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Brian Phillips

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What are your favourite green sites?
« on: August 05, 2002, 05:50:51 AM »
I have decided on three green sites that I like and admire.  They are from three totally different types of courses but all are beautiful to look at and fun to play.  The first is the 17th at Sand Hills.  Par 3 of a length I can't remember..however I birdied it while partnering Jeff Brauer against Lester George and his partner.  Lester and Co. were getting hammered by me and Jeff when Lester pressed the bet on the tee.  I proceeded to hit the green and then hole a 20 foot birdie!!



This photo was taken from the hill behind the tee.  Here is a photo from a normal height near the tee.



The next is the 7th from Sunningdale Old.  Par 4 dogleg right of 402 yards off the back.



Again a beautiful site with a different type of bunkering!!

The last but not least is from Gulph Mills and is the 8th green.  The green is a Perry Maxwell green which is only 15 yards deep and about 25 yards wide.  It is a short Par 4 that TEPaul says he uses a 2 iron and a wedge to the green.

It is one of my favourite greens of all time.  The contouring is so subtle.  Perfect!!



What are your favourite greensites and why?  If possible try to post a picture of them.  Limit your choices to 3.  They don't have to be the best in the world just those that you have good memories on or just like them.

Brian Phillips
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

A_Clay_Man

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2002, 07:03:15 AM »
Brian-When I first read your question, I thought of what it was that makes a really great greensite, for me. I find myself in awe of the ones that fit so naturally into thier surrounds and backdrop. The shape of the green itself, is a 'big deal' too. I prefer character with movement. Clovers, hourglasses and boomerangs seem to get my heart a soarin'.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2002, 07:16:15 AM »
Brian,

Thanks for the plug on our golfing exploits!  

There is an old architectural axiom that says don't ask whether they like your design, just ask what they shot!  As good as Sand Hills is, I have to think you and I will always like it a bit more for being the first time to ever win five beers in one golf match (front, back, total, and two presses)


As for your original question, I usually look for a green in a gentle upslope, like GM 8, as it makes the green and bunkers present most naturally, whatever you try to design.

Next would be a Lahainch 6 type green, set in a huge natural (or in the case of my Quarry course in MN - unnatural) punch bowl.

Occaisionally, I like a green right at the top of a hill, with nothing but sky behind.

After that, even a day putting on a marginal green site beats doing most anything else.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2002, 09:00:44 AM »
Brian, it is 150yards! ;D  I agree with you that it is one of the best greensites I've seen.  It is one of my best memories of SH as well.  I hit my 7I on perfect drawing line to 12ft, but missed the putt. :'(  I only got in 27 holes that day however, and didn't get my second kick at that cat.  #s4,9, and every hole backside of Wild Horse.  #17 Bayside.  

Moving into other style greensites, I can think of a few at Lawsonia that are really exciting. 6,7,12,17,18; Yeaman's Hall, 16,17,18; Whistling Straits 17; Arcadia Bluffs 5. 9, 12, 18.  Heck, I have round heels and could name a hundred...

Sorry, I am still in the dark ages and don't have my own website to post pictures... :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2002, 09:21:58 AM »
4 at Jasper Park, difficult to imagine having to play into this green from 240 yards in 1930.  


14th at Jasper as well, though I do not have a great shot at the green.  The green is so small, and the slope and bunkering surrounding still so wonderful


17 at Seminole (no pictures)

14 at the Ocean Course


Some very good ones that came to mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2002, 10:49:22 AM »
Good subject!

I'm going to pick three because they have a common characteristic--or at least I'm sure two out of three do but I'm pretty sure the third does too.

1. #10 Oakmont
2. #9 Cypress
3. #13 Pacific Dunes

The common characteristic is all three are completely natural landforms, in everyway--surface, slope, contour etc.

Oakmont's #10 green surface is probably just about the same as the day Fownes first saw it and the green is apparently one of the most intense in US Open history.

#9 Cypress is so unusuall in shape and size and it can clearly be seen before and after in GeoffShac's Cypress book as a found landform used completely as it was by MacKenzie.

#13 Pacific Dunes sure looks like a completely natural landform green and surface in every way too and it is an awesome one. The only thing about this one is there's more there to use. Again, if they would add a minimum of 25 paces onto the back of that green in greenspace---BOOM!! That green would be talked about all over the place!

Brian:

I'm flattered you picked GMGC's #8--it's a good one and we were walking around on it the other day admiring the beautiful "flow" he got into all those contours on that small green. Other architects might have gotten all the contour transitions to the pinnable quandrants too abrupt on that little surface but Maxwell avoided that somehow.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dave_Miller

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2002, 10:58:48 AM »
Three others that I would choose , not in any order, are:

#7 - Aronimink
#18 - Merion East
#14 - Winchester

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2002, 11:17:22 AM »
Just a quick thought:
#2 Royal Dornoch
#15 Ballybunion (Old)
#10 Pine Valley

All one shotter's, but staring at them from near the same place each time gives me the wonderful willies, while still puckering my sphincter :o

Personal Beauty fav:
#15 Cypress Point
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

WilliamWang

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2002, 06:02:43 PM »
I offered to post some jpegs for Dick Daley, which he mentioned in his post above.  I'd be interested to hear your comments, Dick.

Whistling Straits 17th



Arcadia Bluffs 5th



Lawsonia 7th

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2002, 06:25:43 PM »
William,

That picture of WS 17 was taken the first year it was open.  With vegitation growth filling in patches of the bare cliff to the left of the green, it is alot more pleasing to the eye.  It is possibly the most terrifying hole I know of at 230 tips, 215 blues, 190-205 whites.  It has more room to play with than appears to the eye behind the cop bunker guarding the right front of green.  This hole is the cover of Golf Course Management Magazine last month.  But the photo on that cover doesn't capture the correct angle of play.  My picture above does.

