[brad_miller]

Taking the question for raters to the next level, what are the biggest "mistakes" made in rating the US and World Top 50's by all mags? Just your opinion. Example, How is Sand Hills NOT in the top 20 at GD?? Is this the biggest mistake? PB #1 at GD??........

[John_Conley]

Brad Miller:

Sand Hills is either #6 or #7 on the Golf Digest list if you toss out "Tradition" - a category it isn't really eligible for.  This has been discussed at great length a year ago.

To summarize my feelings... "if you disagree with the criteria, don't complain when you disagree with the result."

[Ran Morrissett]

Brad,

I am stretching your topic to the world top 100 in some of the responses below but here it goes:

1) I love links golf. The fact that Rye and Waterville aren't in there is a mystery as they are both very hard courses in relation to par, a factor that usually is helpful in getting courses included.

2) I love courses that are different and unique so the fact that Westward Ho!, St. Enodoc, North Berwick, Royal Ashdown Forest, Prestwick, Brancaster, Yale and the Plantation Course at Kapalua aren't in there is disappointing (though understandable, even if you don't agree).

3) I love Stanley Thompson's work and think his Famous Five should all be in the world top 100.

4) I love heath golf and think that courses like West Sussex,  St. George's Hill, The Addington, and OF COURSE Swinley Forest should be in.

5) Several clubs - like Fenway with Hanse, Yeamans Hall with Doak, Plainfield with Hanse and The Ocean Course at Kiawah with Dye - have done or are in the process of doing very good work to their already excellent designs. Such courses deserve to go from the US Top 100 to the World Top 100.

The above are personal biases that yield an eclectic list. Given the diversity of courses (!) around the world, what a boring waste to see any ranking that has a preponderance of any one particular type course (i.e. "championship courses" for instance).

Cheers,

[Paul Turner]

Ran

Looking at you lists, apart from 1, they're all from outside the USA.  Is Golf Magazine favouring US courses, and are the panelists well travelled enough to see courses like Addington and West Sussex?  

Or alternatively, are there plenty of non-US courses on the list that shouldn't be? (I guess Wentworth might be one).

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

England seems to be the greatest victim, more so than Scotland (where Royal Aberdeen should be in) or Northern Ireland or Ireland or Wales (where Porthcawl should be in).

Aren't Sunningdale Old, Ganton, Woodhall Spa, and Wentworth it for inland courses? I think so on GOLF's world top 100.  I haven't seen Wentworth but Sunningdale Old is #36 and I don't understand why/if it is any better than the five inland ones that I mentioned above plus potentially Beau Desert and Notts. Plus, several of England's oldest links as mentioned in my post above remain outstanding to this day, and are FAR more than museum pieces, as you appreciate.

Valderamma, San Lorenzo - who knows (?) but I'm more interested in seeing El Saler, Hamburger, and Morfontaine first, that's for sure.

Australia should have more but not if places like Royal Sydney and Commonwealth keep falling on their own swords and show complete disregard for the past excellence of their courses. Perhaps Clayton's work at Victoria can help re-instate it? I am disappointed that no one ever says how much fun Bob Harrison's Moonah course is at The National - if it's not fun then it  doesn't belong in the world top 100 but I thought it had the obvious potential when I played it 4-5 months prior to opening. Are the playing corridors not wide enough for the windy locale? Is the rough too dense at Moonah?

So, Paul, to not   answer your question, who knows? My own take on the balance is approximately 45% USA/55% Rest of World and GOLF Magazine's ran at exactly 60%/40% in their 2001 edition.

Cheers,

[MikeClayton]

Ran

Interesting take on Australia and I couldn't agree more -almost all of our most famous courses were better when they were built than they are now.
Exceptions ?
RM , Kingston Heath ,NSW, Woodlands.
The latest word is they want to flatten the rear of the 15th at Commonwealth for -wait for it - 'more pin placements'
It might be the best green on any par 3 in the country.
I suspect Chris Kane is prepared to chain himself to the flagstick to stop them.Fortunatly he is only 17 so the long term future of the club is in good hands.
Victoria is getting better but there are still several self-inflicted wounds that need to be repaired for the course to be taken really seriously again.
The thick rough at The Moonah course has been cut back and there are many fun holes there -2,3,4,7,10,11- but it just gets awfully tough from there especially in the wind.
The fairways,though,are plenty wide enough.
I think it slides in there just behind the 4 courses that are in the top 100 RM,KH,NSW and Royal Adelaide.
I never saw San Lorenzo or Hamburger but there is no question Morfontaine and El Saler are way ahead of Valderamma -which may be the most over rated in the world.

[NicP]

Mike,

        You will be pleased to hear that I have offered my "flag hugging" services to stop another massacre at C.G.C.

I would say that the one course that dosen't get it's due is Woodlands. My dad is a member down there so I have had plenty of oppurtunity to play it and I would have to say that it is a much better course than Metro, Huntingdale and Yarra (exept the par 3's I guess.). I might be wrong but No.4 at Woodlands is a great hole. (To name one of many).

[Chris Kane]

The latest word is they want to flatten the rear of the 15th at Commonwealth for - wait for it - 'more pin placements'
It might be the best green on any par 3 in the country

Mike,
Is it really that good?
Still, its an unbelievable hole.

[Brian Walshe]

Ran,

As Mike pointed out the rough at the Moonah has been cut back a lot (some people have said perhaps too much which is interesting) and the fairways are plenty wide enough in the wind.

