[Matt_Ward]

Ben Hogan NJ:

I'll send you a copy of the magazine as long as you forward me your home or business address. Just send the info to mattwardgolf@hotmail.com if you're interested.

Please understand many people who did the Golf Mag poll are individuals who have not seen the various Jersey courses in question to the level of those who live here. Playing a course once and playing it several times is a big difference. Sometimes when you play just once you only see the broad outlines -- you miss the finer points.

The other factor is that ratings based on the masses will produce a result that I believe is little more than name association with the architect who designed it or because of some long standing recognition tied to that course or area of the country.

Ben Hogan, understand one thing -- I did course ratings for Golf Digest for 17 years. It always amazed me about the lack of knowledge of a number of fellow panelists because very few really have the expertise to make the nationwide cross comparisons and do the extensive kind of travel you need to do in order to be effective in any ratings process. Don't assume because a title says "Golf Whatever" that it automatically has more insight than others. Just because you have not heard of Jersey Golfer doesn't mean to say we don't know what we're talking about. We've been around 11 years and should not be discounted because some we don't carry the cache of a national pub.

Unfortunately, there are many people who give automatic points to a so-called name architect but will just "assume" that if someone does a course and is not highly known then the course must be a waste of time. That is rubbish!

Also -- when you call TD a "driving range" please don't proclaim your ignorance until you've played the course. I've already spelled out to you that "wide" fairways don't mean a lesser course. ANGC and TOC are two examples that prove my point -- ditto Bandon Dunes, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes, to name three others. Courses that are boa constrictor narrow are usually predictable and boring -- they favor only one type of play.

Pine Hill is a fine course and I'm not part of the anti-TF faction that sometimes appears on GCA. But, if you examine the strategic merits of each and every hole between Pine Hill and TD you will see what Mike Cirba and I are addressing. The range of depth and variations are greater at TD than PH. Please play the course before proclaiming who much off based people like Mike and I. Thanks!

[Mike_Cirba]

Big B;

You call THIS bickering??    I much prefer the terms discussing and debating, and it's always interesting to hear and understand and agree/disagree with other's viewpoints.    

Frankly, that's how we all learn.  

I also think that the discussion to date has been respectful and relatively tame.  Just wait until you've been around this site for awhile.  Then you'll see what bickering REALLY is!    

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

OK Mike and Matt.  

I appreciate all of your points and opinions.  I want to stress that I was not intending to bash TD in anyway but to question your dissatisfaction/dissapointment, if I man call it that, with Pine Hill.  As far as TD, I still have not played it, but plan to shortly (after my trip to Whistling Straits in two weeks).  I hope it offers as much diversity and strategy as you both say it does.

Don't worry, I will give you my opinion on it after I have played it.  Although you haven't heard from me until recently, I think you know me well enough to do that.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ben Hogan NJ;

I'm glad to hear that you'll be playing Whistling Straits shortly before Twisted Dune.

The courses, believe it or not, share many similarities, although TD suffers somewhat aesthetically without the Lake Michigan shoreline views.  

But, on each, LOTS of earth was moved to create something environmentally different than what existed there before.  I'll be honest...philosophically, that's not my cup of tea...I much prefer seeing a course that tries to enlist natural landforms creatively, because it's often easy to see the "seams", and because most times those courses are simply oasis that bear little relationship to their surrounds or local character.  

But, each is done well, and I felt that the artificial dunes at TD were actually much superior to those at Whistling, particulary in the way they are integrated and flow into the playing areas.  Also, the ones at Whistling looked more like little pointy volcanos, not the most natural looking shape.

So, I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts and comparisons after playing both courses.  ENJOY!

[Big_B]

This fall... Mike, Matt, Ben Hogan and I should play TD and discuss!!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Big_B;

I'd enjoy that, I'm sure.  Thanks for suggesting it!

[mike_malone]

I too have played with Mr. Cirba.He had a small dose of the chilidips that day.I was impressed with his recall of the course --remarkable.
 What i could not understand was when i said looking at the original Flynn drawings of the course with Wayne Morrison was better than going to Delihah's Den,both he and Wayne looked at me and said"No it isn't".That is when i realized how sick i am.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mayday;

I was born with the mixed blessing/curse of a photographic memory for two things....golf courses..

and women...

The chili dips (I prefer to call them "chip yips", which is really what they are) come and go, but some other afflictions take their place many days, most often in the form of a quacking duck hook.  Then, other days I shoot under par on the back nine at Riviera, so if anyone can explain it, I sure can't.  

[Matt_Ward]

Big B:

Great idea on playing together!

If you want send me your home or business address and I'll forward you a copy of Jersey Golfer with the entire public rating story. mattwardgolf@hotmail.com

Ben Hogan NJ --

Enjoy your trek to Whistling Straits. I agree with Mike the nature of how both were developed is clearly not "natural" in the purist sense. Nonetheless, the quality of golf is certainly thought provoking with each shot.

I didn't like the "Irish" course at WS because it REALLY goes over the top. The "Straits" course is a honey because it makes you play high level golf throughout the round. There is room off the tee given the windy conditions that blow throughout the property and I hope the weather when you're there is good because WS becomes even more of a bear when the fog / rain kicks in. WS is really tough with the quartet of par-3's. On any one of them it's possible to make a DB or TB if you get careless. I believe it's the 13th hole -- play to the right rear green position even if the pin is not there and you will know the meaning of quality iron play.

I'd like to see the big boys play the REAL back tees when the PGA goes there in '04.

As far as TD is concerned it is still a work in the refinement process. The elements of its design are noteworthy because Archie Struthers and his assembled team didn't fall into the trap in producing a course that resembles plenty of others in South Jersey. Yes, there was major earth moving on the site but one thing about TD -- you never forget what its like playing there. It creates a definite impression ... something many courses fail to do.

Like Mike, I'll be most interested in your impressions of both.

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