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TEPaul

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2007, 10:05:17 AM »
"What I'm interested in unraveling is why all those writers who apparently knew Crump and Pine Valley so well assigned so much credit to Colt for designing the course right around the end of 1914 when they did not do that in writing either before or afterwards."

Phil:

I'll be more specific.

Obviously I realize with that statement above that no writer familiar with the ENTIRE creation of Pine Valley as it evolved from the very beginning to completion (as Tilly clearly was) is going to assign any credit for the design of the course to Colt BEFORE he first arrived there.  ;)

What interests me is how specifically Tilly chronicled in writing what was done there BEFORE Colt first arrived and how the things he chronicled before Colt first arrived is the way those parts of the course turned out in the end.

And then Tilly mentioned (contemporaneously in May/June 1913) that Colt was to come to Pine Valley and offer advice. Then he mentioned (contemporaneously in July 1913) that Colt had been there and apparently offered advice.

But then over a year later (December 1914) Tilly says that Colt essentially "laid out" or designed the course. How in the world could that be if he's already reported so much about what had already happened BEFORE Colt first arrived and that is the way those parts of the course turned out in the end?

The same seems true of Simon Carr and exactly at the same time---eg the end of 1914 and the beginning of 1915 (Carr's article in Golf Illustrated of Jan 1915) when the course was first opening for play.

Travis writes another article at the same time essentially saying the same thing Carr and Tilly did---eg Colt designed the golf course.

And now we have an article from Verdant Greene in the beginning of 1914 who appears to have been right there in Crump's bungalow reporting directly from Crump and Smith and the rest involved there that essentially Colt's role with the course was to alter the 5th hole and how important that seemingly small alteration was.

It is important to insert at this point that Colt came to Pine Valley only one time in May 1913 and he never returned again.

But then about 10 months to a year later (between the beginning of 1914 and the end of 1914) everyone is giving Colt credit for laying out or designing the golf course.

On the face of it this just doesn't make a lot of logical sense unless of course George Crump, particularly, was trying to make it look like that at that time for some reason.

Paul Turner says he thinks this assumption is just ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous at all if one just sits back and calmly tries to analze precisely why Crump and his buddies down there may've wanted to do that and did it.

And the additonal problem is that at that time they did not realize all that would happen in the next 3-4 years and what that meant about the design and construction of the golf course.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2007, 10:16:59 AM »

What I'm interested in unraveling is why all those writers who apparently knew Crump and Pine Valley so well assigned so much credit to Colt for designing the course right around the end of 1914 when they did not do that in writing either before or afterwards.

Is the explanation related to the thread I started last night ("early amateur architects") and could Crump not wanted to lose his social caste during this time the USGA was monkeying around with the definition of an amateur?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re:January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2007, 12:12:11 PM »
Joe:

Absolutely not. I doubt any amateur status issue entered Crump's mind for the simple reason he was not getting payed for anything he was doing in golf or architecture. Matter of fact he was the one doing the paying.  ;)

The USGA had no problem with any amateur architects practicing golf architecture as long as they didn't get paid for it.

I think Crump may've managed the news to some extent around the time the course was opening for play and getting press for that reason simply because it would look better if the course was thought to be designed by the guy who many felt was the best golf architect of that time---eg Harry Colt.

I don't know that everyone felt Colt was the best in the business but seeing as this information has been uncovered that Crump and his buddies were so high on Fowler and his philosophy and designs it sure looks like Crump et al at Pine Valley were pretty high on the Heathlands style and philosophy and both Colt and Fowler sure were two of the best of the heathland architects.

It seems to me if Crump could've gotten Fowler over to Pine Valley for a week the way he got Colt there, he probably would've tried to make it look like Fowler laid out and designed Pine Valley because if they had as much admiration for him as Verdant Greene's apparent first hand account said they did why wouldn't he try to make it look like that?

George Crump has never appeared to me to be in any way proprietary about what was going on at Pine Valley since it was he who fostered and inspired all that opinion and collaboration from almost anyone and that's exactly what all his friends and acquaintences said about him.

He probably figured at that time that the name of a famous architect like a Colt or a Fowler would look a lot more impressive attached to Pine Valley as its architect than his name, a guy who'd never done anything before in architecture.

I'll tell you right now if I was involved with a course as Crump was with Pine Valley in the end of 1914 and Bill Coore had spent a week with me going over all the plans and construction the way Colt did, I think I'd probably try to make it look like Bill Coore laid out and designed the course.

And why wouldn't I? He sure has a whole lot better and wider reputation in the business and in the things I like than I do.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 12:32:42 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: January 4, 1914 drawing: Pine Valley
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2011, 11:37:54 PM »
bump

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