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Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

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Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2002, 03:22:06 AM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2002, 08:30:26 AM »
Dave, the design would have to be like TOC so you could play it in reverse.  Instead of hitting the bars downtown at happy hour, you could play yourself back after work too. Think of the health benefits of that.  Put a parkinglot next to thefirsttee/18th green.  (behind some containment mounds of course so that the parking lot wouldn't be unsightly).

How much 'clout' would it take to get that done? ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2002, 08:47:45 AM »
RC, thanks for the Southern Gailes link.  Certainly looks to be in the Kingsbarns style but less spectacular.  I wish they could have come up with a more original name; it's as uninspired as "Pacific Dunes".

Rich

Do you think there is much undeveloped links land left in Britain?  Ireland surely has plenty, but I can't think of anywhere in England other than the huge tract (3-4 courses worth) at Saunton, in South Wales there's another large area (about 2 courses worth) next to Pyle and Kenfig.  Not sure about the far west coast of Wales?  In Scotland, I can only think of the area to the north of Machrihanish.  But I've heard that there is some links land in the far North West?

It's probably all academic anyway, I think all that land is off limits (Sites of Special Scientific Interest).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2002, 09:56:04 AM »
Paul

It's all in the usual places.  There's land for at least 2-3 great new courses just at Dornoch.  Probably a course at each of Brora, Golspie and Tain.  Still quite a bit of undeveloped land around St. Andrews (e.g. Leuchars).  Quite a bit of linksland in East Lothian on some of the great old estates there (Earl of Weymss, etc.).  Also south of Dunbar into Berwickshire and England.  I think in England also down the Cumbrian coast (Silloth to Seascale).  Not sure about north of Machrihanish and I'm almost positive that there is no real linksland in the Northwest of Scotland.

Most importantly, if you expand linksland to include headlands and blufflands (word?) like the land at Bandon, the number grows exponentially.  There are sites in the North and Northwest that would make Old Head look like Torrey Pines.

You are probably right about SSI, but this can be averted, I think, or Skibo never would have been built.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SteveSailer

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2002, 02:14:05 PM »
There's an enormous amount of lakefront dunesland in Western Michigan along the Lake Michigan coast. Unfortunately, most of it has cabins sitting along the bluff, so you'd have to buy out a lot of homeowners, which is expensive. One Ballybunion-type property with no homes on it is in the resort village of Saugatuck, which is only a few hours from Chicago, about 50% closer to the big city than Traverse Bay. It is currently used for dune buggy rides, so it's not like building a golf course on it would ruin the untouched natural environment.

I've never seen it, but I suspect there is superb golf land on Vandenberg Air Force base, which covers about 20 miles of the Pacific coastline west and north of Santa Barbara. Then, north of Vandenberg are about five miles of cliffs (Point Sal), followed by 20 miles of sand dunes up to Pismo Beach. There is also inland land that definitely used to be dunes, like the Eucalyptus covered mesa in near the Black Rock golf course.

Also, for inland courses, Highway 1 inland from Vandenberg runs through some classic California grassland and oak trees rolling hills. Practically nobody lives there, so perhaps land would be cheaper than elsewhere in California.

Steve Sailer
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Pazin

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Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2002, 04:32:03 PM »
Rich -

I've been trying to post this for the last two days, but my computer keeps crashing: why do you feel PD & Friar's Head are only 7's(other than your general contrarian nature:))? What would/could make them 10's?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2002, 06:21:29 PM »
Calm down George! :o

I said the SITES on which PD and FH are located are 7's, not the courses themselves.  PD has some very varied and interesting terrain, but a bit too much variety for my taste, which prefers some sort of thematic cohesion on a golf course.  Also, there is one stretch of flatland in the middle which is very average golfing territory.  FH is 1/2 terminal moraine and 1/2 potato field.  The land forms on the former holes are dramatic, but not really unique.  The latter holes show what talents like C&C (and Bakst) can do on a very, very average piece of land.

Of course, I'm also being contrary--hoping that someone who disagrees with me can take the time to explain why I am so horribly wrong! ;)
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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2002, 08:21:59 PM »
You know, there's a lot of land available right next to Shadow Creek...Imagine the courses we could build there!!!

(Just kidding guys)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2002, 09:32:16 PM »
<delete repeated thread>
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2002, 01:49:20 AM »
:) Regional provisionalism rears its ugly head... The finest inland links course in the US (that I've played): Sand Hills ;D. The finest coastal links course in the US (that I've played): Pacific Dunes ;D (though Whistling Straits is TOUGH as well as stunning)... Like C & C said, there are another 10 great courses to be found outside of Mullen, NE... South of Fergus Falls, MN, they have miles of dunes and pine that would make for a gem... Same for Big Lake, MN... West of Arcata in Humboldt County, CA miles and miles of windswept dunes linksland... Florence, Or... For that matter, Lincoln City, OR (for those of a budget ;))
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2002, 01:53:26 AM »
:) And then there is the entire coast of The Netherlands (aka Holland), especially Friesland in the North (Eel farming Calvinists) ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

redanman

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2002, 04:44:31 AM »
As good sources discuss the rumor, Bayberry Land is already completely done on paper.  I believe three holes will be on the water.  Estimated time is 5 years (yeah, sure).  I am afraid somehow that it will be disappointing and as Patrick mentioned, it won't live up to its neighbor.

