[Tom_Doak]

OK, let's try this thread again without the argument.

You bet we thought about the wind at Pacific Dunes.  A lot.  It was difficult because there are really two winds to think about there, and while most of the summer play occurs in a north wind, you can't discount the other entirely.

Luckily there is almost exactly the same wind situation at Crystal Downs, so I thought about its effects there a lot.  I'm honestly not sure whether MacKenzie and Maxwell understood the wind at the Downs when they designed it, but their design works well in the varying winds.

Because of the wind erosion factor with our big flashy bunkers, one thing we tried to avoid was big bunkers on the west or north sides of greens -- where sand would blow out of the bunkers and onto the green.  We made one exception, at the fourteenth, and it's one of the toughest places for Ken to keep stable.

I mention this because I was explaining the idea at Shinnecock a couple of years ago, and I said Flynn probably did the same thing there, and we looked at the plan and sure enough ...

The Plantation Course at Kapalua is all about the wind (and the tilt).  Texas Tech will be a master's course on the wind, if nothing else.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, have you seen Whistling Straits?  Do you think it is routed well to consider the wind?  I only see #5, 10 and 18 there working up or down prevailing wind with everything else mostly cross wind.   Although the winds on and off the lake can be so variable in direction that prevailing wind is hard to identify.  I think the wide disparity in teeing grounds is good there to adjust for the variety.  

We all know that Sand Hills is a devil for them to cope with the winter wind and bunker blowouts, and really, I can't imagine the architect can defend against that severe of a situation through design, and must resign himself to just cope through ongoing maintenance.  It will be interesting to see that new Sutton Bay in South Dakota and how that course will cope with wind, which I assume will be more extreme than Sand Hills.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dick Mentions Whistling, I thought of Kiawah. Do I recall that the majority of holes at Kiawah are cross wind? And when coastal, aren't these winds more like gales? Can a novice assume that, Emulating the shepherds is still the appropriate placement for a bunker?

[Tom_Doak]

I thought Kiawah was north-and-south and that those were pretty common winds there.

My perception of Whistling Straits is that it wasn't that windy of a place, or at least the wind took a back seat to other factors.  I think that routing was clearly intended to put as many holes playing along the lake as possible, no matter which way the wind was blowing.

[NAF]

I've often thought Rye was very innovative when it came to all of the directions in which one is forced to play the wind.  In fact in may be the greatest test of cross winds inclusive of the Old Course that I have seen.  Trying to keep a ball on the 7th green with the south wind (hook) off of the Channel is the hardest shot I've had with a 7 iron in my hands.  I don't know if all of the powers that be (mostly Guy Campbell?) took the wind into account there but Rye requires superlative play because of it.

[Bill_McBride]

It's interesting that a west wind is never a consideration at Pacific Dunes.  Recently at Cypress Point ( ) there was a wind directly from the west and the back nine par 4's (11-14) were one tough slog into 40 mph gale.  And I can remember a squall that came up a few years ago at Pebble where a strong wind came right off the ocean.  Is this just a storm situation at Pacific Dunes?

There are few east-west holes at Pacific Dunes.  Not many cross winds to deal with.  Was that completely by design?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I noticed a very steep and narrow greenside bunker on the left of # 14, was that bunker's configuration wind related in any manner ?

[Tim_Weiman]

Dick Daley:

I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you are suggesting that the following would not be part of a "well routed" design:

a) holes that typically play into a cross wind
b) holes where it is difficult to figure out the prevailing wind

Did you mean to say that?

FYI, I've always felt that both features ADD to the golfing experience. Also, I don't know how an architect could lay out a hole running along the ocean without creating a situation where figuring out the strength of the cross wind wasn't fundamental to the player's dilemma.

At Whistling Straights, I did once enjoy playing #7 from about 210 yards into a pretty fierce cross wind. I took my five wood and aimed about 40-50 yards out over the water and wound up back left of the green, but at least not up in the hill. Golf probably doesn't get much more fun than that, does it?

Many times I've spoken of #6 at Ballybunion where there is also typically a cross wind, but one that always seems to me difficult to figure out. I don't know if this was part of any "plan", but it sure adds to the challenge of playing the hole.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I thought Kiawah was north-and-south and that those were pretty common winds there.

The Ocean Course runs east-west.  Our beach here at Kiawah faces south.  As the course sits at the very eastern tip of the 10-mile-long island, essentially sitting out in the Atlantic, winds can come from every direction but generally will osculate east to west or west to east.  They often shift with the change in the tide, only adding to the challenge.

A few of the interesting aspects of the location and geography of the island is that while many of the islands along the east coast face beach erosion, Kiawah actually is getting bigger (as Folly Beach and Isle of Palm wash down here).  And, during the winter months, people can witness both a sunrise and sunset over the ocean (an effect used in "The Legend of Bagger Vance" which some said was fake but really occures here).  The downside is that early tee times must hit directly into the rising sun...

Because of the layout and geography, there is no "prevailing" winds at The Ocean Course.  I've played it on consecutive days with opposite wind directions.  On the Par-5 16th, a playing partner named Bruce McGill (aka Walter Hagen) one day hit a driver-three iron and on the next day hit driver-three wood-three iron.

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