[D_Malley]

for the past several years my club has employed seasonal immigrant labor.  we have gone through all the required paperwork to ensure that this was done according to the set goverment requirements.  The staff has always returned to their country of origin when the seasonal employment ended.

i have been told that this year it will be much tougher to accuire this type of labor.  has there been some significant change in the laws?  can anyone provide more info on the new laws if this is the case?  These employees have been extremely helpful and would be very difficult to replace.

[Norbert P]

 I haven't heard anything specific but there does seem to be regional flareups where folks get Ameri-righteous and lobby Sheriff Lobos for "action".  From my experience, they are fine people, working hard for highly appreciated moolah.

[Bill_McBride]

It's ironic that the enforcement in Arizona has been so stringent that the state is working on a new law that will set up a guest worker program to bring in Mexican workers.

I promise I am not making this up.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I read a 2004 report from the landscaping industry that gave some average hourly wage figures for workers:

-entry-level mower operator- $8.00
-experienced mower op. - $10.30
-entry lawn care tech- $9.40
-exp. lawn care tech - $12.60
-entry level constr.- $8.60
-exp. constr.          -$12.60

You would find it incredibly hard to subsist on such a wage anywhere in the Northeast. It would offer you little chance, if any, of taking part in the 'American Dream'.

     

[Nick Cauley]

Racetrack, 

The Government has not passed our returning worker bill yet.  This means every year there are 198,000 H2b visa workers in the U.S.  Of that 198,000, 132,000 are considered returning workers.  This year that have not passed the returning, so there are only 66,000 new H2B visas.  So I am in the same boat as you and I did not receive my 15 guys that have been coming to this course for the past 3 years.  It is a shame..

[Lou_Duran]

Bill McBride,

The issue for most is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration.  If you believe that a country has a right and a duty to control its borders, then what AZ is doing makes perfect sense.  If you believe that laws and their enforcement are mere suggestions, then why bother about having them.  We're either governed by laws or by men.  Lower wages may be good for a buyer of labor and the consumer, but certainly not for the supplier.  We need to have a rational discussion of the issue in this country, modify our laws according to the conclusions, and then enforce them.

While I have great admiration for people who risk everything and work extraordinarily hard to provide for their families, I have a difficult time getting over the fact that the first act many of them commit on U.S. soil is illegal.  It behooves us to come up with something better and more equitable.

Jim Kennedy,

Most of these jobs are meant to be temporary nor career.  A good mechanic at a busy course can make $50,000 plus benefits.  As to the NE, with the cost of living and high taxes, who can afford to live the "American Dream" up there anyways?  I read something to the effect that NY has lost some 1,000,000 in population over the last 10+/- years, which has been partially offset by poorer immigrants, primarily moving into NYC.   

[Dan Herrmann]

This is a real issue up here in metro-Philly too.  Nick hit the nail on the head, the H2B visa program is "stuck", and clubs can't get their legal staff back from the south.

I know of a GM that was told that there would be jail time for anybody hiring illegals, so that's certainly not going to happen.   I know that clubs haven't had a lot of luck attracting local workers, but that could change if the US economy sours further.

It's going to be a tough year.

Here's a good article:  http://www.mvtimes.com/news/2008/01/10/island-labor-shortage.php

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

The issue for most is not immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration.  If you believe that a country has a right and a duty to control its borders, then what AZ is doing makes perfect sense.  If you believe that laws and their enforcement are mere suggestions, then why bother about having them.  We're either governed by laws or by men.  Lower wages may be good for a buyer of labor and the consumer, but certainly not for the supplier.  We need to have a rational discussion of the issue in this country, modify our laws according to the conclusions, and then enforce them.

While I have great admiration for people who risk everything and work extraordinarily hard to provide for their families, I have a difficult time getting over the fact that the first act many of them commit on U.S. soil is illegal.  It behooves us to come up with something better and more equitable.

Jim Kennedy,

Most of these jobs are meant to be temporary nor career.  A good mechanic at a busy course can make $50,000 plus benefits.  As to the NE, with the cost of living and high taxes, who can afford to live the "American Dream" up there anyways?  I read something to the effect that NY has lost some 1,000,000 in population over the last 10+/- years, which has been partially offset by poorer immigrants, primarily moving into NYC.   

Lou, shame on you and your inflammatory posts.  You need to start reading other peoples' writing more carefully before you start up the blowtorch.

