[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Looking at the design industry over the past couple of years I have noticed the growing community of architects who operate their own machinery move to the top of the success list in the industry.

ie: Doak, Hanse, Strantz, DeVries, etc...and always Dye.

My question is that I would like to learn what their process is on a project that allows them to do the finishing etc and how they gained the experience.  What size and type of dozer do they prefer on a job for finishing and where did they aquire their skills?  Which project was their first to show their early skills?  Which is their latest to show their growth of skill?  Trac-hoes where and how they were used on certain projects that you would normally not imagine using for certain things?

Where and how would you train somebody to learn these skills? ie a flat site, public muni design etc?  Would you recommend a certain piece of equipment first before learning to operate a dozer?

As a young designer I can see the future criteria is moving back to the old school (Bell etc) similar to a sculptor.  Getting  on a piece of equipment and using it like a pencil on paper seems to be a success model for many that discuss on this website.  I have seen some write that not everybody can do it but, I am interested in knowing stories etc detailing some of the guys that have had success with the equipment operating, so that I can see what steps and processes they have gone thru.

[Don_Mahaffey]

RC,
Our local community college offers a heavy equipment certificate. I doubt it would be necessary to earn the entire certificate in a program, but a couple of courses would familiarize you with the equipment and how to operate it.

The only way you will learn to shape is getting out in the dirt, most courses teach you how to build roads or lay sewer pipe, golf course shaping is an acquired skill offered by the school of hard knocks.

I'm not an architect, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I would advise a young man to get a good education and then hook up with a good architect or builder and learn from the ground up.  Good luck.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Don,

Thanks for the advice.  hopefully I will hear from some of the architects that learned to shape because I learned to operate various equipment (mainly pans,trachoe) with a construction crew prior to leaving for a design office.  I'm really searching for the answer to how they learned and what type of equipment.

Because when with the construction company I found that it was difficult to get to shape...found my self just pushing dirt or digging holes...others shaped(older&more experienced).

I always wondered if they just stayed late after work when they were in my postion and played with shaping somewhere on site or if somebody just said one day to go shape the tees progressing to fwy then greens.

For instance if I received a position with a firm like Doak's, Hanse's or Strantz's would they start somebody shaping tees and finally progress to fwy to greens.  I know it would probably start with something simpler like maybe hand work but I am just curious to see what is the natural progression of a shaper?

Because I think the future trailblazers of design need to be capable of the shaping etc...seems to make sense unless you want to be a multiple designs a year guy flying cross country.  I think Strantz has a great philosophy on his website.

Thanks Dan, where is your local community college?

[RJ_Daley]

RC, I also think of this often.  I have a son who has expressed interest in becoming an Operator.  He has checked in with the union Operating Engineers School, and they have a basic course followed by an apprenticeship requirement of 6000 hours!   The give them some basics at the school site first (which is a very sandy area in Coloma, Wisconsin, where they move earth back and forth) and intersperse follow-up training on progressively bigger-more complicated equipment at the school with apprentice work assignments at various jobs in the field.  

I don't know enough to say for sure, but I think it is very significant where the golf course shaper learns the trade.  Consistent sandy sites seem obviously more conducive to entry level learning.  Tight heavy clayey soils would logically seem like a very hard medium to work in, and an advanced level of learning to be effective.  I've heard dozer operators cuss a blue streak about getting fouled up in 'liver sand', and Doak recently commented here on another thread about how Axeland and Proctor did a great amount of their bunker work at Sand Hills on a smallish backhoe.  I'd think it is possible that an operator might be brilliant in one soil type medium and inexperienced to ineffective in another opposite type soil.  This whole question really gets down to the nitty-gritty of who are the best shapers... or even which architects and staffers are consistent performers in all types of terrain and soils.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

RJ-

You gave me a great way of looking at the future employment track when I return to the US.  Maybe I should also ask those designers out there to name the Top 10 shapers in the world and with whom they work for.  I would definitely be willing to find a job where they are working this Fall upon return and see if I can learn the basics of operating equipment and more from them.

