[Mark_F]

Mark, does that definite plan involve Mick Gatto? 

Chris,

No, it doesn't.  It involves duct tape and a blowtorch.

Mark, there is a fundamental difference between the shares at The National and those which were sold at St Andrews Beach.  Members at The National own a share of the underlying asset, while St Andrews Beach was in effect a playing right.  It is an apples to oranges comparison.

I know you like to push this particular barrow, and I understand your point of view, but I don't believe having a share that was part ownership would have fundamentally altered how many people would have joined. 

There was substantial interest in the club through early 2005, but none of them would commit until further development took place. If they were concerned about playing right versus ownership, they would have gone to The National first, and I don't believe many, if any, did that.

Trust me, it was not having a clubhouse that cost them significant share sales, as well as other basic amenities such as proper walking tracks, on course toilets - lack of which cost them any hope of female purchasers - and practice facilities.  It was simply a golf course amongst a paddock.

Owning a playing right only hasn't hurt The Heritage, Sanctuary Lakes and The Sands.

The project can't have been helped by that maniac who was posting under a series of aliases on iseekgolf.com a few years ago.

You can't be serious. ISG had the credibility Zimbabwe's electoral commission currently does.

However, if you still believe it to be true, I hope you plan on reprimanding Bulstrode, Jarrod, Cisco Kid and Specky Magee for the damage they caused.

You told me that you know him.  I'd be interested in hearing his views on his own contribution to the demise of his club (he was true believer, after all).

How do you know it was a he?

[Chris Kane]

However, if you still believe it to be true, I hope you plan on reprimanding Bulstrode, Jarrod, Cisco Kid and Specky Magee for the damage they caused.

They weren't members of the club, so I doubt they're as disappointed about recent events as I'm sure your workmate is.

How do you know it was a he?

Well you did refer to the person as a "he".  Have you changed your mind, or you don't know him after all?

Owning a playing right only hasn't hurt The Heritage, Sanctuary Lakes and The Sands.

Those clubs were built by large developers, who had the cash required to complete the facilities.  I know I'd feel much safer handing over my money to them than to GCPL, who at the time had one other (incomplete) facility.  There was never any reason to believe that the course wouldn't be there 10-15 years after opening.  The same cannot be said for St Andrews Beach.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark, Is this report from the Herald Sun accurate?:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23533183-2862,00.html

[Danny Goss]

I had a good look at the proposal when it first came out as I was pretty convinced that a new Doak course would produce something special against some of the other courses that had been built down there. I dont think I was wrong about the course.

However the proposal didnt stack up for me. One early salesman kept telling me to buy it through my super fund (which couldnt be done) and that unnerved me. But on one "walk around with Tom and meet the directors" day I just couldnt trust the directors who were far too smooth for me. But worse than that, on reading the prospectus, I was being asked to buy a share in an "intangible".

Chris is correct in saying that, against the National, there was just no substantive equity in that share.

All that is in hindsight and in saying it I feel very sorry for Mark and many others who are going to lose money by investing in one of the top 10 courses in the Country. This is a great shame and the actions of those people who are responsible is shameful. And I dont think any of that crap on Iseekgolf had anything to do with it.

[Mark_F]

Mark, Is this report from the Herald Sun accurate?:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23533183-2862,00.html

Shane,

One or two sentences may be correct, but for the most part, the piece is nonsensical rubbish.   The Herald-Sun really should stop recruiting journalists from Dolly.

Unless I am reading it incorrectly, it seems to suggest only 100 people are going to do their dough?

The administrator did suggest last week that if enough members didn't cough up the $500, the course will probably close in the next couple of weeks, however.   Given that a great number of members are lucky to play once or twice a year, I am surprised that a hundred members forked over the extra money, even if it is in a trust account.

One early salesman kept telling me to buy it through my super fund (which couldnt be done) and that unnerved me.

Probably a totally different kettle of fish, but several members at the meeting last week were anxious to know that after the place is sold, when they would receive a letter from the administrator saying it had all been wound up, because they wanted to claim it as a tax deduction?

[RichMacafee]

Mark, Is this report from the Herald Sun accurate?:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23533183-2862,00.html

Shane,

One or two sentences may be correct, but for the most part, the piece is nonsensical rubbish.   The Herald-Sun really should stop recruiting journalists from Dolly.

Unless I am reading it incorrectly, it seems to suggest only 100 people are going to do their dough?

The administrator did suggest last week that if enough members didn't cough up the $500, the course will probably close in the next couple of weeks, however.   Given that a great number of members are lucky to play once or twice a year, I am surprised that a hundred members forked over the extra money, even if it is in a trust account.

One early salesman kept telling me to buy it through my super fund (which couldnt be done) and that unnerved me.

Probably a totally different kettle of fish, but several members at the meeting last week were anxious to know that after the place is sold, when they would receive a letter from the administrator saying it had all been wound up, because they wanted to claim it as a tax deduction?

I read that as suggesting 100 shareholders would lose $50,000, and the rest would lose a lesser amount (presumably because they bought in for less).

It's a bit rich calling it a 'resort'

[Andrew Bertram]

St Andrews Beach has closed it's doors with "members" playing their last rounds yesterday(Sunday).

The news even made it onto the evening ABC news service in Melbourne.

The saddest part is that there have been at least 4 groups "Attempt" to broker a deal to purchase the course over the past 9 months.

There is still some belief that a group of National members are waiting for the fire sale to purchase the course as their own private club.

[Shane Gurnett]

There is still some belief that a group of National members are waiting for the fire sale to purchase the course as their own private club.

Andrew, any indication of whether they will allow the riff-raff to keep playing there once they buy it?

[Andrew Bertram]

Shane

Sorry, they are being quite secretive.