[D_Malley]

Thanks nick and Dan that is exactly the info i was looking for. 

it is a real shame that these workers who have worked at my club for several years will not be able to return this year.  we have brought back several of the same guys year after year.  most of them have families that they leave for extended periods.  i am sure that these families  were counting on this income.

[Jason Topp]

Lou, shame on you and your inflammatory posts.  You need to start reading other peoples' writing more carefully before you start up the blowtorch.
[/quote]

Bill:

I do not have strong views on this issue one way or another but I hope your post was tongue in cheek. 

Lou's post was well thought out, dealt with the issue thoughtfully and did not resort to personal attacks of any kind.  I often disagree with Lou but I admire the way he expresses his positions.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see where Lou went off track on this one. Americans want thier cake, and they want to eat it too!!!

We complain about illegals coming over the border and getting free access to food stamps, schools, hospitals, etc without paying into the system.  And then when we enforce the immigration laws we bitch and moan because the price of produce and cheap labor has now gone up.

And George W. is absolutly 1000% wrong on wanting to give the current illegals in the country amnesty.  Talk about opening the floodgates.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lou,
Lou Dobbs did a report showing the increased cost of a head of lettuce if a living wage were paid to pickers, a whopping 10 cents per head! WooWoo!

I don't think it's correct to label all these golf course jobs as temporary, or non-career oriented. I know, or knew, or saw, plenty of guys who stayed at clubs for years and they were happy doing their respective jobs.   

I don't know the types of courses Racetrack George or Nick Cauley work for, but if they looked around at their facility I'd bet that they could find several areas of wasteful spending that could be trimmed, with those savings moved into payroll.

      


 

[Bill_McBride]

Lou, shame on you and your inflammatory posts.  You need to start reading other peoples' writing more carefully before you start up the blowtorch.

Bill:

I do not have strong views on this issue one way or another but I hope your post was tongue in cheek. 

Lou's post was well thought out, dealt with the issue thoughtfully and did not resort to personal attacks of any kind.  I often disagree with Lou but I admire the way he expresses his positions.
[/quote]

Jason, if you will read my comment above, you will see that I did not make a statement one way or the other about illegal immigration.  Lou is always looking to get engaged in inflammatory right wing conversations and I wasn't ready to do so at the time.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim - we've had some guys for 5 years and they do a good job.  Really nice guys too...  

Now, H1B visas - those are a different story (becuase they affects MY job secuirty).  Remember - all politics is local.

[Lou_Duran]

Bill McBride,

You don't know how disappointing your post is to me.

One of the things I do is read carefully and consider what people write.  Another is to try to be respectful of their person even as much as I might disagree with their opinions.

I didn't bring up the topic of immigration.  You posed a question which I thought deserved a response.  That you reacted as you did, and it is not as we don't know each other, is indeed troubling and indicative of something larger: that we have a real problem in this country discussing serious issues in constructive ways.

No Bill, shame on you for what appears to be a very closed minded attitude.


Jim Kennedy,

I am assuming that golf courses and farmers pay the prevailing wage subject to their operations being able to generate enough income to do so.  When you go buy a car, you don't bargain to pay more than what the dealer/owner is willing to sell it to you for.

Extending the Dobbs argument to the number of items a consumer buys in the course of daily life, the incremental 10 cents for a head of lettuce adds up to hundreds and thousands of dollars over the course of a year.  A complaint we hear from people who don't favor market outcomes is that too many good folks are left behind.  What happens as the price of everything goes up due to a mandated "living wage"?  May I suggest continuous cycles of higher unemployment, inflation, and upward adjustment of that wage?

In many markets, a good employee seldom earns the minimum and typically has opportunity for advancement.  A guy who can only cut grass after a year on the job is likely not a good employee or doesn't aspire to be more.   I've known many people with very limited education who've become very well off simply by doing what they do well, often, and taking a few risks.        

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

Agreed 100% with Lou on this one.  Take for example the price of gas.  A small 10 cent, (national average), increase at the pumps sends a huge ripple thru the economy.

Sure for you and me, maybe we just absorb that...but everytime this happens this not only raises prices of gas but also retail items thruought the country.  So someone now has to decide to pay for gas to get to work, or pay the utility bill.  Small micro-level actions all building and cresting into a macro-level tidal wave.

[Lou_Duran]

Bill McBride says:

"It's ironic that the enforcement in Arizona has been so stringent that the state is working on a new law that will set up a guest worker program to bring in Mexican workers.

"I promise I am not making this up."

