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Tommy Williamsen

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Overseeding
« on: December 21, 2007, 11:14:09 PM »
Many courses over seed Bermuda in the winter, both greens and fairways.  Many do not.  The surface of dormant Bermuda is pretty good.  Are there places where it is best to over seed and places where it is not best?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason McNamara

Re:Overseeding
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2007, 12:14:31 AM »
Tommy -

To some extent it may be a function of traffic.  Until recently I belonged to a club in Houston that got probably 300-500 rounds/month in the winter.  What started with overseeding everything quickly went to fairways and tees, and then tees only.

Nick Cauley

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2007, 07:30:12 AM »
Some places may be better than others for overseeding.  Florida,  Arizona, and HHI may be prime places for overseeding simply because of the snow birds that come down for the winter.  I think overseeding is starting to diminish with our watering issues and people are learning that the playability of dormant bermuda is great.  

Tom Roewer

Re:Overseeding
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2007, 07:59:04 AM »
Good point by Nick.  When you overseed fairways, or 'wall to wall" you have to keep the areas wet for too long.  This  is done usually down here in Florida at clubs who are selling memberships, realty, etc.  and want to present GREEN!! for those from up North.  I believe most people want firmer fairways to play on, and would love to forget the "cart path only" days of overseeding.

Craig Disher

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2007, 11:19:57 AM »
Prior to the 2005 Open at Pinehurst, the resort didn't overseed #2 in the winter season so that the bermuda would be stronger the following year. The only drawback was the lack of green - which more than compensated for the lack of mud on the ball. Would golfers really NOT play a course because it was covered with dormant bermuda?

Nick Cauley

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2007, 07:37:07 AM »
Craig
I think some of the golfers wouldn't play the dormant course, they would choose to play the overseeded course that looks better.    The bermuda is not growing in the winter so you have the same conditions through out the day and with the grass not growing the bermuda is not producing any more grain, which the bermuda is known for.  Like I said in an earlier post people are starting to catch on to the playability of dormant bermuda, It can play F&F.
 

mike_beene

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2007, 10:06:46 AM »
Most of the clubs in my area quit overseeding when they went to the 419 types of bermuda.I think it has a shorter dormant season(it will start greening in late February,I think).Now we dont have the transitional maintainance time.I think the golf is much tougher this time of year:the fairways are firm,the bent greens are hard and fast and the chipping areas are a little bare and firm.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2007, 02:06:32 PM »
Overseeding is really an unnatural process. The ryegrass competes with the Bermudagrass, even though the Bermuda is sleeping. When the Bermuda wakes up, the ryegrass's DNA goes into overdrive and attempts to live on...sending out enzymes that try and slow or destroy the Bermuda's awakening.

Overtseeding in transition zones is all about keeping the courses in America literally green and I do not mean "green" in the environmental sense.

Greens can benefit from a light dusting of winter grass. A trend in Phoenix/Scottsdale is Poa trivilias instead of ryegrass, although there are all sorts of approaches. At the Wigwam this year overseeding of greens is with a blend of Poa trivilias, bentgrass and some ryegrass. I will be interested to see how it goes.
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Joe Hancock

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2007, 02:20:07 PM »
Overseeding is really an unnatural process. The ryegrass competes with the Bermudagrass, even though the Bermuda is sleeping. When the Bermuda wakes up, the ryegrass's DNA goes into overdrive and attempts to live on...sending out enzymes that try and slow or destroy the Bermuda's awakening.

Overtseeding in transition zones is all about keeping the courses in America literally green and I do not mean "green" in the environmental sense.

Greens can benefit from a light dusting of winter grass. A trend in Phoenix/Scottsdale is Poa trivilias instead of ryegrass, although there are all sorts of approaches. At the Wigwam this year overseeding of greens is with a blend of Poa trivilias, bentgrass and some ryegrass. I will be interested to see how it goes.
So, is the initial seeding of a course a natural process, but overseeding is unnatural?

Wow. That ryegrass really despises ol' bermudagrass, what with all those negative reactions towards it. I assume ryegrass behaves itself when planted as a monostand on bare soil.

And, isn't a "light dusting of winter grass" another way of saying "overseeding"?

I was always taught that too light of seeding rates for overseeding actually produce less plants, but plants that would mature moreso than those from a heavier seeding rate. You know, competition for space, water, nutrients, etc......although maybe those fightin' enzymes come in to play here....


Had you stopped with "The ryegrass competes with the Bermudagrass" I would have been in agreement.


 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2007, 03:11:50 PM »
"So, is the initial seeding of a course a natural process, but overseeding is unnatural?"

