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Hart Huffines

Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« on: July 30, 2002, 07:58:14 AM »
After reading and rereading Ran's great piece on Hidden
Creek I remain astonished that the Pinehurst Corp. hasnt
hired Coore and Crenshaw to design a course there.

I understand #9 and #10 are delayed for financial reasons
but they will remain Rees Jones and Nicklaus projects.
It would seem that C and C could do wonders with
the right property down there, maybe something that
could rival #2.

Has there ever been a groundswell of members and
patrons that has changed a resort management company's
outlook on future projects?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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rhobbs

Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2002, 08:00:50 AM »
I was kind of wondering that myself.  I just figured that Coore & Crenshaw were booked up with projects.  Is there any time table on when #9 & #10 are going to be built?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2002, 08:02:35 AM »
What is the land like where they hope to build #9 and 10?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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kclarke

Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2002, 02:53:33 PM »
Comparing architects in a different era can be misleading. Apart from Pine Needles, every course Ross built was self contained in the area. Every other course built since his death was sprawling for the purpose of selling home sites. Hence, there is a perception that nothing interesting as been built since he died but in reality, no one has given an architect a fair chance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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kclarke

Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2002, 03:02:35 PM »
I apologize for not answering the question. Yes,  how can it not be a shame whenever the same architects build numerous courses in one area?  Club Corporation of America should know that it a bad business practice. Look at the minimal success of Dye's last effort at The American Club Resort where he went out of his way to doing something different and failed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2002, 04:52:06 PM »
kclarke:

your said:
>Look at the minimal success of Dye's last effort at The American Club Resort where he went out of his way to doing something different and failed.

Are you referring to the Irish course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2002, 02:30:48 AM »
Many people on this site are mistaken in assuming that Coore and Crenshaw are American icons. Their work, which fascinates me, is construed by business people as appealing to a small, esoteric niche. Perhaps that's changing, but not (yet) in the eyes of those worried about larger national marketing.

The folks who make decisions at Pinehurst are appealing, or trying to appeal, to a broad range of taste. I don't happen to agree with them. I think the better way to go - as with cable TV - is narrow-casting, not broad-casting, and I urged them to adopt a more unusual approach and go out on a limb with names who do not have work in the Pinehurst area. But they have opted differently.

Rees Jones' course, no. 9, is all cleared and ready to start construction once the green light is given. The Nicklaus Course is routed but work hasn't begun at all. The site for these is a 500 acre parcel about 3 miles south of the Pinehurst Resort, adjacent to The Pit. The decision to hold off work was made prior to Sept. 11, and I suspect the Pinehurst Company is waiting for a better business cycle before resuming. The land is spectacular, esp. for no. 9., and offers ideal elevation changes and natural rolls.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2002, 01:07:07 PM »
Brad,

I played Talking Stick North with some relatively high handicappers who had little or no knowledge of architecture. They loved it. I am not sure why anybody would think that courses like C & Cs that allow a variety of approaches to greens would have a more limited appeal than those which dictate the manner of approach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2002, 06:10:16 PM »
Reees and Jack are like saying build two more throw in's that nobody will want to play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2002, 07:18:42 PM »
Tobacco Road may be the kind of course that Brad was referring to - while its bold style might alienate a few, it has developed an extremely loyal group of regulars since its opening 5 years ago. Financially, it has been a success from the get-go, which makes it a rarity here.

Also, Tobacco Road is the kind of self-contained course with no houses that K. Clarke was pointing out as not existing in Pinehurst (with The Pit being another).

Club Corp isn't afraid to spend the money to get a product that could act as a draw for people away from No. 2. Unfortunately, despite millions and millions of dollars spent, Pinehurst No. 4 and No. 8 don't remotely have the same appeal to the masses as Mid Pines and  Pine Needles (and Southern Pines for that matter).

Which gets to Jeff's post about the appeal of how C&C design courses - like Ross, every level player can have a fun time.

Ross sent the stage by proving that you don't need multiple lakes and pot bunkers to have great course in the sand hills of NC. Whether Nicklaus or Jones could deliver such a course is a different question all together.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Hart Huffines

Re: Pinehurst - Going Forward(?)
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2002, 07:34:40 PM »
Ran, hope youre doing well, I'm up in Cleveland typing on WebTV in our room-pretty cool.

As a dues and green fee paying member at Pinehurst, seeing
something like the Hidden Creek course hits hard when the
"powers" wont use C and C, Doak, Dye, or even Stranz.

I know that the Jones family had the land and the inside
track but its Nicklaus that really hurt.  Maybe he will deliver
this time, but after National and the Gov. Club who knows?
I've heard they will continue to develop as many as 14 courses
so maybe we have a chance...

On another note, was Raleigh CC really drawn out by Ross
himself or would he have been in declining health by then.
Maybe Brad Klein can help us with that.  It was great to see he put a picture of Raleigh's 8th in his great book.  I'm sorry
we never had a chance to talk with Peter Jones on this and #2 issues.

The site keeps getting better...thanks!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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