I can definitely see the bunkers being built with the backhoe and what a nice job they did!!...I have also seen a small dozer spin the general description of a bunker on site.

Interesting that you can go to school for the training....I just think after this year I am done with paying for schools....gonna just jump into job-site "schools".

Cheers

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dick,
The reason for the 6000 apprentice hours of on the job training is that it is a national and state requirement for recognized training trusts. For Electricians, it is 8000 hours and five years schooling, but it goes by pretty fast.

[Tom Doak]

RC,

My first opportunity to "shape" was the day after a crew party at Long Cove, when Pete Dye and I were the only ones to show up to work the next morning, and Pete wanted to get the fourth green done.  So, he threw me on a tractor with a box scraper and started me off.  I made a mess for a while, then started to slow down and get something that looked like a green.  That was a perfect sandy site, so it was easy earthmoving.

I don't get on the equipment all that often anymore, because there are guys who are faster and better than me on my payroll and on most of the projects we do.  But it's still fun, and when I do the shaping myself, I'm sure I get a different product than I would have when I'm directing someone else.  There is a certain "flow" to the process and to your train of thought when you're sculpting the earth that is hard to replicate otherwise.  [A lot of operators listen to music while they're shaping, but I never do -- I'm thinking about the golf hole.]

The size of dozer we use to finish something depends on the nature of the soil -- a D-4 in sand, but maybe even a D-6 for heavy soils as in Lubbock.

There is a difference between "shaping" and "finishing," and over the years I have come to give proper importance to the latter.  Any shaper will tell you that the guy who finishes their work for seeding can make or break what they did on the dozer.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Last night a friend of mine talked about the method of "skiing behind a sand pro.  he said that a architect that came to the site had him drive the sand pro around the green and the arch stood on a board and used foot pressure to finish the green.

?-Would this effect the consistency of the USGA green depth since the gravel layer could never reflect this method of shaping(finishing)....or does it really not matter because the changes in depth will be minimal?  

Thanks for the reply...after reading Dyes book I couldn't help imagining the day that my neighbors would wake up with the reverse beeper sound from the delivered dozer in the yard!

[Mike O'Neill]

Listening to James Taylor while finishing a fairway with a SmithCo is like putting a hand in a well-fitting glove. There's no reason one can't listen to music and shape golf features. Or chew gum and shape golf features for that matter. However you gain your focus and (as Tom says) flow is up to the individual. I found that Prairie Home Companion was great for building bunkers.  

Regarding the issue of minimal changes to a green surface through finishing, remember RC that the grow-in super is going to come in and topdress the greens repeatedly over the first year or so. All of that sand is going to change the surface minimally too. You end up filling in dips and valley ever so slightly. But over time, it does change the green.

[Bill_Overdorf]

;)RC, I feel it is imperative to state the importance of the  designer's eye in the application by a "shaper". I too have spent many an hour in the physical application of the plan to the ground and the effort to understand the vision of the architect in his desire to transfer paper thoughts to site reality. If the man in the seat of the machine can't fathom the thought processes and desires of the author of the design the final look can only result in a very artificial application at the best of times.

I have spent many hours in the seat of a dozer intent on creating what I visualize as the most vivid replication of my thoughts that I can produce. Further to this, I have without fail held to the dedication that I refuse to request from an operator a task for which I feel personally incapable. The end result is that, at the end of the day, I can rest fully comfortable with the day's result as a portion of the final project profile.

All the best, Bill

[Slag_Bandoon]

Old thread brought up to emphasize importance of being qualified, or at least, understand the nature of, all aspects of design work regarding Sergio's worthiness of getting a high stakes design commission.  I think the previous adjacent post by Bill Overdorf makes a sound statement.  

Regarding : Can Someone Explain...     thread.

[Bye]

Shaping and finishing are worlds apart, at least in the ideal world! I don't think you would ever plant right into freshly shaped hole, proper finishing is required. BUT, I currently have a client who is building a golf course with no hand tools or finish machinery.

I have seen the "surfing behind the Sand Pro" technique. If you have an experienced surfer, it seems to work pretty well.

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