If you believe that grass seed is a natural element. And that germination is natural. Then yes. "seeding" is natural. Of course, one must adopt the notion of artificial irrigation in regions where it is required.

Overseeding is not natural because it introduces a blanket turfgrass to an already blanketed turfgrass. In nature that would be atypical, and I am not certain it even exists in any region. What you do see in nature is independent (random) grasses taking hold in isolated areas of a dormant grass field.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 03:12:44 PM by Forrest Richardson »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Phil Benedict

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2007, 03:59:16 PM »

Overseeding is really an unnatural process. The ryegrass competes with the Bermudagrass, even though the Bermuda is sleeping. When the Bermuda wakes up, the ryegrass's DNA goes into overdrive and attempts to live on...sending out enzymes that try and slow or destroy the Bermuda's awakening.


Forrest,

I just love this post.  DNA, the struggle to survive, enzymes.  With all the Sturm und Drang about the decline of GCA lately, it's good to remember that you actually can learn something on this site.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Overseeding
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2007, 04:44:19 PM »
My course in South Carolina overseeds one fairway that tends to be wet and muddy.  It is amazing how long it takes to "catch up" with the rest of the course in the spring.

Won't dormant Bermuda tend to be wet because the grass is not growing?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Overseeding
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2007, 05:32:26 PM »
Dormant Bermuda needs very little water, but it does need some. The muddy conditions are probably from watering nearby ryegrass areas.

Perhaps a superintendent can chime in with even more information.
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

ward peyronnin

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2007, 08:16:41 PM »
Yeaman's hall was the site of my most memorable experience with rye grass overseeding. We were there in late Jan i believe and a freak snowfall had killed all the ryegrass.

This left a kakhi turf that wasn't bad to play off of but the wicked greens at Yeamans were probably stemping at 14- they were literally like my driveway. I watched a +1 six putt number eleven from 8 feet. The other problem this creates is the tremendous difficulty one has reading these monochromatic greens as there was no variaition in tans like there seems to be in the green of an "live" green.

So if one does not overeseed these greens should they then by final cut at a certain height or would that have any effect on the roll?
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2007, 10:02:46 PM »

Won't dormant Bermuda tend to be wet because the grass is not growing?

Yes.  If it rains very much, a course that isn't overseeded tends to stay wet for a long time since the bermuda roots aren't lapping up the water.  

Accordingly, if the greens are being watered at all, collars and fringe areas tend to stay pretty soggy.

My home course here in GA doesn't overseed, and hasn't for years.  I enjoy the dormant bermuda for awhile, but well before spring I am tired of it, especially once the poa pops out and the fairways get uneven.  
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jason McNamara

Re:Overseeding
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2007, 11:26:53 PM »
Tommy, are you trying to make the case to the club that the one fairway should not be overseeded?

Chris Cupit

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2007, 12:24:33 AM »
Over-seeding Bermuda with rye is very often a bad practice and there is no real need for it unless one considers the color green necessary.

This year in Atlanta with the horrific drought only a terribly irresponsible person would even consider over-seeding.  To establish the rye you must water right at a time when the bermudagrass needs less water and continue watering throughout establishment.  The course is often very wet and the rye grass has to grow long before its first cutting which makes for a horrible surface if one is interested in playing golf (playing the ball down).

A cool spring or tough winter combined with the over-seeding can lead to winter kill of the bermuda.  I'd much rather give bermuda the best growing environment possible since I am more interested in good conditions May through November versus November through April.

For courses in the transition zone that depend on winter play (resort courses that cater to snowbirds) may have justification since that is their main golf season.  For a course in Atlanta over-seeding in order to have green grass in the winter is a sure symptom of a membership that just doesn't "get it"!!



Grant Saunders

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2007, 02:23:48 AM »
It is most certainly necessary to overseed certain areas of the golf course.

Any high traffic area will suffer through the dormant species lack of ability to regenerate and repair itself. Pathways, parking/congregating areas will simply mud out. Walkways between greens and bunkers or other narrow frequently walked areas become fast unplayable.

Teeing grounds especially suffer as there is no recovery from constant divots. Same goes for collection areas on undulating fairways.

Poa trivialis is proving to be very effective as it is easier to remove with herbicides than ryegrass. High seeding rates seem to encourage a weaker plant which also assists when selective removal is undertaken.

Dormant bermuda does play well, however keeping the sward free from naturally occurring competition is not easily achieved. Poa annua, cool season grass species and weeds have no trouble invading the uncompetitive bermuda grasses. This now requires a range of various chemicals to combat. Many of these chemicals require extensive measures to ensure they only target the desired species for removal.

I look forward to good commercial seed for poa annua becoming available for overseeding. Well timed mowing height changes and forced drought stress are not only environmentally friendly methods for control but also cost effective.