They were all foundation members at the National and preferred it when it was much quieter down there. They would prefer to be able to walk on at any time and play so it seems that only limited guest play.

Financially they are not concerned about being profitable.

Sorry i missed you when you were at Yarra last time. When you come in again drop into the shop.

Andrew
 

[Anthony Butler]

St Andrews Beach has closed it's doors with "members" playing their last rounds yesterday(Sunday).

The news even made it onto the evening ABC news service in Melbourne.

The saddest part is that there have been at least 4 groups "Attempt" to broker a deal to purchase the course over the past 9 months.

There is still some belief that a group of National members are waiting for the fire sale to purchase the course as their own private club.

How many clubs in Australia have even been successful with the equity model? The only clubs I am aware of that issue shares that can be resold are Elanora and the National... I am sure there are others but they are in the distinct minority.

I don't think it's a membership model people in Australia are comfortable with. Most golfers would rather pay $10-15k admission fee instead of worrying about whether their $50k investment was keeping up with inflation... Your golf club is where you go to stop worrying about that kind of stuff.

[Andrew Bertram]

Anthony

The vast majority of traditional courses are joining fee based with annual fees.

A large percentage of newly built courses are on the equity model with mixed success. A new Norman course settlers run on Melbournes outer south east is by all reports an enoyable course, opened second half of last year and have alreday looked at other options with membership take up slow.

Nearly all new courses / clubs with equity have been built with housing.

The real challenge for clubs here are your 2nd and 3rd tier clubs. There have been a number of pay for play courses built in and around Melbourne and a great number of 25 - 35 year olds prefer that option rather than joining a club they can afford to join.

The traditional sand belt clubs in Melbourne, Royal Melb, KIngston Heath, Victoria, Commonwealth, Yarra Yarra, Peninsula and Huntingdale all have very healthy waiting lists even with large joining fees by Australian standards.

Andrew
   

[Mike_Clayton]

Andrew,

Which is why the traditional clubs should buy it!!

It seems there are at least three groups who want to buy the course - and then build the Fingal.
Someone will be playing golf there before Christmas - so long as the local, market gardeners don't buy it and use the irrigation system to plant lettuce.

[Mark_F]

Someone will be playing golf there before Christmas -

Mike,

Hopefully, you are not the riff-raff that classy gentleman Shane Gurnett, esquire, is referring to, then?

[Shane Gurnett]

Someone will be playing golf there before Christmas -

Mike,

Hopefully, you are not the riff-raff that classy gentleman Shane Gurnett, esquire, is referring to, then?

I doubt Clayton ever pays any greens fees Mark..

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark, did St Andrews Beach have any reciprocal playing rights locally that you can use until you find out what has happened to your shareholding? 

[Danny Goss]

Mark,

What did you make of the GCPL spokesman on ABC TV News last Sunday saying that one of the principal reasons St Andrews Beach has gone into liquidation was the lack of rain at their new San Remo course. This in turn delayed the completion and take up of membership there which ultimately caused the demise of StAB.

Buck passing if I have ever heard it.

[Mark_F]

Shane;

Yes.  At The Bass Coast Resort.  

Danny;

I didn't see the news on Sunday, although a friend told me about it.  I think it was Crozier?  He has a PhD in buck passing to go with a post-Doctorate in speaking out of your arse.

They - GCPL - were warned against constructing Bass Coast several years ago when they only had town water supply to irrigate it, but arrogantly went ahead anyway, and then watched $3-4 million in construction costs blow into the ocean.  Imagine the cost that ended up being four years later with interest etc added onto it?

St Andrews Beach went into liquidation because it was their only source of cash flow, and it went on renting expensive premises in Hawthorn, gross overstaffing, exorbitant directors' fees, high legal fees because of all those unpaid contractors suing them  and development costs at the aborted Taggerty project.

[Shane Gurnett]

Shane;

Yes.  At The Bass Coast Resort.  

Are you saying that the kind souls at The National have not offered to help out their homeless brothers with a few games to ease the pain?

[Matthew Mollica]

Although the course is not open for play currently, it is in wonderful condition. Greens are stimping about 8, and the tees, as well as greens, fringes and approaches are all showing signs of regular mowing and preparation. Fairway grasses largely look dormant. The occasional weed is peeking through the fairway but even they are few and far between.

The course looks better presented than Barnbougle did when it opened, albeit unofficially. Course furniture (tee markers, holes, flags etc) have been removed, but the grass is being tended to. Wonder who is paying for it? Maybe there's some hope for the course to see more play in future?

MM

[Shane Gurnett]

This place sold yet?

[Mark_F]

This place sold yet?

Slight differnce of opinion between what the secured creditors are determined to get for it, and what the offers were during the tender process.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know what to say about the greatest architect of our day leading the world in both courses built and courses closed.

[Mark_F]

I don't know what to say about the greatest architect of our day leading the world in both courses built and courses closed.

When he's hot he's hot, and when he's not he's not?

[Tom_Doak]

John:  There's a simple explanation:  I've been willing to take on jobs with marginal financial backing, provided there was the potential to build a great course.  If I hadn't been, you never would have seen St. Andrews Beach -- or Barnbougle Dunes, or Ballyneal.

The desire to build a great course usually entails a significant amount of risk.

Ironically, Beechtree was not one of those projects.  It has always been well backed ... it just turns out there is the potential for greater return from a housing development in that location today.

[Philip Gawith]

Mark, forgive my ignorance, but will the course stay open, just under different owners? Or will it get ploughed up? Or do you not know at this point?

I did not have the stamina to make it to the end of the Doak thread, but SAB sure deserved a whole lot better than it was offered there. I will always remember my visit fondly, and hope it is not the last round i play there.

When are you coming North to see us and refresh your  memories of golf in the UK?

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