Then, after trying to indict me for providing an explanation: 

"Lou is always looking to get engaged in inflammatory right wing conversations and I wasn't ready to do so at the time."

So, Bill, everything that doesn't fit what might be considered your rather narrow view of the world is "inflammatory right wing conversations".  I seldom if ever introduce these type of issues into threads.  Typically, I respond to people who offer opinions posed as facts or statements of common understanding which are anything but that.

I am sorry that you don't like how I think or write.  I won't apologize because I can't validate your cozy, closely held beliefs.  You are quick to characterize mine in a perjorative way.  I won't do so in kind to you nor effectively tell you to shut-up.

By the way, I opine on a variety of issues on gca.  I am not sure what to make out of the fact that I seldom hear from you on anything else other than on politics and economics, which, perhaps, is an indication of where your interests really lie.  It sorts of reminds me of the chap who implored us with a high degree of solemnity to stay away from political discussions in gca.com then in the same paragraph goes on to opine that Bush is the worst president ever.  Please!       

[Don_Mahaffey]

Lou,
The problem is, there is no legal way to get in, yet there is great demand.
Immigration has become the 3rd rail. If the govt had any common sense at all they would come up with some sort of guest worker policy that would work. The old tired story that they are taking jobs away is bullshit. Unemployment is low and working out in the hot sun is not glamorous to the current generation of young workers, and it's not because the pay is low. I'm sorry, but entry level golf maintenance isn't going to pay 50K with full benefits and five weeks of vacation. I’m sure you you think I'm kidding about kids expecting that, but I'm not. At least in TX I can find some people who want to work. You have no ideal how hard it is to find labor in Bend, OR.

A common sense approach to immigration would be great, but with politicians involved, I'm not holding my breath.

[Bill_McBride]

Lou, my original comment wasn't meant to be one way or the other on the current mess our immigration situation is in, just a wry comment on the fact that Arizona is bringing guest workers in as fast as  they are throwing them out.

Then your response is what I in my current stressful situation found to be a lecture.  That's what I usually get from you.  We seldom discuss golf issues although the bulk of my posts involve golf one way or another.  You are always ready to point out the error of my ways!

I understand we can't always agree on politics but itsn't doesn't have to get bitter.  I'll apologize this time.  You have been a friend for too long for me not to.

[Lou_Duran]

Don,

We largely agree.  I never suggested I am against immigration.  Are you saying that a common sense approach emanating from the political process is impossible?  If so, are we left to black markets and lawlessness?  What are we paying these guys for?  

[Lou_Duran]

Bill McBride,

Funny, I've don't think I've been accused of being professorial before.  It is never my intent on lecturing anyone about anything, though I am aware that I sometimes come across as having a propensity to tell.  I will in the future refrain from replying to your comments now that I've learned how you view them.  No hard feelings on my side.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan Hermann,
No doubt, and I have no problem at allwith importing labor. My only point in this is about making jobs pay what they are worth. If employers did that they wouldn't be in their present positions.
   
Don Mahaffey,
I'm not being facetious, but, if you can afford to pay the fees needed to bring someone into the country, help find them shelter, help them with food, etc., why couldn't you bring up some of those Texans for the season, and pay them a little premium for being away from their families. Maybe you'd only get a couple to do it, and you can fill out your crew from there.

Kalen/Lou,
The Dobbs finding was used as an example. It's morally wrong to perpetuate poverty by denying a living wage to the people who sell you 1/3 of their day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. I'm not talking about a college kid doing summer work, or a 16 year old who's making his/her initial foray into the job market. I'm not suggesting that the architect fresh out of college should be making what 10 years of experience should bring. The arguments you and Lou are using against bringing pay up to the same standards we enjoyed in the U.S. in the not too distant past are stale and old hat, but they are easy to use.  No offense.           


 

[Don Hyslop]

It is too bad this motto had an expiration date.

Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

Funny, I've don't think I've been accused of being professorial before.  It is never my intent on lecturing anyone about anything, though I am aware that I sometimes come across as having a propensity to tell.  I will in the future refrain from replying to your comments now that I've learned how you view them.  No hard feelings on my side.

How I view my comments or yours?

[Michael Powers]

It depends on the state.  No major changes yet in Mass, but I have been told they are coming.  As I understand it, in the near future it will be required that employers verify a workers name and SS #.  This will change things greatly at my club as we employ many illegals who just give us phony documents.  The club is covered because they are not required to verify the documents, just maintain them on file.

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