And, Tom, the article says that the tee is slightly higher than 17 green for whatever help that is with the topography.

[TEPaul]

"Locating the tee relative to the front right bunker on 17, I'd get a max of 440 yards for the hole."


Bryan:

My sense and intuiton from playing that hole a lot over the years is that spot could not be more than that. It seems like if you walked back from that spot to where I used to play from you'd be around 20 yards farther back and right around the 458 yards I think I remember playing from. In those days that was a really long par 4 yardage. Par 4s then could go up to 475 but to go over that there had to be something compensating about the topography (like ANGC's #10 at 485).

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