The second one is #5 par5 at Arcadia Bluffs.  This double plateau emmense green with the knarly apron and cavernous bunkers guarding the corners lingers in my mind as quite a site to see.  As a three shot hole, it is an exciting yet fun shot.  As a risk to go for it in 2, it is terror filled.

The third is the boxcar hole at Lawsonia #7.  It plays from about 165-125 from various tees.  The consequences of short right or long are quite apparent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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WilliamWang

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2002, 07:10:24 PM »

ws17 looks phenomenal.  what's the prevailing wind?  i guess it's  a northwest wind and blows toward lake michigan?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2002, 07:18:35 PM »
William:

The pic of Lawsonia #7 is great.  That's the green where supposedly a boxcar is buried under it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mike_beene

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2002, 07:27:47 PM »
eighteen at the old course.Its amazing what influence the valley of sin has on this little bunkerless hole.I walked out there the other night and spent half an hour just studying the valley.As near as I could tell,it's three feet deep(about waist high)With a hint of light over the northern horizon,what a wonderously surreal experience.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom Doak

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2002, 10:32:18 PM »
The funny thing about this thread is that several of the green sites mentioned are completely artificial.  EVERYTHING at Whistling Straits is artificial ... the 14th at The Ocean Course at Kiawah is a lot of fill, and I assume that the 7th at Lawsonia is, too, unless it's really a buried boxcar.

One of the most beautiful green sites I've worked with is the third at Pacific Dunes, but that one is also fairly artificial -- we had to lower it several feet to make it playable.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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R.S._Barker

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2002, 11:13:18 PM »
I adore the 15th at Portmarnock Golf Club, priceless where it sits, and even if the wind doesn't blow - rare occasion that - it's as intimidating as any par 3 on the planet.  

There is somthing to be said about the 4th hole Redan at NGLA, and though most would agree that it's actually a finer Redan than it's elder brother at North Berwick, I'd be amiss if I did not include one from C.B.'s perfect work.

Ok, call me crazy, but the 6th hole at NGLA is simply gorgeous, what with the multiple terraces, and the incredible amount of variance you can find from one shot to the next based solely on pin position.

I had thought the 5th at Arcadia was actually a Biarritz, although Double-Plateau is just as pleasant sounding. Also, the downhill teeshot at Arcadia makes one think their ball is headed straight into the drink, and as R.J. mentioned, the thrill of even thinking of going for the green in two will cause your hair to fall out.

Now I know I might be guilty of sacriledge here - so please forgive my impunity, but seeing that image of the Sand Hills 17th hole makes me think that is an ugly looking hole..natural for sure, but ugly.

No, I've never seen it in person, and it may just be the angle from the camera looking down into the gaping maws of death..err bunkers that makes me say that.

No offense intended, since I have seen a couple other shots of the course, and there is certainly beauty there. just that hole has a certain look that rubs me the wrong way. I'm sure playing it would make me change my mind though..lol.

Take care,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brian Phillips

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2002, 11:53:21 PM »
R.S.Barker,

Don't worry, my wife hates it as well!! ;D  She thinks the whole course is ugly...

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2002, 06:24:26 AM »
13th at Pacific Dunes as well as the 12th. Tom had a bunch of great greensites there. I love the 4th,7th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th and 15th at Cypress. All so pure, beautiful and fun. the 8th,, 9th, 13th, 14th and 16th at Pebble are to die for too. thanks for the Jasper pictures too. a world class course that I yearn for in the doldrums of the Louisiana August.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2002, 06:38:25 AM »
RSB:  beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder... but just please to realize that while those pics Brian posted of 17 Sand Hills are very cool (to me), neither accurately portrays what the golfer sees on the tee... the shot is quite a bit uphill and the green is really quite small... the 1st pic is from way up above looking down, and shows the fairway bunkers on 18 as being straight behind 17 green, which they are, but they are very far away across 18 fairway... 2nd pic almost captures the golfers eye view, but it still taken from a perspective up a hill a bit behind the tee and shows way more of the green than the golfer can see... imagine looking UP at that greensite like a fortress and then maybe the beauty is more palatable?

I found it to be, in the words of the Papazianite/Stettnerian Dialectic,

SEXY.

Four tries and never made a deuce though - well done, Brian!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Lovito

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2002, 08:27:14 AM »
Great photos of #17 at Sand Hills. It is one of the GREAT green sites.

I would also add to the list #7 and #12 at Plainfield.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2002, 08:56:36 AM »
#'s 2,8 and 17 among others at Prairie Dunes, pics on this site at profile. Also #'s 7 and 9 at Fisher's Island, add #11 also. For that matter #4 "punchbowl" also although Raynor built up the punchbowl so that the sound can't be easily seen unless you play in the NBA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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Michael Dugger

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2002, 10:55:44 AM »
I am shocked that anyone could find something ugly about Sand Hills.  No offense your wife, Brian, but isn't this representative of the distinct dichotomy between two vastly different 'schools' of golf architecture.  Some like emereld green fairways and sharply defined bunker edges (Augusta).  Others prefer slightly burnt out turf and rugged bunkers (Sand Hills).  It is futile to argue about which is 'best', but surely the latter is more consistent with the notion of golf being a 'journey'.      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike Benham

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Re: What are your favourite green sites?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2002, 04:14:31 PM »

18th at Olympic Lake ...
8th at Pasatiempo ...
3rd at Spyglass ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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