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Robin_Hiseman

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The last English links course
« on: October 17, 2019, 10:16:15 AM »
It's funny what can occupy your mind when you wake up in the middle of the night, but at 3:15 this morning it occurred to me that whilst Scotland and Ireland have enjoyed continued links development in recent years, England's ground to a halt an indeterminate time ago and I lay awake wondering what was the LAST new links course to be developed in England?


Could it really be the Channel nine at Burnham & Berrow or Hawtree's Hillside? Both were 40 years or more ago.


Do any of you know?


Don't count clifftop courses, or tweaks. It has to be new, true links.
'22: Al Mouj; Cleeve, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook, Astbury, Silloth, Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield, Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn Marquess, JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex West, Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs South, Crystal Downs, The Loop, Shoreacres, Chicago

Sean_A

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2019, 10:30:53 AM »
Wasn't Hillside a major tweak?

How old is Rye's Joob 9?

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Thomas Dai

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2019, 12:48:54 PM »
How about the Headland-9 at Trevose? From the 1990ís I believe.
Maybe the Holywell course at St Enodoc which was extended from 9-18 in the 1980ís.

Atb

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2019, 12:59:02 PM »
There must be a few younger brother nine hole additions.


But whatís the last brand new 18 holer on a new site?

Thomas Dai

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2019, 02:15:34 PM »
Would the re-opening of Saunton West in the mid-1970ís count given that itís original forebearer hadnít been played since WWII?
Atb

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2019, 03:31:13 PM »
Formby reroute could claim a few holes but not sure exactly when.

David_Tepper

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2019, 04:36:42 PM »
This thread begs the question, if a Mike Keiser-like figure was interested in building/developing a links course in England, where would he start looking for a suitable piece of linksland?

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2019, 03:14:36 AM »
This thread begs the question, if a Mike Keiser-like figure was interested in building/developing a links course in England, where would he start looking for a suitable piece of linksland?



Maybe around Southport but there is very little links land if any in England that would be available. There was a links course that shut down recently but the name escapes me. Buying something like that and remodelling would probably be the best bet.

Thomas Dai

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2019, 03:55:19 AM »
This thread begs the question, if a Mike Keiser-like figure was interested in building/developing a links course in England, where would he start looking for a suitable piece of linksland?
Maybe around Southport but there is very little links land if any in England that would be available. There was a links course that shut down recently but the name escapes me. Buying something like that and remodelling would probably be the best bet.


If I were such a developer I might be inclined to investigate - especially if remoteness were seen as an advantage -


Seaside holiday camps/caravan sites that are in decline (even more so if they had/have a short course/pitch-n-putt on site)
Ex-WWII airfields/firing ranges etc. There are a lot of them all around the coastline many in flattened duneland.
Former munitions factories. These were often built in sand dunes.
There are also some small private clubs in remote area that could be ripe to be 'taken over' and developed (one in Lincolnshire just closed and there's a 9-hole links north of Barrow that allegedly may be going the same way soon).


atb


PS - my commission for anyone adopting such suggestions will be very modest! :)


Jeff Schley

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2019, 04:04:34 AM »
This thread begs the question, if a Mike Keiser-like figure was interested in building/developing a links course in England, where would he start looking for a suitable piece of linksland?



Maybe around Southport but there is very little links land if any in England that would be available.
Agreed. Availability is the issue as the UK, as is in the US, coastal land is in many cases protected either via public ownership that can't be privatized or environmentally.  I don't think either of those two concepts is bad btw, although the golfer in me laments those realities.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2019, 05:21:07 AM »
Would the re-opening of Saunton West in the mid-1970ís count given that itís original forebearer hadnít been played since WWII?
Atb


It's exactly a year ago since we played there! Yes, that's a possible, but how much was an existing golf site?


That Trevose nine-holer is just fields, albeit near the sea.


You have to go out to the Cumbrian coast north of Barrow to find copious virgin duneland of the sort developed elsewhere, but good luck in getting a permit or making a go of anything all the way out there.
'22: Al Mouj; Cleeve, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook, Astbury, Silloth, Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield, Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn Marquess, JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex West, Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs South, Crystal Downs, The Loop, Shoreacres, Chicago

Thomas Dai

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2019, 09:05:27 AM »
You have to go out to the Cumbrian coast north of Barrow to find copious virgin duneland of the sort developed elsewhere, but good luck in getting a permit or making a go of anything all the way out there.
Donít disagree with you Robin. Permits and permissions must be an issue everywhere though (unless you want to build a supermarket!) and the area isnít exactly highly populated nor easy to get to/from.
Maybe thatís why Silecroft GC, a links course a few miles north of Barrow in South Cumbria, is presently for sale for £350k.
Atb

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2019, 04:56:45 PM »
You have to go out to the Cumbrian coast north of Barrow to find copious virgin duneland of the sort developed elsewhere, but good luck in getting a permit or making a go of anything all the way out there.
Donít disagree with you Robin. Permits and permissions must be an issue everywhere though (unless you want to build a supermarket!) and the area isnít exactly highly populated nor easy to get to/from.
Maybe thatís why Silecroft GC, a links course a few miles north of Barrow in South Cumbria, is presently for sale for £350k.
Atb
I already looked at it, I got 18 holes on it as well but it is not straightforward. You are not buying the golf club. Some great land on a spit, I reckon 500 acres just off the road into Barrow, must be the same...there is a way round the problem but not for discussion here.
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2019, 09:32:44 AM »
There is a fabulous piece of virgin linksland between Formby and Southport that I am surprised was not turned over to golf many years ago.

