[Peter Goss]

I would be grateful for opinions on what our learned friends consider the maximum angle of a dogleg hole before it becomes a bit dinky or contrived?
My home course has one hole of 60 degree change which gives the (correct) impression that it was remodelled to fit in the construction of another amenity (in this case a bowling green) and therefore is out of flow with the original architecture of the course.
Do any holes of such or greater angle "work" and if so, how is that possible?

[Paul (Guest)]

Here is an example of how a muni course can be very stupid:

One of the holes is a 600+ yard par-5. THe hole goes out about 230 yards, 90 degree left, 200 more yards 90 degree right, 200 yards to green. Very stupid hole.

[Pete_Pittock]

It might depend on what is guarding the dogleg, trees might be different than bunkers or rough. TPC Snoqualmie (Nicklaus)has a near 90 degree dogleg around a ravine that I couldn't cut at all because of my carry length (200), going to the corner left a mid iron in, but going up to the whites I could hit to the front of the green.

[JohnV]

Peter,

I think the hole at TPC Snoqualamie is almost a 180 dogleg.  It is supposedly a 400 yard par 4, but I drove the green by going straight across.  Coming up short isn't a good thing though.

There is another hole in Roseburg Or that is about 120 degrees.  You hit a 4-iron off the tee because of a lake at the end of the fairway and then hit a 6 or 7 iron back up a hill to the green.  The green is only about 150 yards from the tee, but is elevated, has a bunch of big trees guarding it and the area in between is marked OB.  The course is Stewart Park.

[Peter Goss]

Thanks John V
Did you find  these holes to be in balance with the rest of the course? Were they a a bit gimicky? Or was driving the green sufficient thrill to want to come back again to repeat the challenge?
Pete - the Nicklaus course with 90 degrees souns severe but I suppose the ravine acts a type of diagonal hazard which at least gives options. I take the point about what is guarding the corner.
And have any of the Melboune guys have a protractor for the angles of the very good holes of 3W and 6W at Royal Melbourne?

[Chris Kane]

Peter,

Great thread.  Just got out a map of RM, and 6W is roughly 50 degrees, and 3W 55 degrees.

[Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)]

Peter,

At first, I was tempted to say that when you start getting over 45 degrees, you've got to start asking questions.

But then again I thought of holes that angle more than 90 that don't feel gimmicky, and some that angle far less than 30 that feel gimmicky.

So I guess the real "test of gimmickry" is

* What is the reason for the dogleg?  Going around a lake, a ravine, a forest, etc...  All seem in our minds to be "valid" reasons and we are more willing to accept the dogleg as natural.  Going around a housing development or a practice range cannot be view is such a positive light.
* What protects the inside of the dogleg?  The ocean, for example, would be accepted.  Internal O.B. would be gimmicky.
*What sort of distances can you hit your shots?  The shorter the distance that you can hit the ball (before running out of fairway), the more gimmicky it becomes.
*How does it fit the contours of the land?  Obviously, if it goes against the slope (i.e. balls kicking towards the outside of the corner), it will be less "natural".
* What's the angle of the dogleg?  The sharper it is, the more gimmicky the hole might seem to be (depending on the answers to the above).

So, according to this hastily devised "test", what are good doglegs and bad doglegs?

* Good:  18th at Sawgrass; 13th at Augusta National
* Bad: 9th at Katchewano - nearly exact same hole as 18th at Sawgrass, but internal O.B. rather than lake protects adjoining hole.   4th at Orford - 90+ degree dogleg left par 5.  160 yards to reach first turning point, O.B. line painted in fairway past dogleg that says "if your tee shot lands beyond this line, you're O.B."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

# 16 at Winged Foot West seems severe, perhaps if Scott has posted the aerial it can be viewed and measured.

[A_Clay_Man]

Stevenson ranch's first hole is a huge half moon par 5,  Cutting off over the inside leg is out of the question. There are multiple tees, but the one that's furthest right, makes it qualify for a minimum of ninety degrees. Since This is the first hole it is an example of a hole that seems unique, and not out of place.

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