Steve Okula

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2007, 02:31:55 AM »
"So, is the initial seeding of a course a natural process, but overseeding is unnatural?"

If you believe that grass seed is a natural element. And that germination is natural. Then yes. "seeding" is natural. Of course, one must adopt the notion of artificial irrigation in regions where it is required.

Overseeding is not natural because it introduces a blanket turfgrass to an already blanketed turfgrass. In nature that would be atypical, and I am not certain it even exists in any region. What you do see in nature is independent (random) grasses taking hold in isolated areas of a dormant grass field.


Forrest, any managed turfgrass sward, especially a monostand, is not "natural" by your definition, regardless of overseeding.

Grant Saunders post demonstrates a firm grasp of the issues.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2007, 07:25:59 AM »
To go off something that Ward mentioned, courses like Yeamans Hall or Chechessee Creek HAVE to overseed their greens for speed reasons. Those greens have so much contour, that they would be unfair if there wasnt any grass to slow putts down. Granted they don't overseed at a heavy rate, but enough to make things playable. I know that both those courses overseed at a lite rate. A snowfall will not kill the ryegrass-it's a cool season grass-but I know that Mr. Yonce doesn't overseed at a heavy rate. Their fairways are 419 and the greens are champion.
  I'm an not a fan of overseeding and more than understand the benifits of not doing so, but things are much different than they were even 5 years ago. We have some many chemicals at out finger tips to slowly remove the ryegrass, that it CAN really make transition go smoothly. A combination of chemical, low mowing heights and careful water management, the transitions are not what they used to be.
  In my time at Long Cove, courses in the Hilton Head/Charleston area would still mow or roll the dormant putting surfaces, depending on the weather. It's a good idea to begin raising the height of cut in October to leave a little turf there for the winter wear and tear.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Asst. Supt.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 07:26:13 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

John_Cullum

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2007, 09:25:23 AM »
A course in a location like Charleston, Hilton Head or even Jacksonville should probably overseed thouroughly and not worry about the transition.

About 6 or 8 years ago Savannah Golf Club took a hard look at their Summertime maintenance practices. It was discovered that they devoted all of their time and energy to worrying about the condition of the course in the summer. The course was in its best condition in July, August, Sept. On analysis, it appeared that they had fewer rounds in August than any other month. It just gets so prohibitively hot and humid in July and August people quit playing golf.

Properly managed, the winter grass will hold up pretty good until early June. The only downside in my experience is that it will be pretty soggy in the fall
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 09:26:58 AM by John_Cullum »
Raynor was a hack

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2007, 09:52:45 AM »
Steve Yes, "natural" in definition requires one to consider artificial irrigation and management, as I noted above.

And, yes, traffic areas do need overseeding in many climates, but not all. and not for all varities of grass. In Phoenix it is generally yes because we have sustained cold periods and the warm season grasses do go completely dormant. However, in some parts of Mexico where we have less intensive winters, we can see growth of the turf even in "dormant" months in this case, overseeding is contraindicated unless the color green is an important factor.

Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2007, 10:24:26 AM »
John,
 Having seen and know the management team at Savannah Golf Club, I'm curious as to your statement above. They still overseed tees, greens and fairways, partly because they do not have cart paths throughout and the overseed protects the bermudagrass. Possibly the reason so much time was devoted to summertime maintenance was because of transition and summertime is also the time of year for verticutting, topdressing and aerifying. As a manager of turfgrass, there is NO WAY that I'd want to have ryegrass until June, which would not be properly maintaining grass. Bermudgrass needs 100 days of uninterrupted growth to gain what was lost to overseeding. Most courses in that area overseed the first of October and if you're holding on to ryegrass until June, you're going to be in trouble and things will be ugly!
  I completely disagree with your statement that courses in the Charleston/HHI/Jacksonville should overseed and not worry about transition. We always had a lot of golf at Long Cove in the summer and many of the courses in those areas are housing developments, meaning many of those people live there year round and play golf year round. That's one of the biggest reasons NOT to overseed-to have a better playing surface year round.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

John_Cullum

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Re:Overseeding
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2007, 03:12:20 PM »
The problem at Savannah Golf Club was that without overseeding, the conditions in January, February and March were atrocious. The place looked like a herd of buffalo had run through.

Now that could have somewhat the fault of the superintendent. He was eventually fired, but I can't say whether he really deserved that fate. The membership is always kept a little bit in the dark at SGC. I believe his successor has also been discharged, I think you probably know him Anthony.
Raynor was a hack

Kyle Harris

Re:Overseeding
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2007, 03:20:57 PM »
John,

It's always nice to have grass growing during the busy season - that way damage recovers quickly.

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