Presumably it would be politically impossible to do so now.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Formby,+Liverpool/@53.5953619,-3.066209,2337m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x487b3a556c743801:0xd2cb906cc05ffa73!8m2!3d53.558271!4d-3.068743
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 09:34:36 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2019, 10:16:59 AM »
Devon and Cornwall have many sites that could work, both true links then cliff-top.
When was the last links course in Wales built?
Tom Williamsen
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Jeff Schley

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2019, 11:04:13 AM »
There is a fabulous piece of virgin linksland between Formby and Southport that I am surprised was not turned over to golf many years ago.

Presumably it would be politically impossible to do so now.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Formby,+Liverpool/@53.5953619,-3.066209,2337m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x487b3a556c743801:0xd2cb906cc05ffa73!8m2!3d53.558271!4d-3.068743
You don't mean Pleasureland I assume.  ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2019, 11:18:52 AM »
There is a fabulous piece of virgin linksland between Formby and Southport that I am surprised was not turned over to golf many years ago.

Presumably it would be politically impossible to do so now.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Formby,+Liverpool/@53.5953619,-3.066209,2337m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x487b3a556c743801:0xd2cb906cc05ffa73!8m2!3d53.558271!4d-3.068743



Most of that land as well as much of the three courses are SSSI's so what would be the chance of getting permission? Oh wait, the last two did get permission.


Seriously, the land is good though the dunes are mostly very big so it would create some difficulties. Having said that, I am surprised that part of the UK is not a bigger golf resort destination.

Thomas Dai

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2019, 11:53:26 AM »
Devon and Cornwall have many sites that could work, both true links then cliff-top.
When was the last links course in Wales built?
Machynys opened in about 2005. Itís imediately adjacent to the sea/estuary but whether or not you classify it as a links is a different matter.
Atb

Ben Stephens

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2019, 12:20:21 PM »
Robin,


Sandilands north of Skegness where Jim Payne (former tour player and now pro at S&A) closed down earlier this year - it is on a sandy base and a bit of shaping a la Kingsbarns will deffo help to elevate it to a 'proper' links course.


Cheers
Ben

Pete_Pittock

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2019, 01:20:37 PM »
This thread begs the question, if a Mike Keiser-like figure was interested in building/developing a links course in England, where would he start looking for a suitable piece of linksland?



Maybe around Southport but there is very little links land if any in England that would be available. There was a links course that shut down recently but the name escapes me. Buying something like that and remodelling would probably be the best bet.
   It was on the east coast north of The Wash. Ah, it was Sandilands.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 01:27:27 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2019, 01:24:45 PM »

#2DAI4


 :D :D       :D :D :D :D [size=78%]  [/size]

PS - my commission for anyone adopting such suggestions will be very modest! :)
Maybe for 2022
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2019, 02:09:53 PM »
Devon and Cornwall have many sites that could work, both true links then cliff-top.
When was the last links course in Wales built?
Machynys opened in about 2005. Itís imediately adjacent to the sea/estuary but whether or not you classify it as a links is a different matter.
Atb


Machynys is in no sense a links
Adam Lawrence

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David Davis

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2019, 03:03:31 AM »

You have to go out to the Cumbrian coast north of Barrow to find copious virgin duneland of the sort developed elsewhere, but good luck in getting a permit or making a go of anything all the way out there.




Robin,


"making a go of anything all the way out there"...yes, because these days golf courses are never built hard to get to?  ::)


Bandon
Barnbougle
Tara Iti
Ardfin
Santapazienza


....and the list goes on.


Maybe there is a correlation between "hard to get to" and the ability to sway the authorities into allowing someone with enough money to make a go of it.   ;D





Next up: open to ideas!

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www.top100golfcourses.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2019, 03:05:22 AM »
This thread begs the question, if a Mike Keiser-like figure was interested in building/developing a links course in England, where would he start looking for a suitable piece of linksland?



Maybe around Southport but there is very little links land if any in England that would be available. There was a links course that shut down recently but the name escapes me. Buying something like that and remodelling would probably be the best bet.
   It was on the east coast north of The Wash. Ah, it was Sandilands.



That was it!!! Thanks Ben (& Pete)

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The last English links course
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2019, 03:35:00 AM »

You have to go out to the Cumbrian coast north of Barrow to find copious virgin duneland of the sort developed elsewhere, but good luck in getting a permit or making a go of anything all the way out there.




Robin,


"making a go of anything all the way out there"...yes, because these days golf courses are never built hard to get to?  ::)


Bandon
Barnbougle
Tara Iti
Ardfin
Santapazienza


....and the list goes on.


Maybe there is a correlation between "hard to get to" and the ability to sway the authorities into allowing someone with enough money to make a go of it.   ;D


In fairness though David, Iíd be pretty disgusted if the ďnext linksĒ built in England followed the model of those bottom three. And it wonít be able to follow the model of the top one.


Barnbougle remains very high on my want to see list.


Slightly off-topic but canít wait to see what Tom does at St.Patricks. That too is remote but if he delivers a top-10 Ireland course (and I fully expect he will), then I think that will really turn round the fortunes of Rosapenna. But only because there are another 2 excellent courses there and because the Doak name will attract many visitors, at least in the short to medium term.


It would take something to make a standalone 18 holes in north Cumbria knock out 25,000+ rounds a year.

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