I think 1 thru 4 is a just a great collection of holes with the 2nd being my favourite hole out of all 54.  If I had to pick one hole to play for the rest of my days the 2nd would be it!  The run home from 12 is tough and whilst I think 15, 17 (Kane tree included) and 18 are great holes, 14 and 16 in particular are just a little too much for most people.  Be interesting to see what happens over time and whether any changes are made to 14 (the double green doesn't work that well) and if 16 ever becomes a par 5 for the members.

I really enjoy the course and I'm taking Matt Cohn down for a game Wednesday so he can perhaps add some unbiased comments later in the week.

Brian

[Chris Kane]

Brian,

I think Mike C is right when he slots Moonah behind the big four - RM, RA, KH and NSW.  Those four are in another league, and I think the Moonah might be the best of those courses in the next group.

What prevents Moonah from being among those top 4?  The absence of any really good short holes.  Whatever you think about the Kane Tree won't change my opinion - its an abomination!  It could be a decent par 3 without that tree.

The trees on 18 could go too, without any heartache.

[Brian Walshe]

Chris,

Careful, they'll start calling you you Chainsaw Kane which might then be shortened to Chain Kane after you manacle yourself to the flag on 15.

As for the Moonah, I think the tree on 17 is excellent (if only because it keeps bandit kids off 15 honest) and I've found that the ones on 18 don't come into play unless you hit it way off line or really, really, stupidly long and right.  Besides I think we should differentiate between the over zealous plantings of the "Beautification Committee" at certain courses and 600 or 700 year old Moonah trees that pre-date every golf course in the world.

I agree about the positioning of the Moonah but give it fifty or sixty years and you never know    I'll ignore the short par 4 comment, otherwise I'd be forced to say that the lack of a true 3 shotter doesn't hurt RMW......

Brian

[Chris Kane]

Brian,

Yes, they are magnificent trees, and if they weren't in play, I'd be singing their praises.

Maybe the lack of a true three-shotter hurts RMW.  

[Paul Turner]

Ran

It's tough at the top!

I would venture a guess that all of the Top 10 of the Rest of the World in your Next 50 list probably should make the list, plus Kingsbarns, Notts and Worlington.  I think Walton Heath Old must be on the list already.  I think also one or two from Belgium and Holland like Royal Zoute and Kennemer/Haagsche.

How many from the USA 25?  Probably fewer, because your list doesn't have the big heavy weight names which are definites, like Casa, Hirono, Kawana...

I wonder how much support courses like Westward Ho!, Rye and Brancaster get?  Does St Enodoc make yours?

Your % breakdown is quite different from the rankings!

Personally, I wish the list would include more courses that bring something unique to the game.  Like WHo!, N Berwick and Brancaster.

None of this country stuff matters, we just want the most interesting courses shown.  I think it would be nice to have the list change a bit more in the 75-100 range.

Mike and Chris

Take plenty of photos of greens that are about to be butchered!

[Ran Morrissett]

Aussies,

Where do you place Newcastle GC in Stockon relative to your country's best?  Few courses (if any) can match its topography and the architects did a GREAT job in placing/creating the green sites - just think of the excellent ones on the front especially! The small bunkers are no visual masterpieces but recovery shots from them are quite problematic. Is there anyway that you could see it in your country's top five or six?

Paul,

Show me a list with Pennard and I'll show you a valuable list! And, yes, St. Enodoc is in mine.

[Mike Clayton]

Ran
I never really know where to put Newcastle simply because i've only played it twice -once in 1976 and once on a truly horrible day a couple of years ago.
It is really good -beautiful land,interesting holes but none of the sophistication of the sand belt bunkering that would really suit the land there -and put it right up there with the courses below RM,KH,NSW and RA  -Vic,Moonah and Woodlands.
I have always had it just in or just out of the top 10

It seems so few travel to see it which probably explains it's Aussie ranking somewhere around 20.

Paul Turner
Chris is organizing the photos.
I always loved Royal Zoute.The Hague and Kennemer.They really are terrific courses that would be over run if they were accessable and people knew about them. Better left the way they are now.

[Brian Walshe]

Ran,

Sounds like you are missing Stockton  

I play Newcastle a couple of times a year and it's a very good track.  Holes like 5, 6, 10, and 11 are as good as anything outside RM.  It's condition has improved a lot over the last 5 years but it's still a long way behind a few ahead of it.  I also have a problem with the 3rd and 4th.  You already have a 208m par 3 on the back so one past 220m on the front that 95% of golfers couldn't reach, followed by the shortest par 5 I've ever played at 415m seems a little strange.  Plus the 3rd is hardly a great hole.  Shorten the 3rd, lengthen the 4th, keep the condition improving, kill a lot of mozzies and you never know where it might end up.

OK if we look at Golf Australia's Jan 2002 ratings it comes in at 13.

1. Royal Melbourne West, Vic
2. Kingston Heath, Vic
3. Royal Adelaide, SA
4. Metropolitan, Vic
5. Royal Melbourne East, Vic
6. New South Wales
7. Victoria
8. The Australian, NSW
9. Royal Sydney, NSW
10. The National, Moonah VIC
11. Kooyonga, SA
12. The Lakes, NSW
13. Newcastle, NSW

My guess is that the ones no one argues with are RM West and East, Kingston Heath, Royal Adelaide and New South Wales.  That means that Newcastle would need to pass the rest to be Number 6.  I would have it in the Top 10 now and my guess is that after the Big Five, 6 thru 15 are pretty close anyway.

Brian

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