Apparently it will be built.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2002, 05:25:05 AM »
George Pazin:

You asked Rich Goodale why he considers the natural sites of Pacific Dunes and Friar's Head only 7s naturally instead of 10s. You actually sort of started to answer your own question by inlcuding in parentheses "(other than your (Rich's) own contrarian nature)". That is the answer--100% of the answer.

And Rich asked if someone who disagrees with him would take the time to explain to him how he can be so horribly wrong.

OK, Rich, I'll take the time to explain it to you and supply you with the answer of how and why you can be so horribly wrong.

It's the very same answer that the famous Harvard professor gave to his Freshman class of young, potentially brilliant, but completely contrarian students who continuously asked him "why, why, why" to everything and anything he was telling them.

His ultimate and all encompassing answer was; "JUST BECAUSE!!!"

Of course, please read and understand the actual reality of that answer which is; "Because I say so!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2002, 09:19:58 AM »
Tommy

Great to hear that my primary child-rearing technique is endorsed by Harvard professors!  But....if you really believe that the land PD and FH are being built on are more than "7's", you need to get out more!

....and give Doak and C&C more credit.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2002, 11:48:43 AM »
Rich:

I don't disagree with you! Probably not much more than two different ways of looking at the same coin!

And just following a nice and edifying email conversation with Kenneth Bakst, probably exactly how Coore & Crenshaw (and Doak) would prefer that golfers look at their courses!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2002, 05:11:06 PM »
Rich Goodale,

I feel the FH site is better than a 7 for several reasons.

1.     Minimal environmental issues on the site.
2.     100-200 foot bluff above Long Island sound.
3.     Rolling terrain south of the sound
4.     Dunes further south
5      Open land further south
6      The variety and combination of the above.
7.     Site subject to WIND.
8.     Site not as isolated as Mullen and Bandon
9.     Site has other great courses nearby
10    Site can't be claimed by Tom Paul to be GAP course.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2002, 05:33:42 PM »
PD site a 7??  Or was that on a scale of 1-6?  If not, I guess I need to get out more as well!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2002, 05:46:13 PM »
Pat:

You're absolutely right that Friar's Head is not within GAP's reach--but any of your golf clubs in North Jersey are! Technically our limit is 150 miles from Penn's Hat (cental Philadelphia).

I think GCGC is right at about our limit road-wise and I'm going put the odometer on it! If it happens to be over the limit, I'll either find a shorter route or take a plane at it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2002, 06:25:25 PM »
Thanks Patrick

Your criteria 1 and 8-9 I would consider to be circumstantial, rather than directly attributable to the site.  I agree that FH is well endowed with points 2-7, I just feel that there are many other sites better endowned out there, some with and some wihtout golf courses on them.  AS for #10, what does a mid-range clothing store have to do with golf?  Or is ther some other GAP out there.........?

Mark F

You get out more than enough.  You just need to set your standards higher!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2002, 06:50:19 PM »
Rich:

Why do you think the Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) has such excellent revenue? We've been around 104 years and every one of those mid-range clothing stores (GAPs) within a 150 mile radius of Penn's Hat have to pay me a substantial kick-back for using our name in our area if the managers' of those stores value their kneecaps, and so far all do! Some of them have tried to pay me in merchandise but I'm strictly a Tommy Bahama man!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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K.Hegland

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2002, 08:00:46 PM »
Plattalia Club, Frankfurt MI
Its under some serious construction, but when I was there in March, I have to admit, its a pretty special place!!!  I can't wait to get back there!!!  Only a matter of time ;D ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2002, 08:04:02 PM »
Tom

Just think of all the money you could have made if 104 years ago someone had had the foresight to call their associaiton the Council Of Keystone Eaglemesiters"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2002, 08:38:41 PM »
Rich:

What's an Eaglemesiter? Did you misspell that and/or mean meister? But even if you meant Eaglemeister, I don't know what that is either. Possibly an artisan skilled at making the old American Eagle bicycle or possibly an Eaglemeister is some kind of rare German field mouse?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2002, 10:06:13 PM »
Rich -

I knew you were referring to the sites, not the courses - not that I would care what number you or anyone else assigns to the course, anyway - I subscribe to your michelin star system.

Judging by your description, I do think you're being coy - if a site had only your type of terrain, whatever that is, you'd probably downgrade it as too much of a good thing or, simply, repetitious. :) :)

Any US courses jump out as having better sites?

For sake of comparison, since I've been there, what would you rate Applebrook's site? The site to me doesn't look like anything other than land I drive by every day of the week, yet Gil Hanse & Co. looks like they did some mighty fine work discovering the site's attributes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2002, 10:27:40 PM »
Tom

I was struggling to come up with an "E."  "Eyjits," a nice old Glaswegian term, just didn't seem appropriate, so I coined a word which was meant to convey one who has a mastery of eagles on the golf course.......

George

I don't think the Applebrook land is more than a 5 or a 6.  But, then again, neither is Merion........... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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